Watching street fight/attack videos ?

[JowGaWolf]

You do understand that Bjj practitioners, and especially MMA fighters know far more takedowns than just the shoot right? Further, if you're really fighting someone trained in either of those styles, they're going to be masters at closing the distance, even under the pressure of strikes.

I mean, are you going to teach your students how to stop stuff like this;

Yes. It's a self-defense class. Weapons are allowed and are recommended to be used against an attacker especially if the person's fighting skills is less than the attacker. If there is a chair, table, fan, pool stick, broom, or even other people then use them to create the distance. Use traffic if you have to. I've been in confrontations where I purposely position myself so that the aggressor would be close to the street all for the purpose of me kicking him into the road while cars are passing by. When I worked on city property and had to deal with drug dealers, it was against the law to bring weapons on the property, but tools such as screw drivers, awls, baseball bats, crow bars, steak knives, box cutters, steel bars, scissors, forks, canes, tactical pens, and other stuff were all legal. Even a regular pen or a sharp pencil can be utilized. So yes. I will be teaching them about how to create distance and the dangers of being too close to someone who is posing to attack them. I will also be stressing a 5ft to 6ft distance. Even if they have to use other people or objects in the environment to help create distance.

In my opinion this boy does an excellent job of creating distance. He actually uses other people to put distance between him and the guy that wants to fight him.

 

[Dirty Dog]

A person who happens to do something over and over again until they exceed the ability of an average person.

A person who practices TKD for example, should be able to perform kicks at a level far above that of an average person.

Wouldn't you agree?

No. Not really. Because the vast majority of people who train in ANY system never get beyond the beginner levels.

Besides, TKD is trained in large part through poomsae, and we all know that (at least according to you) nobody could possibly learn anything from poomsae.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes. It's a self-defense class. Weapons are allowed and are recommended to be used against an attacker especially if the person's fighting skills is less than the attacker. If there is a chair, table, fan, pool stick, broom, or even other people then use them to create the distance. Use traffic if you have to. I've been in confrontations where I purposely position myself so that the aggressor would be close to the street all for the purpose of me kicking him into the road while cars are passing by. When I worked on city property and had to deal with drug dealers, it was against the law to bring weapons on the property, but tools such as screw drivers, awls, baseball bats, crow bars, steak knives, box cutters, steel bars, scissors, forks, canes, tactical pens, and other stuff were all legal. Even a regular pen or a sharp pencil can be utilized. So yes. I will be teaching them about how to create distance and the dangers of being too close to someone who is posing to attack them. I will also be stressing a 5ft to 6ft distance. Even if they have to use other people or objects in the environment to help create distance.

In my opinion this boy does an excellent job of creating distance. He actually uses other people to put distance between him and the guy that wants to fight him.

What you're saying above pretty much applies to any attacker that you're trying to get away from (though purposely kicking someone into incoming traffic is a surefire way to get into a ton of trouble). I'm not seeing how any of that really applies specifically to an attacker trained in MMA/Bjj.

 

[Dirty Dog]

What you're saying above pretty much applies to any attacker that you're trying to get away from (though purposely kicking someone into incoming traffic is a surefire way to get into a ton of trouble). I'm not seeing how any of that really applies specifically to an attacker trained in MMA/Bjj.

Not really, it's not. If I feel that you pose an imminent threat, I can certainly kick you out into traffic and justify it. Let's see you put a RNC on a Buick...

 

[Koshiki]

So yeah, grappling versus striking is a cool debate.

On another note, whatcha all think about the helpfulness of watching youtube videos of (adopt intense, booming, intimidating voice) STREET fights?

 

[Hanzou]

No. Not really. Because the vast majority of people who train in ANY system never get beyond the beginner levels.

And those who DO get beyond beginner levels, wouldn't their kicks be far above the kicking ability of the average person whom has never taken martial arts?

Not really, it's not. If I feel that you pose an imminent threat, I can certainly kick you out into traffic and justify it. Let's see you put a RNC on a Buick...

You do understand that you have a good chance of injuring the driver and any potential passangers of the Buick as well right? So even if you're proven innocent of injuring or killing someone by kicking them out into the street, you also run the risk of injuring and/or killing an innocent person who had nothing to do with the incident at all.

Brilliant tactic.

 

[Hanzou]

So yeah, grappling versus striking is a cool debate.

