Walk away or stand and deliver
- Thread starter silatman
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No, the moral of THAT story is that you left yourself vunerable for a punch in the back of the head. Walking away doesn't mean turning your back (fully) on them from the start. You get out of their range (should be able to judge that) and keep all those high tension trip-wires thrumming all 'round you.Han-Mi said:
Walking away from a fight doesn't by any means give you permission to let down your guard.
Of the dozens of times that I've walked away, (and this is putting distance between us first) about a third of those the guys tried for the ole' sucker punch/pounce and I've turned in time to catch them and done whatever. Either a full kick/punch or a stern tounge lashing. Inherently combatants seem to know how cowardly it is to go for your target when they aren't looking, the tongue lashing works wonders if said correctly and if they're around their friends. Somewhere Lao Tzu speaks about how Humiliation is a very effective weapon.
Crack-heads and muggers not-withstanding... they're cowards anyway so they're not in (this particular) equation. They're too hyped up and desperate to even think further than their next score. So kicking thier asses will probably be just inevitable. So with those scumbags feel free to try out that cool new technique your instructor showed you last week.
I forget; who was it that said "discretion is the better part of valor" or something like that? Choose your battles and if you withdraw from one ... watch your back!
I avoid fights because of three main reasons:
-legality: The last thing I need is jail time, a lost job, court costs and a record, because I couldn't let a comment go. No matter how justified you think you are you can always catch a case.
-escalation: I never know when I am going to have to escalate or when the other guys is? This means I may have to move up in aggressive action and have to pay the consequences for what I do to him. It also means I don't know if the guy is mouthing off from 10 ft. away because he's got a heater under his belt and is looking for an excuse to use it on me.
-sign of failure: to me getting in a physical confrontation that I intiate means my verbal skills, my self-esteem, my mental security or my self-dicipline has failed. I feel that I am less of a person if I can't talk out of a situation, or talk all the way into it.
-legality: The last thing I need is jail time, a lost job, court costs and a record, because I couldn't let a comment go. No matter how justified you think you are you can always catch a case.
-escalation: I never know when I am going to have to escalate or when the other guys is? This means I may have to move up in aggressive action and have to pay the consequences for what I do to him. It also means I don't know if the guy is mouthing off from 10 ft. away because he's got a heater under his belt and is looking for an excuse to use it on me.
-sign of failure: to me getting in a physical confrontation that I intiate means my verbal skills, my self-esteem, my mental security or my self-dicipline has failed. I feel that I am less of a person if I can't talk out of a situation, or talk all the way into it.
S
SAkenpo
Guest
-legality: The last thing I need is jail time, a lost job, court costs and a record, because I couldn't let a comment go. No matter how justified you think you are you can always catch a case.
Everyone talks about the legal issues, but what are the chances the person you are fighting with will have any idea who you are? If you are aware of your surroundings you will know if their are any witnesses to your or his/her actions. If someone intends to cause you harm it will probably be in an isolated area as possible. I seriously would try to talk my way out of it and walk/run away. Then again there is that little red guy on my shoulder telling me "take this meathead out, who's gonna know". I know we live in a civilized society, but criminals are criminals for a reason...they do bad things to good people.
Everyone talks about the legal issues, but what are the chances the person you are fighting with will have any idea who you are? If you are aware of your surroundings you will know if their are any witnesses to your or his/her actions. If someone intends to cause you harm it will probably be in an isolated area as possible. I seriously would try to talk my way out of it and walk/run away. Then again there is that little red guy on my shoulder telling me "take this meathead out, who's gonna know". I know we live in a civilized society, but criminals are criminals for a reason...they do bad things to good people.
A crackhead may not sure, but his family surely will.
Don't turn your back when walking away!
If someone went out that evening looking for a fight, they went out intending to win it. They have a plan--a weapon, friends, what-have-you. They have the twin advantages of planning ahead and of the fact that they're taking the initiative in the encounter. Why give up those advantages to your opponent?
Get out of there!
Don't turn your back when walking away!
If someone went out that evening looking for a fight, they went out intending to win it. They have a plan--a weapon, friends, what-have-you. They have the twin advantages of planning ahead and of the fact that they're taking the initiative in the encounter. Why give up those advantages to your opponent?
Get out of there!
Flatlander
Grandmaster
Totally accurate. I've over-done it, and am still ashamed of what I've done.searcher said:
What you're advocating is fighting for the sake of proving something or making a point. Previously you say "Are we martial artists or not(?)". My counter questions - why did you learn martial arts? Would your teacher condone this behaviour? Would his?silatman said:
In my opinion, it is my responsibility to honour the spirit in which my skills were taught to me. Furthermore, I believe it to be my responsibility to society to ensure that the training that I have received never reflects poorly upon myself, my instructor, his instructor, or my fellow brothers in the arts. I would fully expect that I would be undeserving of further training if I was unable to demonstrate the stability and integrity of character necessary to behave as a mature and responsible citizen ought.
In a nutshell, I will attack with great ferocity if and only if I must.
