WC/WT sparring

[Tensei85]

No worries mate , you definitely are making a good point.
It doesn't matter how much I pretend to be like Mike Tyson I'm never going to be able to throw a punch like him ( though I still could bite your ear off in the clinch lol . )

Its just that at our academy a lot of people seem to have to come from some other style , they got fed up with what they were doing and decided to give Wing Chun a try , so we were pretty lucky in that regard.
Could also be that over here in Australia we are not allowed to carry weapons so martial arts are quite popular.

I remember one of my senior instructors was a south pacific TKD champion , he could trap your hands in chi sau and drop an axe kick on your shoulder which I always thought was a nice party trick.

But at the end of the day you have to do the best with the people you've got , and every other martial art style would face the same problem too.

They all would tend to train in a little bit of a bubble unless they have a few people that have done other stuff before.

Also I might point out that its usually not the trained fighters you have to worry about on the street , they are usually too exhausted from their training sessions and are safely tucked up in bed.

Its the loud mouth jerk off wannabees , full of the drink , walking around in packs that think it might be amusing to hassle you and your missus if you have the misfortune of encountering them on a night out .

They are the ones you have to watch out for in my opinion.

I agree, makes a lot of sense. Personally I was also one of the guys that got fed up with some of the other systems I trained in for years before I started Wing Chun so I can understand your point & the feelings of your classmates/students.

Personally I think it depends on what your training for, definitely loud mouth street punks or drunks at a bar are always a paramount scenario to train realistically for. More of the W.C. verses Streetfighter approach like you mentioned. Makes sense.

But then there are those that may be training for more of a sports competition atmosphere & for those I would recommend mixing up the game play and rounding out there options with the training provided by top notch or even decent competent Martial Artist from more of a MMA type of approach. Though I don't feel the actual MMA training device is 100% needed as CMA contains the 4 ranges Tek(kicking), Da(striking), Suai(throwing), Na(locking) however as with anything there are always specialists in those fields. Like BJJ for grappling, Kickboxing for kicking, Muay Thai for elbows, knees & kicking methods... (And the fact that MMA is not a style anyways)

A CMA approach could be Shuai Jiao for Throws, Combat San Da is awesome training!
Northern Shaolin systems like Eagle Claw, Tong Long or a lot of others have a lot of great kicking methods, of course Wing Chun is excellent with short distance striking ranges & low kicks, & a lot of systems have outstanding Qin Na training devices.

So with that in mind I feel Wing Chun training as a whole can benefit from these devices found in most CMA styles. However I have seen these in Wing Chun systems like Chi Sim, I believe Pao Fa Lien, Hung Fa Yi & Hek Ki Boen also contain the joint locking & throwing platforms. So that brings another question into acccount at what time frame were these left out, not included, or not there to begin with in the Ip Man system & a lot of other Wing Chun systems?

It seems its one area that is lacking in the Wing Chun circles & the reason why a lot of pract's have been training Kickboxing & BJJ, etc... to round out there game. (Not to downplay those systems like BJJ, MT, KB, etc... as they really truly are specialists in there field of expertise)

Haha, I know what I just posted doesn't really have anything to do with what you've posted or what this thread is about. (Sorry I run off on tangents)
But it makes for constructive conversation...

 

[Nabakatsu]

In any thread I start, ( as if it matters ) I don't care what you have to say as long as it's not offending anybody, the information is good and appreciated, thanks a lot everyone, lot's of good contributions!

 

[zepedawingchun]

Just as an end note.... I think at the end of the day you are going to use anything ina streetfight if it helps you survive. I don't mind a chunner doing tan sao and then throwing a right hook if its going to work.

It might not strictly be wing chun, but not doing it because it isnt strictly chun is silly

Chun does not have the answer to everything. It isnt an ultiomate art. It is a good art that does work in street situations. Yet chunners should not be afraid to use other skills as well

The best example of this is if you get a big guy attacking you and your punches arent powerful enough to stop them. Sure you might say 'I wish Id trained my punches harder etc', but instead of whinging, just slip into a choke and you will stop your opponent! (And no, I didnt steal that from Rocky 3). Sometimes using other techniques is beneficial. It doesnt mean your art is weak, just that you will be a tougher opponent if you master wing chun PLUS another art

You make it sound like Wing Chun doesn't utilize a hook, it does. In most of the family lines, it can be found in the 3rd part of Biu Jee. Some lines use a phoenix eye strike, some a hook. Uppercuts are also trained in some of the WC family lines, usually found in Chum Kiu. Also, the concepts for grappling and joint locks are there in the forms. You just have to find them. The system is more complete than most know, you just have to search for what you're looking for and be creative.

 

[Poor Uke]

You make it sound like Wing Chun doesn't utilize a hook, it does. In most of the family lines, it can be found in the 3rd part of Biu Jee. Some lines use a phoenix eye strike, some a hook. Uppercuts are also trained in some of the WC family lines, usually found in Chum Kiu. Also, the concepts for grappling and joint locks are there in the forms. You just have to find them. The system is more complete than most know, you just have to search for what you're looking for and be creative.

Oh FFS!

Why try and invent the wheel when everybody else is riding motorbikes?

It just such a backward approach IMO. I am all for creativity but seriously the amount of times I have heard this you just wouldnt believe, then to be treated to a just aweful demonstration of what somebody has "found" in Biu Gee.

Yes there are joint locking techs that can be found in Wing Chun but c'mon it is nowhere as sophiticated as it is in arts that activily train them and are known for training them.

In another thread here somebody asks whats wrong with chunners. Well this is a classic example!

 

[mook jong man]

Oh FFS!

Why try and invent the wheel when everybody else is riding motorbikes?

It just such a backward approach IMO. I am all for creativity but seriously the amount of times I have heard this you just wouldnt believe, then to be treated to a just aweful demonstration of what somebody has "found" in Biu Gee.

Yes there are joint locking techs that can be found in Wing Chun but c'mon it is nowhere as sophiticated as it is in arts that activily train them and are known for training them.

In another thread here somebody asks whats wrong with chunners. Well this is a classic example!

I think you are taking Zepedawingchun far too literally , he says using the concepts not exactly the same techniques.

For example in chi sau I can either decide to pierce straight through with my tan sau and strike your neck or I can decide to go straight past your neck , parry your other arm across and put you in a head /arm strangle , sweep your leg and take the fight to the ground. I'm using exactly the same tool , just for different purposes.

Other arts specialise in the grappling range and are better at it that is true , but where Wing Chun can add value to those other arts is teach you how to efficiently penetrate through the defences and get into grappling range .

We already do what could be considered a vertical grappling drill in chi sau.
You still have to have an outside knowledge of chokes and strangles , but the tools are already there in Tan , Bong and Fook to enable you to enter into grappling range efficiently.

Now onto joint locks , I'm not a big fan .
What usually happens is that you are immobilising both your hands to attack their one hand and usually results in you being punched in the face or kicked.

Don't get me wrong they do have their place but in Wing Chun its usually as a reaction to you being grabbed in the first place , we don't proactively initiate an attack by joint locking .

Wing Chun is primarily a boxing art , it makes no sense to have both your main guns out of commission while they are trying to effect a joint lock , and lets face it can get quite messy if the person is very strong and determined to resist the particular lock.

But having said all that , sometimes in vigorous chi sau sparring they do happen , but they have to be done in such away that it is spontaneous .

They have to be done so that the partners bodily structure is compromised ie bent over and with his main striking weapons orientated away from you .

Don't try going for that fiddly small joint manipulation while he is square on to you or you will get punched in the face with the free hand , which coincidentally is exactly what I did to a cheeky ju jitsu guy that tried to break my fingers a long time ago.

It is not really surprising to me that in an art that was supposedly founded by a woman that there is an absence of joint locking.

Yes leverage is a big part of skill in joint locking but there is also an element of strength involved , and if your a very small slight person then attempting to joint lock a larger stronger person hell bent on resisting you can be a very risky prospect indeed.

 

[Tensei85]

Oh FFS!

Why try and invent the wheel when everybody else is riding motorbikes?

It just such a backward approach IMO. I am all for creativity but seriously the amount of times I have heard this you just wouldnt believe, then to be treated to a just aweful demonstration of what somebody has "found" in Biu Gee.

Yes there are joint locking techs that can be found in Wing Chun but c'mon it is nowhere as sophiticated as it is in arts that activily train them and are known for training them.

In another thread here somebody asks whats wrong with chunners. Well this is a classic example!

Actually have you had any experience in Chi Sim Weng Chun or Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun? Which have a set of qin na sequences that as you say they "actively train them." You might want to rephrase certain wordings or perform more thorough research in order not to make the assumption that your reference on Wing Chun is all inclusive.

I'm not attacking your perspective on Wing Chun as I'm sure you have a decent level of understanding but all I'm saying is don't make a ruling until you have seen all the facts. And if you already have done that then you have my sincerest apologies on my post above.

 

[mook jong man]

Actually have you had any experience in Chi Sim Weng Chun or Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun? Which have a set of qin na sequences that as you say they "actively train them." You might want to rephrase certain wordings or perform more thorough research in order not to make the assumption that your reference on Wing Chun is all inclusive.

I'm not attacking your perspective on Wing Chun as I'm sure you have a decent level of understanding but all I'm saying is don't make a ruling until you have seen all the facts. And if you already have done that then you have my sincerest apologies on my post above.

Thats a very good point , we can all be guilty sometimes of using our own experiences as a frame of reference.

We can only really talk based on our own particular lineage and experience , because there are so many different lineages out there that it would probably take several lifetimes to be well versed in all of them in order to say what techniques are contained within the particular system.

It would probably be better to say in our lineage we don't have ........... or in our lineage we do ......... this way than try to encompass all the various different clans.

 

[Tensei85]

Thats a very good point , we can all be guilty sometimes of using our own experiences as a frame of reference.

We can only really talk based on our own particular lineage and experience , because there are so many different lineages out there that it would probably take several lifetimes to be well versed in all of them in order to say what techniques are contained within the particular system.

It would probably be better to say in our lineage we don't have ........... or in our lineage we do ......... this way than try to encompass all the various different clans.

Definitely, I can agree with that 100% In fact in reference towards your post I have also been guilty of saying well Wing Chun is like this or Wing Chun does this but then I end up encountering a system that there approach is a lot different. Even though the principles stay the same some times the individual expression or concepts may differ bit by bit.

Nice insight!

 

[zepedawingchun]

In another thread here somebody asks whats wrong with chunners. Well this is a classic example!

Also, most of the time, their tea cup is too full to allow more tea to be poured. Classic example of limited thinking and not knowing or understanding their system, its concepts, principles, theories, and forms.

 

[graychuan]

Wing Chun Class Sparring is required by all of us in the Woo Fai Ching System.

 

[KamonGuy2]

You make it sound like Wing Chun doesn't utilize a hook, it does. In most of the family lines, it can be found in the 3rd part of Biu Jee. Some lines use a phoenix eye strike, some a hook. Uppercuts are also trained in some of the WC family lines, usually found in Chum Kiu. Also, the concepts for grappling and joint locks are there in the forms. You just have to find them. The system is more complete than most know, you just have to search for what you're looking for and be creative.

Wing chun for the most part does not utilize a hook. People often mistake the movements shown in bil jee for 'uppercuts and hooks. They are not. A boxers hook utilizes momentum and muscle power whereas the 'hook' in bil jee is a tighter movement and relies solely on the turn of the body.
They are completely seperate moves

Chunners get really frustrated on this point because they think other arts have moves they do not. This is silly

A boxers hook is part of their system and works in certain situations. It really is only useful to people who have the muscle and power to back it up. Usually in wing chun this is not the case (ie if a thin little bloke tried to throw a right hook it would not have the same effect as if he used a fut sao etc)

That is why I encourage people to cross train. In order to do certain arts you need to release certain muscles or train attacks accordingly. If you dont train taekwondo or karate and the try and do a high kick you will probably fail. Even though there is a high kick in the forms (Ding gerk, tai gerk etc)

 

[Poor Uke]

Actually have you had any experience in Chi Sim Weng Chun or Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun? Which have a set of qin na sequences that as you say they "actively train them." You might want to rephrase certain wordings or perform more thorough research in order not to make the assumption that your reference on Wing Chun is all inclusive.

I'm not attacking your perspective on Wing Chun as I'm sure you have a decent level of understanding but all I'm saying is don't make a ruling until you have seen all the facts. And if you already have done that then you have my sincerest apologies on my post above.

Hi Tensei I accept your point and you are right I havent trained all sub groups of Wing Chun.

My own experience is of Yip Man lineage full time for 7 years, minimum 2 hours a day (yes I'm that obsessive). I have had the opportunity of training with a number of people from the various Yip Man splinter groups who all claim they have grappling and quin na etc.. I have yet to experience anything approaching judo/JJJ/Bjj/Silat/Arnis/Sambo when it comes to control, manipulation of joints and grappling.

WC in my experience (as pointed out by somebody else) is great to get into grappling range but it aint grappling.

Claiming things are "in the forms" is a classic line. Usually used to justify any inadequacies in WC, in my opinion that is.

 

[geezer]

WC in my experience (as pointed out by somebody else) is great to get into grappling range but it aint grappling.

Claiming things are "in the forms" is a classic line. Usually used to justify any inadequacies in WC, in my opinion that is.

Definitely a classic line... and not just mouthed by WC people, but by the more closed minded adherents of many traditional martial arts. Wing Chun is a great art and there is more to it than meets the eye. But you are right, it ain't grappling.

BTW, my only excuse for not training grappling (yet) is that I my cup is full with what I've got. But eventually, I plan to get there!

 

[CRCAVirginia]

It depends how much time you spend training your ground game. My sifu utilizes WC on the ground quite well. Now before you say "Yeah against no experienced WC students" Let me say he trains with Gene Lebell and his students and he does quite well when they allow striking. I personally train BJJ, BJJ becomes different when you begin to allow for strikes, it becomes more of MMA style of ground fighting where you don't see many people trying to pass the guard and not as many submissions from the guard. This is where WC techniques on the ground can work.

CRCA Wing Chun has ground fighting drills, Chi Sau on the ground, lop Sau, basic drills. Some WC purists won't like it, but Chi Sau on the ground adds a new dimension to the drill. I like to use it for a heavier pressure that I have to than deal with. (me on ground) I can use Chi Sau to set up submissions from the guard postion.

In case you want to try it here is how we set it up, one person in guard,(back on the ground) just like Jiu Jitsu. Chi Sau like you normally would.

When you add WC to the ground it opens up new training ideas.

 

[CRCAVirginia]

Kamon Guy, First I respect and appreciate your posts and your style of WC.

Our upper cut is in Chum Kiu. We have a shovel hook as well. You are right they are not exactly as Western Boxing. But I have to disagree on the part about being big and strong to pull off, I learned a Western Boxing Hook from the lead hand and it does not take much muscle to pull off. It's a pivot on the front foot and a pulling action with the body and the fist makes like you are holding a pint in your hand. By the way the pivot is the same pivot we use when we open our Yee Jee Keem Yeung Ma! The hand motion is the same that we use coming back to Lan Sau from what we call Fun Sau the double throat chopping motion in Siu Leem Tau.

This is exactly how some WC techniques are born from other WC movements.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Kamon Guy, First I respect and appreciate your posts and your style of WC.

Our upper cut is in Chum Kiu. We have a shovel hook as well. You are right they are not exactly as Western Boxing. But I have to disagree on the part about being big and strong to pull off, I learned a Western Boxing Hook from the lead hand and it does not take much muscle to pull off. It's a pivot on the front foot and a pulling action with the body and the fist makes like you are holding a pint in your hand. By the way the pivot is the same pivot we use when we open our Yee Jee Keem Yeung Ma! The hand motion is the same that we use coming back to Lan Sau from what we call Fun Sau the double throat chopping motion in Siu Leem Tau.

This is exactly how some WC techniques are born from other WC movements.

I know the hit you are taking about (having trained extensively in boxing and Muay Thai), but it is very different from wing chun movements
You pretty much always have to pivot when doing a hook. In wing chun the 'hook' is like a reverse lan sau and works no matter your size. trust me when I say that a scrawny guy doing a hook will not take out a much larger opponent

For example think of the recent fight with the 7foot Russian guy. How many hooks and punches did the smaller fighter have to throw before anything happened? Answer - a lot.

I would point out that the 'uppercut' in chum kil is not an uppercut. It is used to control teh arm. Many people look at the movement and assume that it is an uppercut. Have a look on youtube and watch the movement carefully - you will see that the force is directed forwards rather than upwards. Some people use it as an arm break, but more practically it is for controlling your opponent

The only striking uppercuts in wing chun occur in bil gee

It also sounds like you attempt to use 'double chopping hands' or fun sao as a practical application. This is a mistake

The reason two fut saos are done in sil nim tao is that it is more efficient to do it at the same time rather than slow down the form by doing a fut sao one side and then another one straight after. You are merely working the stretch of the fut sao in that movement - dont take sil nim tao too literally. The form is there to help create shapes and structures in a memorable way

I am not trying to disresepct your art, your teacher or what you have learnt, but it is frustrating when people go off thinking that two fut saos will beat opponents either side of you etc, and then get into trouble because of it

CRCAVirginia - you can absolutely utilize wing chun on the ground but as an add on. If you go into a fight using only wing chun when it goes to the floor you will struggle. A lot. Wing chun is all about posture and stance. It utilizes the body as one. On the ground, this isnt possible. Centre line goes out the window. You can use sticking hands to a degree. And you can use some excellent strikes from wing chun. It is like asking a capoera guy to fight someone in a phone box lol
Use what works!

 

[geezer]

I would point out that the 'uppercut' in chum kil is not an uppercut. It is used to control teh arm. Many people look at the movement and assume that it is an uppercut. Have a look on youtube and watch the movement carefully - you will see that the force is directed forwards rather than upwards...

The only striking uppercuts in wing chun occur in bil gee

Likewise Kamon, I would like to point out that different branches of WC (even within the Yip Man lineage) do the forms differently. As I look around at how some of the different WC/WT/VT masters do the forms. I try to reserve judgement until I see the application they intend for the movement. And visa versa. If the movement and the application make good sense I have no problem.

Now in the system I practice, there is an uppercut in Chum Kiu, and if you watch how the movement is executed, it is clear that this is the primary application. On the other hand, we do not have an uppercut in Biu Tze as you apparently do. We do however have an open-handed upward strike to the throat... but it is an altogether different kind of strike.

My point is that sometimes we should cut people some slack before we assume that they are wrong. My old Chinese sifu was quick to call those who disagreed with him "stupid" and worse names. Since I've moved on, I've found that some of these other ways of doing WC may make very good sense if you consider their context. Like you said, "Use what works".

 

[CRCAVirginia]

First, I never stated to use two throat chopping hands in unison. I was pointing out that the movement coming back COULD be used as a hooking motion. There are times when I will use that motion with an open palm to the side of the head, why not a fist? And yes I take motions from the forms, combine them and make a new technique. I think Siu Leem Tau is Wing Chun, in Little Idea Form. The form is teaching you WC if you listen. Everything in the form means something, from the opening stance to the closing of the stance, when we bring the left foot to the right, where the little idea of footwork is born.

Look at You Tube? No thanks. Our Chau Kuen or upper cut is one of the eight punches of WC. Also called Juen Kuen (drilling punch) and Joong Loh Kuen (mid level punch) I will use it mainly as a leak after I Bong straight up to his chin. Where I hold his punch in a Lon Sau postion to leak under. If I used lop sau instead of Lon Sau, I would pull his arm on top of mine, stopping my own attacking uppercut.

No Centerline on the ground? The only time there is no Centerline is when our chests are touching. As long as I can place my blocking triangle between the tip of your attacking triangle and the centerline I can stop your attack, standing or on the ground.

As I stated before my Sifu can and does use WC effectively on the ground WHEN striking is involved. We train for a street encounter not a tournament where we are likely not facing a BJJ black belt.

 

[Tensei85]

Hi Tensei I accept your point and you are right I havent trained all sub groups of Wing Chun.

My own experience is of Yip Man lineage full time for 7 years, minimum 2 hours a day (yes I'm that obsessive). I have had the opportunity of training with a number of people from the various Yip Man splinter groups who all claim they have grappling and quin na etc.. I have yet to experience anything approaching judo/JJJ/Bjj/Silat/Arnis/Sambo when it comes to control, manipulation of joints and grappling.

WC in my experience (as pointed out by somebody else) is great to get into grappling range but it aint grappling.

Claiming things are "in the forms" is a classic line. Usually used to justify any inadequacies in WC, in my opinion that is.

Agreed, I understand what your saying & where your coming from. Thanks for adding to the discussion. Haha, hopefully my above comments didn't sound like I was taking a stab at your legitimacy or your training regimen as that wasn't my intention, just to clarify.

 

[Poor Uke]

No worries I think you made a valid point.