On another note, whatcha all think about the helpfulness of watching youtube videos of (adopt intense, booming, intimidating voice) STREET fights?

I think the quality of this street fight is quite stunning;

Also, note how many times the fight went to the ground.

 

[Koshiki]

Also, note how many times the fight went to the ground.

Again, yeah, most people, especially untrained people, are good at falling down. I mean, we're a tall, top heavy body balanced on two long, thin poles...

And those who DO get beyond beginner levels, wouldn't their kicks be far above the kicking ability of the average person whom has never taken martial arts?

Yup. I really don't think that Dirty Dog, (as I recall) a TKD stylist, is insinuating that TKD practitioners can't kick better than untrained people.

But, the whole reason, (again, as I recall) that you brought up the whole, TKD-guys-kick-well thing, was to make a point that well-trained grapplers know and can perform a variety of takedowns.

However, the reason you brought that up, (one last time: as I recall) was to counter JowGaWolf's assertion that he is qualified to teach, in his planned self-defense course, some basic defensive tactics against someone, statistically speaking someone probably largely untrained in grappling arts, trying to grab you and throw you on the ground, as in the first takedown in the above video.

So, while learning to create some space, lean in, and take a wide stance might not really cover too much ground in defending against a trained grappler, that's probably not the aim of JowGaWolf's course, if I were to hazard a guess...

So while I agree with you, I'm fast losing track of why any of this is at all relevant.

On a side note, I am really, really not a fan of one day, two week, whatever self-defense courses. I've been training in the martial arts passionately for 60% of my short life thusfar, and the one thing I've really learned well, is that defending yourself against a really determined aggressor is very, very difficult.

Although I've gotta say it again, we have a million threads about the efficacy of striking arts, grappling arts, ground-fighting, whatever, I think it would be really interesting to keep this one thread focused on the efficacy of analyzing recorded real-world violent interactions...

 

[Dirty Dog]

And those who DO get beyond beginner levels, wouldn't their kicks be far above the kicking ability of the average person whom has never taken martial arts?

Sure. But your odds of encountering such a person in a street brawl are pretty slim. Your point seemed to be that "Masters" were pretty common place, which would indicate a high likelihood of encountering one in a street brawl. The fact of the matter is that what you're most likely to encounter is a person with little or no training at all.

You do understand that you have a good chance of injuring the driver and any potential passangers of the Buick as well right? So even if you're proven innocent of injuring or killing someone by kicking them out into the street, you also run the risk of injuring and/or killing an innocent person who had nothing to do with the incident at all.
Brilliant tactic.

You connection to reality seems particularly tenuous these days...

I've treated literally thousands of auto-ped patients. Two this weekend, as a matter of fact. The car wins. Every time. Unless by "good chance", you actually mean "extremely remote chance."

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you think about it, the "no rules" argument is kind of null and void as long as you know your distances fairly well.

When people argue that "street fights are no rules; they're worse than ring fights," they will generally argue for groin kicks and eye gouges. Now, some will get imaginative which is good, and say "I can basketball your head off the curb," and "I can step on your ankle and shatter it," or "I can german suplex you and yell John Cena," because no rules. Fair argument, right?

However, not many people have the training to manage that and you can figure out why, lol. And if you have quality training (meaning distance, timing, accuracy, balance/coordination, combinations and ferocity) then you can avoid 99% of the "no rules" techniques such as namely groin kicks. And I'm sure that 99% of even the most sub-par MA schools train you to stand in such a way that groin kicks aren't easy to land in the first place, so the "no rules" argument can easily be defeated.

Now, that being said, suppose someone has good quality training with all of the factors I listed earlier. The difference between "ring" and "street" fights doesn't have so much to do with what techniques are available to you and your opponent and the fact that there's no ref, the difference between "ring" and "street" is predictability. When you train in a "ring fight" school, you're in a ring or an octagon practicing combos. You're going running. You're lifting heavy weights and shadow boxing. You're sparring against people better than you, because a ring fight is expected. How do you train for a fight you aren't expecting?

When I say that there are no rules in street fighting I mean just that there are no rules. No rules aren't limited just for the defender or the attacker. Anything can happen. No rules means no rules. When someone is attacking you in the street you shouldn't assume that they can't or won't do something horrible. Attackers always make the assumption that they have the advantage over your which is probably why the person was attacked in the first place. Putting up a fierce and unforgiving fight is the last thing that an attacker thinks his victim will do.
Amanda Russo fends off shank-wielding attacker with well-placed kick

As far as MA schools train you to stand in such a way that groin kicks aren't easy to land in the first place, so the "no rules" argument can easily be defeated.