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
How often have we discussed this topic in the last two years?
Look, if you want to haul off and smack the guy...nobody here can stop you, Silatman. For failing to attempt to defuse it...if such a thing were possible...you'll face jail time, perhaps a law suit, maybe time in a hospital. If your luck or skill don't hold, you might end up on a slab somewhere. Or he might, whether that were your intent or not.
The courts have not "had enough" as you suggest. Nor has society. They still hold us to a standard of self defense.
We could go on and on about the legalities of the situation, the "reasonable man" standard, blah blah blah. Others can give pity aphorisms worthy of Kwai Chang Caine about the powers of mind and whatnot.
But we've been over that again and again. The horse, he eez starting to steenk.
We've got a number of cops on the board...and their observations are usually right on the mark. As they'll be the ones arresting anybody here who wants to hit first, ask questions later--I'll leave it to them.
Regards,
Steve
Look, if you want to haul off and smack the guy...nobody here can stop you, Silatman. For failing to attempt to defuse it...if such a thing were possible...you'll face jail time, perhaps a law suit, maybe time in a hospital. If your luck or skill don't hold, you might end up on a slab somewhere. Or he might, whether that were your intent or not.
The courts have not "had enough" as you suggest. Nor has society. They still hold us to a standard of self defense.
We could go on and on about the legalities of the situation, the "reasonable man" standard, blah blah blah. Others can give pity aphorisms worthy of Kwai Chang Caine about the powers of mind and whatnot.
But we've been over that again and again. The horse, he eez starting to steenk.
We've got a number of cops on the board...and their observations are usually right on the mark. As they'll be the ones arresting anybody here who wants to hit first, ask questions later--I'll leave it to them.
Regards,
Steve
SAkenpo said:
I totally disagree. The majority of the confrontations I have been in have been in crowded areas with plenty of witnesses. This is usually the reason for the fight in a way. The other guy wants to prove to everyone that he is more a man, better than you, can pick anyone out and win, ect. Needless to say many are not exactly in the best of mental states; drunk, high, roided, angry, ect. These people could care less about who is around, and if they are aggitated enough will let their wrath take them over, sometimes to the point of not really understanding or controling the amount of damage they are doing to their victim. Hoping no one knows who you are is a gamble. If you are right then you might get away, although I probably wouldn't go back to that place again and there is always guilt; If you are wrong, it tacks on time and charges, and make you look even worse to a jury.
Tgace
Grandmaster
I cant make a blanket "always walk away" statement because situations are so different. However if you are in a situation where you can walk away (with no significant risk to yourself or another) but dont...well lets just say that in my state that probably wont work out so well for you.
Tgace said:
Not to mention the effect of an over zealous prosecutor, differences in small town/big city mentality, even just the fact that you know martial arts is a concept that can hurt you in court.
Case in point: I know of a case, where someone was at a bar and got in a verbal confrontation with another patron. He was asked to leave by the staff and did so. The person he was arguing with followed him out, with two bouncers that were his friends. The continued the arguement and escalated to physicallity. The three of them had my aquaintance on the ground and were stomping him into paste (he had a broken jaw, ribs and orbital). He had feared for his life and pulled a blade. He stabbed one of the bouncers. He held the rest at bay as police arrived. He surrendered the weapon and was taken to jail. He wasn't given any treatment until after he was released on bail. In the end he was convicted of attempted murder, despite multiple agreeing witnesses and a strong case for self-defense.
You just can't depend on anything in the legal system today.
S
SAkenpo
Guest
I must have been totally misreading the point of the whole thread. Of course if some guy is just getting crazy at a party/bar you would want to be more careful. I was under the impression that we were (or at least I) was talking about being accosted on the street. Maybe a LEO or lawyer can answer this question? If you are in approached on the street by a complete stranger who is perceived to mean you harm and invades your space, doesn't the burden of self defense proof lessen? I don't know if that makes any sense. Obviously this is a different situation that some guy bucking up at a party.OULobo said:
Under most circumstances that you describe, you have a "Duty to Retreat", rather than fight - unless of course you are backed into a corner or a physical assault in the view of a reasonable person, is imminent.SAkenpo said:
However, IIRC, the original poster was speaking of a VERBAL assault, sans immediate physical threat.
DeLamar.J
3rd Black Belt
The way I like to deal with people who like to start trouble is to tell them that I know they are nothing but all talk and no action, say it very loudly so everyone can hear it, this way they will feel like they need to do something to save face. Then if they dont do anything than your point is proven, then walk away. If they decide to fight you, then everyone can see them approach you first. Then you can defend your self legaly.
That is a win win strategy for punks because if you dogg them out bad enough by making it very clear that they are all talk in front of alot of people, if they do nothing you win, and if they do something you can kick there ***. LEGALY.
PS. make sure to let them get a punch off!
That is a win win strategy for punks because if you dogg them out bad enough by making it very clear that they are all talk in front of alot of people, if they do nothing you win, and if they do something you can kick there ***. LEGALY.
