@wab25
Let me be clear - it's not that I don't value your opinion. It's that there are certain things that you don't understand because you haven't experienced it. Just like I can't tell you what it's like to live in Europe, because I've never been to Europe. Sure, it's a Western culture, just like America. Sure, there's a lot in common with the US. But there are also a lot of things that are probably different, and I won't know what those are until I'm there.
Now, I hinted above that I value your opinion, and that's true. I value your opinion of the efficacy of training models. I would welcome a discussion on the differences between your training in Karate and my training in Taekwondo, and the pros and cons of each. I've learned a ton from people who have no Taekwondo training. I've been watching a lot of videos lately from Jesse Enkamp (karate), Ginger Ninja Trickster (ITF TKD, which I take KKW TKD), Chewjitsu (BJJ), and I don't remember the name but there was a really good 50-minute course on Muay Thai clinches I was watching. On this forum, I get tons of advice from several people. Half of them I don't know what art they train, and half of the remainders don't train TKD.
However, nobody is trying to tell me what is taught in my class, as if they know better than me what I've been doing for the last 6 years, and 10 years total in my life. None of them tell me that I don't know how my art is taught, when I've been mentored in how to teach it for the last 5 years. They tell me their experiences, and compare our experiences, instead of just assuming that they know everything about my art.
So if you want to talk about the difference in approach between simply rote copying technique, vs. working out applications through bunkai, be my guest. If you want to tell me that you prefer Karate because of it, be my guest. But don't tell me that you know more about the culture and classes of my art, when you've read a few articles and I've been doing it for a third of my life.
Let me be perfectly clear. I've read your posts in the past on the Karate approach to forms, and I've liked it. I've wished that's the way forms were done in Taekwondo, and they're not. So I would accept these (or others like them) as valid opinions:
- I prefer Karate because we follow the Shu Ha Ri method
- Karate is better because we follow the Shu Ha Ri method
- Taekwondo should follow the Shu Ha Ri method
- You could use the Shu Ha Ri method, even if you don't train it in class
- You could use the Shu Ha Ri method in your school, even if other schools don't
- You should use the Shu Ha Ri method (instead of "could" for #4 and #5)
- Here are the pros and cons of the Shu Ha Ri method, as compared to what you describe
- I don't understand how you can learn without the Shu Ha Ri method
The only one I don't accept is: "You say you don't train this method, but you do."
This is the problem. You're either treating me like I am lying about my experience, or that I'm too stupid to even know what my experience is. You are not listening to what I say, or considering my experience as valid. You can express all sorts of opinions on why your way of training is better, or what I can gain by incorporating some of your learning into mine. I'm perfectly okay with that. My problem is that when I tell you how it works in real TKD classes, you just completely dismiss everything I say, because it doesn't match with an article you read.
Sounds like there are principles beyond just copying.
These are just copying. You copy the movement, which includes every part of you. When you step and punch, you copy:
- The way you step
- How hard you land when you step
- The stance you land in
- The direction and power of the punch
- The exact chamber and finishing position of the punch
- The timing of the technique
- The breathing during the execution of the technique
- All of the other little details, like where your eyes are, where your shoulders and hips point, your toes, everything
The more advanced you get, the more details you learn. But they're details that you copy. You copy the step, the punch, the stance, the timing, the breathing.
What you don't do is take the beats in the form and apply them. We never:
- Go over the combos in the forms with a partner and see how they would apply
- Incorporate the patterns in the forms into our self defense or sparring training (including the hand combinations or footwork)
- Discuss the possible applications of techniques in the forms
- Expand on parts of a form, i.e. take steps 1-6 and use them in a practical setting
- Discuss more practical versions of techniques (for example, going from a hard block to a soft parry)
From most discussions I've had, these things simply don't happen in Taekwondo training. Now, we do all of those things, but not in relation to the forms. We have applicable combos and patterns. We have self defense and sparring drills. We train against each other with practical techniques. We do figure out how to take the foundational techniques and use them in more efficient ways. But if you completely removed the forms from the equation, nothing else would be impacted, because those techniques and drills can be taught on their own, and the drills look nothing like the form.
So yes, it is completely about copying. The deeper you get into a form, the more you learn how to copy 100% of what your instructor or Master is doing. This is what I gleaned from watching videos of people going through the Master's course. These are 4th and 5th degree black belts, going over the KKW Black Belt forms curriculum. And what are they learning? How to copy the Master Instructor who is teaching the class. How to exactly do the movements in the form, how to copy what they're doing.
That's why I think you're wrong about how things work. These are the people training Master candidates from Kukkiwon, and their training is 100% in Step 1. Copy. How to copy better. Everything about my poomsae training in both schools I've been, has been how to copy. If you look at videos online of the Taegeuks or black belt forms, they all look the same. There is only discussion of the technique, only what to copy. There is no discussion of variation or application, just the precise motions you are supposed to make.
I have a bit of an obsessive personality, in case you couldn't tell by my post count or the length of my posts on this forum. If practicing the applications of forms was common in Taekwondo, I would have found it by now. Trust me. I've been asking these questions for the last 6 years, and I haven't found many references of this being done in Taekwondo. Those which I have, have either been sketchy, or aren't even applying the techniques they say they are (i.e. the application of an outside block using an inside motion).
I think I know what
is taught in Taekwondo. If you want to argue about what
should be taught, or why your training is
better because of what you get out of it, I'm perfectly open to that debate. If you want to lament the fact that "application of forms" is basically a marketing shtick in KKW documentation and other articles, because it doesn't actually happen in TKD, go for it. Or if you know of an online community where applications of forms
is being discussed (and I'm talking real application, not supposition or armchair warriors), then I'd love to have that reference.
The
only conversation I don't want to have, is for you to simply tell me that my experiences are false.