As far as MMA fighters dealing with no rules you can learn something from them.
UFC veteran Dan Lauzon has proven once again why it's never a good idea to get into a street fight, even if you're a professional fighter.

You also can't assume that just because you beat someone in a fight that they won't return with a knife or gun. Like you stated. How do you train for a fight you aren't expecting. You don't. The only thing you can do is try to deescalate long enough for you to get out of a bad situation, avoid a bad situation all together, or fight with all your might and available skills and hope that things like guns, knives, and other weapons don't come into the situation. Don't get me wrong being trained to fight is a big help because sometimes fights are only hand to hand and 1 vs 1. But don't ever get into a fight thinking that's what it's going to be.

This is how I see self-defense

"If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him."

"If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him." (this is for sparring and fight competition) For self defense I change this to "if your opponent is temperamental, seek to calm him" By calm, I mean as in calming his intended actions, sometimes if you can get someone to think about something else other than hurting you then you may be able to have an out or a moment where he loses focus.

"Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected." This is my favorite because I'm all about this. People like to throw big punches to the face, they never expect kicks to the legs or with the legs. In my case I don't know anyone who expects someone to sweep them in a real fight. Other scenarios are weapons where, your attacker doesn't expect you to fight back with all your effort, or to have a knife, or to try to attack the eyes, or literally grab the genitals and squeeze them with all your might. When sparring I always say "fighting where your opponent isn't"

 

[JowGaWolf]

On a side note, I am really, really not a fan of one day, two week, whatever self-defense courses. I've been training in the martial arts passionately for 60% of my short life thusfar, and the one thing I've really learned well, is that defending yourself against a really determined aggressor is very, very difficult.

I agree with you on this. Which is why it's a one day 2 hour class. By the end of the class they should have a really good understanding of their limitations. They should have a better understanding of how to be more aware of the surroundings and that they should always "know where the exits are" Where the real dangers are. An unsupervised drink in the club or bar is likely to more dangerous than a group of guys who look like thugs. By the end of the class they should be able to really understand that strength and conditioning is required to do the self-defense techniques from BJJ, Karate, Kung Fu and other fighting systems. They'll also understand what type of teacher they'll need from those systems and how to avoid the McDojos and the lure of paying for black belts. That way if they decide to actually learn a fighting system they'll be able to do a better job finding a teacher that really cares about their ability to defend themselves.

The amount of physical self-defense is going to be very limited depending on person's conditioning. If a person can't run 50 yards top speed without being too tired to fight at the end of the run, then I really doubt that basic running away will even be an option.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What you're saying above pretty much applies to any attacker that you're trying to get away from (though purposely kicking someone into incoming traffic is a surefire way to get into a ton of trouble). I'm not seeing how any of that really applies specifically to an attacker trained in MMA/Bjj.

In the case that I explained. I couldn't get away. I was with my 5 year old daughter and wife and I had just stopped a guy a guy from beating on a teenager. It's not just me that I had to be concerned about. When I'm dealing with a potential street fight, I don't care about the "ton of trouble" that I may get from the law. I'm not guaranteed to survive the fight and that's how I treat it and I'll do everything I can to win it, if I can't retreat from or deescalate the situation.
You may think this is a crock of crap, but I was able to end the confrontation without resulting in an actual fight.

As for how it relates to a fighting system, it causes changes on what you would have done if you have room vs what you might do if 5 steps back could mean that a car hits you. Keep in mind he doesn't know what fighting system I know as well or if I have a weapon. Just because a person knows, MMA, BJJ, or even Kung Fu doesn't mean that they can just jump into a fight and think that everything will go their way. I'm sure this guy thought everything was going his way right up to the point where he got attacked with a weapon. You know what I didn't see in that fight? Grappling and getting on the ground.

 

[drop bear]

When I say that there are no rules in street fighting I mean just that there are no rules. No rules aren't limited just for the defender or the attacker. Anything can happen. No rules means no rules. When someone is attacking you in the street you shouldn't assume that they can't or won't do something horrible. Attackers always make the assumption that they have the advantage over your which is probably why the person was attacked in the first place. Putting up a fierce and unforgiving fight is the last thing that an attacker thinks his victim will do.