PS. make sure to let them get a punch off!
Han-Mi said:
To be fair I was 13 when that happened. But whenever I try for a peaceful resolution it usually works, though a few times it was quite an annoying situation afterward. One time I told a manager at an arcade some guys were drunk and trying to pick a fight and they kicked me out with them. I was pretty angry at that, but ya, I suppose you are right. It was my fault with the back of the head, i just get in a bad mood about that kind of stuff.
Hmm, that reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from Herbert George Wells (H.G. Wells of War of the World fame): "The first man to raise a fist... is the first one to run out of ideas."OULobo said:
Good post Lobo
But you honestly shouldn't beat down on yourself because you were unable to talk your way out of the fight. Remember it takes two (or more) to tango. Sometimes you are faced with a moron that wants to get into it no matter what happens. You can open a brief case full of money and the guy still want's "...to kick your ***" <sarcastically speaking>. Ok that's a bit extreme but I think it gets my idea across. I've watched and been in fights where the other guy was seemingly listening intently... then whammo right out of the blue. Either they were looking for a trigger word (like some demented Pee-wee Herman's playhouse "word of the day") or just building up enough nerve or making mental assessments to your vuneralbility.
There are people out there where nothing less than a good ole' *** whuppin will do, sometimes it don't matter if it's yours or theirs that gets whupped.
We humans are a violent lot and years of repression just leads to outbursts that are as small as a family squabble to a good ole fashioned world war.
So if you can't talk your way out... it not (always) your fault. Just sometimes have to know what to say. :idunno: Yeah, right.. good luck huh?
S
SAkenpo
Guest
Sorry, that was stated pooly. I meant be more careful with your actions. I don't know what kind of parties people are going to but I haven't had to worry about being confronted at a party/bar since the good old college days. Before Texas passed the law to make carrying concealed weapon/handgun legal for those who are licensed, it was still legal to have a legally bought gun with you when you traveled out of town for a period of time. The reasoning for this is that you are going into areas you are unfamiliar with (incase of self defense situations). You could not have a gun with you if you were just driving around town. I guess that is were my logic came from that if your were in an unfamiliar area or confronted in the street when you were not asking for trouble (i.e. talking trash in a bar) that you could be expected to use your abilities for self defense. I guess that is just a perception on my part.MJS said:
I'm not going to lie to you: yes, dealing with bullies and walking away, with them hurling insults in your direction isn't pleasant. It leaves a feeling of seething anger, and we've all been tempted to simply go back and finish the job. Sometimes, you're left with the image of the bully gleefully gloating, and that makes you even angrier. We're all human beings, and this can easily happen to any of us.
Most of the folks on this forum are perfectly capable of ending a conflict using martial arts abilities (throwing, striking, etc). Just because we have the ability to do so, though, does not necessarily mean that it's the best choice in the long run.
As practitioners of the martial arts, it's our duty to take the high road, and control ourselves. While we've all been tempted to smash the fist into the nose of the bully, or to get him into a nasty arm bar and break his arm, we have to ask ourselves, what are the consequences of this action?
If you dispatch the bully in such a manner, he'll probably try to take you to civil court, especially in this day and age of litigation. While you'll probably win the court case, that's lost time, and money on your part (lawyer fees can be expensive). Furthermore, there's always the chance that some corrupt jury could side with him, and have you out a good sum of money.
Then, of course, there's always the likelihood that the bully, being beaten once, would come after you (with a bunch of his buddies), or even your loved ones, putting them through the same miseries that you didn't like.
All of this merely points out, that it's better to avoid a conflict, and swallow one's pride, than to go for instant gratification and have to deal with potentially unpleasant consequences in the future.
Now, that being said, there will be times that conflict is simply unavoidable. If that happens, you'd better defend yourself to the best of your ability, and hold back nothing!
Most of the folks on this forum are perfectly capable of ending a conflict using martial arts abilities (throwing, striking, etc). Just because we have the ability to do so, though, does not necessarily mean that it's the best choice in the long run.
As practitioners of the martial arts, it's our duty to take the high road, and control ourselves. While we've all been tempted to smash the fist into the nose of the bully, or to get him into a nasty arm bar and break his arm, we have to ask ourselves, what are the consequences of this action?
If you dispatch the bully in such a manner, he'll probably try to take you to civil court, especially in this day and age of litigation. While you'll probably win the court case, that's lost time, and money on your part (lawyer fees can be expensive). Furthermore, there's always the chance that some corrupt jury could side with him, and have you out a good sum of money.
Then, of course, there's always the likelihood that the bully, being beaten once, would come after you (with a bunch of his buddies), or even your loved ones, putting them through the same miseries that you didn't like.
All of this merely points out, that it's better to avoid a conflict, and swallow one's pride, than to go for instant gratification and have to deal with potentially unpleasant consequences in the future.
Now, that being said, there will be times that conflict is simply unavoidable. If that happens, you'd better defend yourself to the best of your ability, and hold back nothing!
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