WT lineage stance/steps to enhance rooting and power generation?

[geezer]

BTW, reading threads like this with the great input by Hunschuld and John Wang, I find myself daydreaming and imagining a utopian world in which Wing Chun practitioners would openly exchange information. A world where WC/VT/WT and even JKD guys, etc. with a particular skill would travel and offer open seminars to share their knowledge. So, for example, you might go to open seminars on subjects like, "Integrating Sweeps and Throws into your WC", or "Grappling and Escapes for WC", or "Different Approaches to Power Generation in WC", or....

...In short, a world where WC people were more interested in sharing and developing practical skills than perpetuating the cult of their linage and sifu.

 

[Poppity]

BTW, reading threads like this with the great input by Hunschuld and John Wang, I find myself daydreaming and imagining a utopian world in which Wing Chun practitioners would openly exchange information. A world where WC/VT/WT and even JKD guys, etc. with a particular skill would travel and offer open seminars to share their knowledge. So, for example, you might go to open seminars on subjects like, "Integrating Sweeps and Throws into your WC", or "Grappling and Escapes for WC", or "Different Approaches to Power Generation in WC", or....

...In short, a world where WC people were more interested in sharing and developing practical skills than perpetuating the cult of their linage and sifu.

I am tempted to do a body snatchers point and "screee...." At this clear blasphemy.

But in the interest of sharing I found an old clip of my sifu doing takedowns on YouTube. I appreciate that bending the back is not in every lineage of wing chun, but it's in ours and certainly the gulao style.

 

[Danny T]

The wing chun I've learned has numerous takedowns, sweeps, trips, throws utilizing the legs (chi gerk) for leveraging, hooking, sweeping. Kick and knee strikes are used for entries into the trips and sweeps as well.

 

[geezer]

I appreciate that bending the back is not in every lineage of wing chun, but it's in ours and certainly the gulao style.

We normally keep the spine straight, but flexible. So yeah, we will flex the spine and bend with the energy we receive, but we would not normally bend back of our own volition. That also figures into the principle expressed in the last movement of our Biu Tze form.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

we would not normally bend back of our own volition.

The backward bending with toes push kick is a good technique to counter any punch.

The leg is longer than the arm.

 

[geezer]

The wing chun I've learned has numerous takedowns, sweeps, trips, throws utilizing the legs (chi gerk) for leveraging, hooking, sweeping. Kick and knee strikes are used for entries into the trips and sweeps as well.

We seem to train something similar, and I have a few sweeps, trips, throws, and counters I feel very comfortable with, but I'm always interested in how others approach these things.

Overall, I'd describe our lineage as more of a "narrowly focused art" with a bit of the "less is more" approach. We emphasize just a handful of sweeps, trips, and throws that we use pretty often, with a variety of entries or set-ups from chi-sau or clinch range. Other arts may be more "broadly focused" and include a much wider range of techniques.

On a separate note: I'm feeling a bit rusty with this stuff since 1. nobody really wants to train in close or in clinch range in these Covidious times, and 2. since we moved out of the studio last year, we don't have access to quality matts. The thin puzzle matts in the garage we use don't really cut it for me any more. Hitting 65 in a couple of weeks, and feeling the years in my joints and back.

 

[geezer]

The backward bending with toes push kick is a good technique to counter any punch.

The leg is longer than the arm.

Looking at the second image, the GIF. Would't throwing the hips forward be more functional than throwing the shoulders back and leaning backward? What am I missing?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Looking at the second image, the GIF. Would't throwing the hips forward be more functional than throwing the shoulders back and leaning backward? What am I missing?

For offense, the backward leaning can help you to change a heel kick into a toes push kick. You use body leaning forward heel kick first. After the contact, you then change your heel kick into a toes push kick by leaning your body backward. This way, you can deliver 2 consecutive kicks into your opponent's body one after another.

In one Kung Fu movie, the guy delivered 4 consecutive strikes:

- finger jab.
- knuckle punch,
- fist punch,
- palm heel strike.

The 4 consecutive strikes may only exist in a movie. But the 2 consecutive kicks (heel kick, toes push kick) truly exist in CMA long fist system 3rd road Pao Quan.

For defense, if you kick out earlier, you don't need to lean back that much. If your opponent fist almost reaches to your face, you have to lean back to dodge that punch (for defense).

 

[hunschuld]

Some of the sweeps and throws you described sound similar to things I've seen, but this, using double tok sau, as a brutal throw doesn't sound like anything I'm familiar with. Could you elaborate?

Double tok throw is really for only 1 situation. When you have been clinched with a Muay Tai plum control or something similar. The only time I ever used it was while sparring at a MMA school 22 years ago. I hit it on a person bigger and stronger than me ,he was either 6'4 or 6'5 and we were wearing head gear but he was knocked cold for over a minute. I was told he landed on the side of his head. Scared me so much I have only taught it three times since then and have not used it since.

I only mention it because of my health status and since my children don't want to learn I don't want everything to disappear when I go. There is a mellow version and the nasty version. The movement relies on you ability to use your hips in the snake fashion and tok's up and forward under the elbows. Timing is also important. You must hit it right after they lock in to have the best effect.

 

[Oily Dragon]

It's situational, but generally speaking, the short pulling step is used to cover a short distance, like scooting up under the table.
If you were to go a further distance then the rear leg steps through and the other leg becomes weighted.
Same as in going backwards or to the side opposite the leg that's out.

A good rule of thumb is you step with the same leg you would easiest kick with in a particular instance.
In other words, if the opponent is too far away to kick with the front leg, you would kick with( or step) with the rear leg.
If the left foot is forward and opponent is on your left, you would kick with the left foot using a side kick or facing them and using a front kick...if they were on your right, your right foot would come through in an arcing motion and kick (or step) to the right.

So we don't stay on the back leg completely and scoot around the floor like a doofus, the legs change position just like walking.

Clear as mud?

You nailed it. Scoot is the perfect word for the Diu Ma Shuffle. 上, 雙, 吊, 屌.

The connection between Seung Ma, Seurng Ma, and Diu Ma is that once again, nobody expects the Chinese Homophonism!

From stepping stance, to two stepping stance, to false cat leg stance that transforms onto a lethal Golden chicken.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Just look at YouTube,very few effective WC fighters.
.

Any kind of kung fu is really, really, really hard to get effective at, otherwise it wouldn't be called kung fu.

Have you seen all the garbage on Youtube? It gets harder every day to find anything good there.

 

[geezer]

Now for all the people who insist that the "WT" back weighted advancing step is impractical and unnatural, I have a clip showing that even our four-legged friends use it:

From now on this classical stepping method shall be known as "Dog wipes his as..."

 

[Punchy]

Now for all the people who insist that the "WT" back weighted advancing step is impractical and unnatural, I have a clip showing that even our four-legged friends use it:

From now on this classical stepping method shall be known as "Dog wipes his as..."

Someone beat you to it

 

[Danny T]

We seem to train something similar, and I have a few sweeps, trips, throws, and counters I feel very comfortable with, but I'm always interested in how others approach these things.

Overall, I'd describe our lineage as more of a "narrowly focused art" with a bit of the "less is more" approach. We emphasize just a handful of sweeps, trips, and throws that we use pretty often, with a variety of entries or set-ups from chi-sau or clinch range. Other arts may be more "broadly focused" and include a much wider range of techniques.

On a separate note: I'm feeling a bit rusty with this stuff since 1. nobody really wants to train in close or in clinch range in these Covidious times, and 2. since we moved out of the studio last year, we don't have access to quality matts. The thin puzzle matts in the garage we use don't really cut it for me any more. Hitting 65 in a couple of weeks, and feeling the years in my joints and back.

"Overall, I'd describe our lineage as more of a "narrowly focused art" with a bit of the "less is more" approach."
I can agree with this within my training up to the Biu Jee. Here we focus first on form and presentation then a lot of play and experimentation as to how you (the individual) use the movements, postures, & skills for application. Again during the weapons training the focus, at first, is the form and presentation then experimentation. During these phases we spar, a lot and my sifu pushes us strongly if not already training in other systems to do so. In fact, in order to become a full instructor under him you are required to have advanced into high levels of at least 2 completely different martial systems. Not so much to become say a Muay Thai fighter or instructor but to truly understand your wing chun and use it vs a real boxer or nak muay, or bjj/wrestler.

 

[geezer]

...In fact, in order to become a full instructor under him you are required to have advanced into high levels of at least 2 completely different martial systems...

This is very different from the old school Chinese thinking, according to which you chose a good school, work hard and impress your sifu enough to be allowed to do bai si and become his disciple, then you study his art, not others.

...or is it really so different? Every one of those old masters had a functional knowledge of other systems ...often picked up on the sly, testing their arts with friends from other lineages or systems. My old sifu insisted that his art was complete and the only art we should study or teach.

And yet many times in the early years, in private, he would let down his guard and demonstrate bits of Hung Gar, Choi Li Fut, Karate, and Judo. Definitely more than you could learn without having practiced.

Many have speculated that Yip Man similarly practiced and exchanged knowledge with others to further develop his technique, but because of this traditional approach where you would not "betray" your lineage, he used the "Leung Bic" story to cover for any changes he made and in this way allowed his old instructor and Si-Dai, Ng Chun So, to save face. He may also have learned actual material from Leung Bic. I don't know.

Anyway, I suppose I reflect contemporary Western culture when I say that your sifu's openness makes a whole lot of sense to me. Heck, maybe not even Western culture. John Wang also seems to favor learning several arts.

 

[Punchy]

I came to WT having trained another kung fu system for a number of years and while it was a bit of a hindrance early on with unlearning old habits it became a plus in helping my students and me to learn how to deal with attacks outside of WT.

Emin used to refer to only training WT vs WT as martial incest.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

John Wang also seems to favor learning several arts.

The term "style" has no meaning to me. My goal is to add another

- tool,
- method/principle/strategy,

into my toolbox.

To use WC Tang Shou to protect my center from inside out is what make me interest in WC.

When I see somebody who can do something special, I will ask myself, "Can I do it?"

 

[geezer]

Thinking about Hunschuld and Danny talking about leg-sweeps and throws in WC/WT/VT. I liked this paricular response to someone wiping your front kick aside with gwat sau and stepping inside. Counter with a downward chopping kick (a sort of oi moon gaun gherk) behind the knee. Sweet! See 2:50 - 3:35 below:

Other similar responses: at a little longer range you can stomp down onto his foot or, at a little closer range, stomp down into a huen bo (as you turn to recover center) and sweep out the ankle.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Can you believe that the WC Bong Shou has already been used in Chinese wrestling?

The WC double Tan Shou can be used to set up head lock nicely.

 

[geezer]

The term "style" has no meaning to me. My goal is to add another tool, method/ principle/ strategy, into my toolbox.
...When I see somebody who can do something special, I will ask myself, "Can I do it?"

These days, there's a lot I can't physically do like I used to. At least not at a truly functional level. So sometimes it's enough to understand how things integrate and share them with students and friends. More of a coach and less of a participant.

BTW you are older than I am and seem to still have it going. Awesome! It's an inspiration for me to get off my butt and stop making excuses.