So you are suggesting a street fight will be just one random encounter after another with no rhyme or reason to it?

You couldn't prepare for that.

 

[Hanzou]

Sure. But your odds of encountering such a person in a street brawl are pretty slim. Your point seemed to be that "Masters" were pretty common place, which would indicate a high likelihood of encountering one in a street brawl. The fact of the matter is that what you're most likely to encounter is a person with little or no training at all.

Sure, but if you're running a self defense course to counter a Bjj/MMA practitioner, or someone using those tactics, wouldn't you be training to stop someone highly skilled in those tactics just in case?

Which is why (again) I suggested bringing in a black belt in Bjj, or a MMA instructor to teach a seminar.

You connection to reality seems particularly tenuous these days...

I've treated literally thousands of auto-ped patients. Two this weekend, as a matter of fact. The car wins. Every time. Unless by "good chance", you actually mean "extremely remote chance."

I've seen people slam on brakes and/or swerve wildly in order to avoid hitting a squirrel or raccoon on the road. I've also witnessed accidents caused by those actions.

Now, if people do that in order to avoid a critter, how do you think someone would react to seeing a person suddenly being kicked out into the path of their vehicle?

Let's also not forget the potential psychological trauma of someone killing or seriously injuring someone else with their car.

Like I said, "brilliant tactic".

 

[drop bear]

"Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected." This is my favorite because I'm all about this. People like to throw big punches to the face, they never expect kicks to the legs or with the legs. In my case I don't know anyone who expects someone to sweep them in a real fight. Other scenarios are weapons where, your attacker doesn't expect you to fight back with all your effort, or to have a knife, or to try to attack the eyes, or literally grab the genitals and squeeze them with all your might. When sparring I always say "fighting where your opponent isn't"

Wait that is a whole bunch of rules right there.

 

[Hanzou]

Again, yeah, most people, especially untrained people, are good at falling down. I mean, we're a tall, top heavy body balanced on two long, thin poles...



Yup. I really don't think that Dirty Dog, (as I recall) a TKD stylist, is insinuating that TKD practitioners can't kick better than untrained people.

But, the whole reason, (again, as I recall) that you brought up the whole, TKD-guys-kick-well thing, was to make a point that well-trained grapplers know and can perform a variety of takedowns.

However, the reason you brought that up, (one last time: as I recall) was to counter JowGaWolf's assertion that he is qualified to teach, in his planned self-defense course, some basic defensive tactics against someone, statistically speaking someone probably largely untrained in grappling arts, trying to grab you and throw you on the ground, as in the first takedown in the above video.

So, while learning to create some space, lean in, and take a wide stance might not really cover too much ground in defending against a trained grappler, that's probably not the aim of JowGaWolf's course, if I were to hazard a guess...

So while I agree with you, I'm fast losing track of why any of this is at all relevant.

On a side note, I am really, really not a fan of one day, two week, whatever self-defense courses. I've been training in the martial arts passionately for 60% of my short life thusfar, and the one thing I've really learned well, is that defending yourself against a really determined aggressor is very, very difficult.

Although I've gotta say it again, we have a million threads about the efficacy of striking arts, grappling arts, ground-fighting, whatever, I think it would be really interesting to keep this one thread focused on the efficacy of analyzing recorded real-world violent interactions...

Well MMA/BJJ guys ARE trained grapplers, so a SD program based around dealing with MMA/Bjj based assailants should be taking that factor into account.

Which is why I hope that Jow is teaching more grappling counters than simply showing how to stop a sloppy double leg takedown.

 

[drop bear]

So yeah, grappling versus striking is a cool debate.

On another note, whatcha all think about the helpfulness of watching youtube videos of (adopt intense, booming, intimidating voice) STREET fights?

Depends what frame of reference you are using.

Conformation bias.
Confirmation bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[drop bear]

In the case that I explained. I couldn't get away. I was with my 5 year old daughter and wife and I had just stopped a guy a guy from beating on a teenager. It's not just me that I had to be concerned about. When I'm dealing with a potential street fight, I don't care about the "ton of trouble" that I may get from the law. I'm not guaranteed to survive the fight and that's how I treat it and I'll do everything I can to win it, if I can't retreat from or deescalate the situation.
You may think this is a crock of crap, but I was able to end the confrontation without resulting in an actual fight.

Obviously there are circumstances where you might be attacked that don't warrant you trying to kill the guy.

 

[crazydiamond]

One thing I read in a well known book on violence is dealing mentally and emotionally with an attack. I have to admit i tend to have natural response to freeze/hesitate or be shocked - I think many people do. Its overwhelming to have someone come at you. Violence is nauseating to many. I sometimes feel the reason I took Martial arts (and the type of Martial arts I took) was not to just learn "50 deadly moves", but to basically overcome a fear of being hit, attacked or real world violence. Watching these videos while icky to me is 50% working on the mental/emotional response. Of course it helps to see the type of attacks (example haymakers) that will come at you from an average drunk or enraged jerk in these street fight videos I have learned a lot in my sparing classes when the instructor decides to throw in the kind of brawling situations.

 

[lklawson]

but if a person isn't trained to fight and they think they are going against a person that knows MMA or BJJ then keeping distance is critical.

And almost impossible to do against someone who is trained to fight, such as "a person that knows MMA or BJJ." This is akin to saying, "if you're going against a person trained in knife fighting, it's critical to not get stabbed or cut." Well, obviously. But it's not quick to learn or easy to do and the training required for how to effectively prevent it comes from the same system.

You have to keep in mind that self-defense classes usually have people who aren't conditioned to fight so creating that distance is the counter.

Guns work more reliably.

They'll also learn some basic guards for defending against punches and kicks as well as a better understanding of where the power is in a kick or a punch so it's not just MMA/BJJ type attacks (the shoot) being discussed.

I'm not sure where you got the idea but there's a ton more to grappling arts than just the Shoot, even among low-level entries.

I will also cover everyday items that they can carry with them that can be used to help defend off an attack. Certain pens make great stabbing tools, while hard objects like rock spheres come in small sizes that are good for throwing at someone or smashing against someone's face.

No they don't. They all suck. Improvised Weapons are exactly that: Improvised. They'll never, ever, be as effective as a weapon designed to the task. Certain pens make "more-or-less acceptable" stabbing tools. The wound channels will be small, perforation in nature, and will never bleed as much as getting stabbed with an edged implement of similar dimensions. Pens also tend to lack effective grips and cross-guards that knives have. Yes, Improvised Weapons, in general, and pens-for-stabbing in specific, are better than nothing and certainly better than wetting yourself and crying like a little girl, but they're definitely not "great." They're improvised.

I don't want to give untrained people the feeling that they can go toe-to-toe with someone who trains to fight.

I'm glad to hear that. The primary focus of most "Self Defense" should be early detection, prevention, and quick escape.

Things like pepper spray are a given.

Pepper sprays have unpredictable results.

Take a look at all of the street fights on you tube and you'll see that very few people pay attention to their legs or their footing.

But you specified "MMA and BJJ." While a BJJ trained person may or may not be trained to kick the legs (or kick at all), a person training in MMA most assuredly has been from the first class.

You have to keep in mind that self-defense isn't about trying to go toe-to-toe with a person. Self-defense can be as simple as running into a shop to get away from an attacker. Scratching eyes, poking eyes, isn't rocket science. If your hands are near their eyes then go for it. You have limited fighting skills and are fighting against an attacker with that may try to kill you, then why wouldn't you go for it? It's literally at your finger tips. Here is where biting has worked. Here's another case where biting worked

Eye pokes are much harder to do than is commonly believed, particularly against someone who's had some fight training.

I can't tell a person with little to know fighting skills to pull of techniques that require training. They have to defend using the abilities and tools that they have at the time of the attack. When it comes to self-defense you have to fight with what you have and what you know. Here is where an eye gouge attempt worked.

I keep hearing "eye poke and nut kick" as some sort of panacea that is automatically simple and high percentage, especially in "self defense" advice to women. I always tell them this, "I've been a guy all my life. I've had testicles the whole time. If you know that testicles are sensitive and vulnerable, how much more do you think that I know this? I've had nearly 50 blasted years learning to protect my nuts, do you really think a few minutes in a 'self defense seminar' learning to junk-punch is honestly going to give you the tools to pull this off most of the time? And that's without considering that some guys just won't feel it or that the pain will pump them up even more."

And it goes the same for eye pokes. Everyone has lived with their eye's their whole life and they jolly-well know that their eyes are sensitive and vulnerable. They have instinctive responses for protecting them, fer cry'n out loud. You wanna eye poke? You have to have achieved the right position, either through skill or luck. You can't depend on luck and skill takes time, training, and effort.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk