Vote: Reorganized Reputation System.

[exile]

Some people have been mentioning some things about a thumbs up/thumbs down system. So perhaps we could add something like that, in addition to the rep system. That way, perhaps less posts similar to those above find their way into threads, because they seem rather pointless; to me, at least.

Why post something which has no new information or thoughts or anything? Kinda... a waste of space

Well, now, Ella, if the posts in question add `no new information or thoughts or anything', and are `kinda... a waste of space', then exactly how would a thumbs up/thumbs down commentary be any better? If all it did was encode the same thing that the posts which you're dismissing do, then how would it have any more value than those same posts? If the posts seem `rather pointless' (to you, at least), then exactly how would the thumbs up/down information be any less pointless? After all, if all you're talking about is alternative way of expressing something you think has no value, then how would it be an improvement? And if it isn't, why would you suggest it?

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing how your suggestion adds up to anything different from what you're complaining about. I don't share your assessment of those posts in the least, btw, but given your view of them, why would you offer a counterproposal that conveyed no more information than they do?

 

[Kacey]

Current vote is:
36 Keep it
27 Change it
673 not voting/no opinion (based on member logins since poll began)

Some people have been mentioning some things about a thumbs up/thumbs down system. So perhaps we could add something like that, in addition to the rep system. That way, perhaps less posts similar to those above find their way into threads, because they seem rather pointless; to me, at least.

Why post something which has no new information or thoughts or anything? Kinda... a waste of space

If you don't like it, then don't participate in it. There's no one holding a gun to your head and forcing you to log on to MT. The majority of the voters favor leaving the system as it is at the moment. Should that change, I have no doubt that the ideas posted in this thread will be considered as possible changes. Unless and until that time... what's the point of your comments, other than to repeat things you've already said? You know... the same thing you're accusing others of doing.

 

[arnisador]

Well, now, Ella, if the posts in question add `no new information or thoughts or anything', and are `kinda... a waste of space', then exactly how would a thumbs up/thumbs down commentary be any better?

Well, now, Exile, I assume she was referring to the KenpoTalk-style thumbs up/thumbs down rep,. system that Bob Hubbard mentioned earlier in this thread, where someone can leave a comment that appears as rep. does here--viewable only by the recipient--with a thumb symbol to make clear whether the comment is intended to be positive or negative, but without a score being calculated. This lets the AOLers get their "Me too!!!" posts out of their system without derailing the thread. That would be better.

There's no one holding a gun to your head and forcing you to log on to MT.

Good point. I agree with Kacey. If you dislike any aspect of this site, or think the board could be improved in any way, PLEASE GO AWAY!!!

 

[Carol]

Well, now, Exile, I assume she was referring to the KenpoTalk-style thumbs up/thumbs down rep,. system that Bob Hubbard mentioned earlier in this thread, where someone can leave a comment that appears as rep. does here--viewable only by the recipient--with a thumb symbol to make clear whether the comment is intended to be positive or negative, but without a score being calculated. This lets the AOLers get their "Me too!!!" posts out of their system without derailing the thread. That would be better.



Good point. I agree with Kacey. If you dislike any aspect of this site, or think the board could be improved in any way, PLEASE GO AWAY!!!

KenpoTalk's rep system has a score associated with it. I think it may be a bit different from MT's but there is definitely a score calculated.

However, there is also a "Thanks" system where one can push a button and have a signed "thanks" appear in-thread.

While this doesn't count towards a "score", each member's post does describe how many times they have given "Thanks" and how many times they have received "Thanks".

 

[arnisador]

KenpoTalk's rep system has a score associated with it. I think it may be a bit different from MT's but there is definitely a score calculated.

However, there is also a "Thanks" system where one can push a button and have a signed "thanks" appear in-thread.

OK, I thought only the "Thanks" system was implemented, but this post doesn't say it's the only one.

 

[Carol]

OK, I thought only the "Thanks" system was implemented, but this post doesn't say it's the only one.

The "Thanks" system was implemented first, then the reputation system was added afterwards. I think Bob spotlights it a lot because it has been successful over there, and its different than the rep system.

I think the thanks system on KT gets used a lot more, for a couple of reasons. One is because it was first, and its easy. The other is, the reputation system requires 20 unique rep hits before repping someone again. That may work on Martial Talk but on Kenpo Talk that is a bit more of a challenge due to the smaller number of active users. It's a little frustrating because I keep getting advised that I need to spread my rep around, but with a 20 name cycle I keep forgetting who I've repped and
not repped. Opening up separate windows to view user CP...before repping a post...sometimes it takes longer to rep a post than it does to read a post.

The reputation is public. One thing I was a little disappointed to see is that the public rep didn't stop the in-thread off-topic squabbles that fall to the subject of rep instead of the posted topic.

Here on MT, we might see someone say "Whoever neg repped me for XXXXXX, I think you're full of bull."

Unfortunately over there we've seen some squabbles where one member calls another member out for neg repping them in the thread, and that becomes even more distracting because the person called out is likely to respond and put their two cents in and a hockey game ends up breaking out.

Thats been the biggest disadvantage that I see - if a squabble does happen, it gets personal.

There are, however, a few options that are workable. It may be more a matter of finding the right combination.

 

[exile]

This lets the AOLers get their "Me too!!!" posts out of their system without derailing the thread.

How does an assent derail the thread??

If you're having a conversation with friends, or even with non-friends, and someone says, `You know, that's a really good point', do you feel that the conversation has been derailed? If you're talking about wine, say, and someone says, `I think this increased alcohol content in wine across the board is a really bad thing' and someone else says `yes, I've been thinking that ever since it began', is that quite the same thing as a response to the first comment along the lines of `Well, think of it as an increase in gasoline octane, ... and while we're on the subject, don't you think that all these new six-cylinder models are just a marketing scheme?' A `me too' doesn't inherently derail the thread; on the contrary, it serves to emphasize that one of the positions on the table has multiple backers whom you need to convince if you want to successfully defend a different position. And that's a component of the conversation that the thumbs up/down setup undercuts.

Based on this last post, what you (and Ella?) seem to be saying is, if you agree with any of the positions already stated, we don't wanna hear about it. But... do you really operate by that rule in a conversation with your pals over a beer or two? Do you actually regard essentially phatic posts, of the kind you dismiss as originating from `AOLers', as disruptions of the proper business of a thread?

 

[jks9199]

Bob, I know this is just a little off topic...

As I post, the poll is showing about 63 votes. I recall an earlier post mentioning some 670+ members...

Do you have any way to figure out about how many of those members vote and read regularly? For example, I used to visit a mountain bike forum a lot... but haven't as much lately. I'm still a member there... but if you look at raw membership for something and assess a non-vote as a vote for the status quo -- I'm really dead weight. My non-vote there isn't "let's stay with the status quo"; it's "I haven't checked into things lately..." (Of course, we can string this even deeper here, like how many people haven't voted simply because they haven't read it...)

A similar problem is in counting "views"; I've viewed this thread at least 3 times today, alone, just because someone changed something.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I can't (without some hacking) tell who viewed this thread...but I have to believe that if it was of interest, they would have read it.

 

[Brian King]

“There's no one holding a gun to your head and forcing you to log on to MT”

Hey folks an opinion was asked for. Beating on somebody, being rude, being mean, just because their opinion is different than yours is childlike and this board deserves better. If you do not like what they post then post your views but do not try to stifle the communication. The very fact that so many are taking this personally tells us all something about the people here and how we are responding should also tell us about this community. I run a couple of small businesses and when I ask for opinions I had better listen. I do not get angry at those that do not tell me what I want to hear. I have to value their honesty and thank them for it even if it is very personal and hard to swallow. If you do not want to hear contrarian opinions then say so. We can all post me too posts and sing folk songs together. To say take it or leave it. Do not contribute or try to contribute to improve if it goes against the supposed majority shows shallowness and selfishness and frankly a shortsightedness.

If you want to be mad at somebody be mad at BOB. He asked for the opinion and this is his board. If you do not like the fact that some have been given the chance to voice their opinions perhaps take your petty anger out at Bob for providing these pesky contrarians the means of stating their views and upsetting you.

The vote stands so far 36 to 27. A mathematician can tell me what the percentage is, I do not know, but what I do know is that if I have customers or employees and I am only pleasing them by that percentage, I will not be in business long. I have to strive to get better and better. I can not rest thinking that well, I please half and a bunch held their noses but still did business with me and others are doing business but are not bragging me up to others and grow my businesses. I have to always strive to improve or the guy up the street will pass me by. The fact that more than half think improvement can be made shows that yes there may be room for improvement I should think.

There has been so much rude behavior on this thread. Drac and other moderators amongst the guilty and yet still some people get on and voice their opinions. Bob and the others that enjoy this forum, that have made some kind of investment in the forum whether financial or emotional should thank those people for caring enough to put themselves in the position of voicing their opinions even while knowing that it may be unpopular. That willingness to discuss things is what makes this forum an interesting place to visit and invest some time reading and contributing too.

There is no gun being put to my head, I can go elsewhere…easily. I choose to be here. I chose to participate in a discussion where I think that my asked for opinion might be heard and perhaps listened to as a responsibility to give back to Bob and the forum. Bob asked for my and your opinion with his poll as a means of improving this forum (and perhaps his other forums as well) and at least letting people give their ideas in public, only to have them mocked, call whiners, losers and to be told to go elsewhere by others including so called staff is rude, not only to Bob, but to every member of this forum. You folks are selling yourselves short and rather than striving for continued improvement you are shooting yourselves in you own foot and worse as a member of the forum you are shooting my foot as well.

Bob, as we cannot seem to have an adult conversation about this subject, perhaps next time a poll with no comments allowed until after the vote. No trying to influence the vote, no trying to brow beat people into agreeing with whatever opinion. Perhaps Bob have a discussion for a week, then a poll (with a discussion black out) for a week, then a discussion to after to discuss the polls results. Or as owner of the board Bob grow a set LOL and do what you want, end of discussion after all this is not a democracy.

Brian King

 

[grydth]

Brian, you'd hope the Forum as a whole would learn from this thread.

Some of our fellow critics I feel made a crucial error. This should have been a vote and debate over improvements to an ancillary function of this Forum. It seems to have been framed as an attack on the integrity of those who possess high reputation numbers, that there's a sinister daisy chain of inbred repping going on. You're not going to achieve change that way... and I don't think the personal accusations had merit.

But, then - the Forum Admin holds a poll and a thread...many reply in a critical fashion... and in some cases when a person disagreed in response to that invitation, his own agents empty chamber pots over some of the dissenters and invite them to depart? There's a little disconnect there. The opportunity for self examination and review ought to be welcomed.

Nobody comes here originally to read reputation points; they come to exchange views on serious issues with fellow martial artists. It is not a healthy sign when we cannot debate relatively minor issues like this without the custard pies flyin'. Both sides need to take some pause and meditation on this one.

 

[LawDog]

In posts #170 & #171 made were a few good points.

 

[MJS]

I'm in full agreement with Lawdog. Posts 170 and 171 echo my thoughts and something that I said a few pages back. The idea of this poll was to get feedback. If you want to post suggestions then do so, but to piss and moan back and forth, back and forth is getting nowhere! If people enjoy this forum as much as they say, then I'd think that making some positive contributions would be a much better route to take, than worrying about rep, who has the highest etc. How old are we all here?

As I have already said before, the Steering Board of this forum (Supermods and above) are also actively working on a solution. This poll will be closing soon, and frankly, that time can't come soon enough. We hope to, at that time, process all of this info. and make a decision.

In the meantime, instead of going back and forth, like tires spinning in the mud, why not go out to the various sections and make some posts? Why not start some threads and discuss the Martial Arts? I'm sure theres more to talk about than who has the highest rep.

Mike

 

[Drac]

In the meantime, instead of going back and forth, like tires spinning in the mud, why not go out to the various sections and make some posts? Why not start some threads and discuss the Martial Arts? I'm sure theres more to talk about than who has the highest rep

Bravo MJS, well said...

 

[arnisador]

don't you think that all these new six-cylinder models are just a marketing scheme?

Why does Martialtalk have more than one thread?

You seem to be taking me to task for expecting some degree of on-topic content, yet that is MartialTalk's rule, not mine.

Of course not every "me too" derails a thread--it's more a cascade of them that has that effect, as people forget the subject and react to language (vice content) in the last few light posts--yet there's a reason you recognize "me too" as indicative of a type of post that often waters down a thread even if at other times it's encouraging. But if such natural thread drift is not a concern, why are off-topic warnings posted by the staff? The comparison to real-life conversations is exactly wrong. This is a different medium. Here's another wrong comparison: If you bought a book on motorcycle engine repair and on the second page the author drifted off on a tangent to helmet laws and never returned to the stated subject, would you be OK with that?

what you (and Ella?) seem to be saying is, if you agree with any of the positions already stated, we don't wanna hear about it.

Speaking for myself, it's quite to the contrary. I thought people have made several good points that I hadn't considered. For example, I addressed a few of them here. I just seem to have a different understanding of what a discussion forum is than some others.

 

[Kreth]

Why post something which has no new information or thoughts or anything? Kinda... a waste of space

Oh, the irony...

 

[exile]

Why does Martialtalk have more than one thread?

You seem to be taking me to task for expecting some degree of on-topic content, yet that is MartialTalk's rule, not mine.

No, I'm not. What I'm questioning is your premise that `me too' threads are somehow intrinsically connected to thread drift. The post from you I queried take that as a starting point; I don't think you've made any kind of case for it, though.

Of course not every "me too" derails a thread--it's more a cascade of them that has that effect, as people forget the subject and react to language (vice content) in the last few light posts--yet there's a reason you recognize "me too" as indicative of a type of post that often waters down a thread even if at other times it's encouraging.

Any response—positive, negative, contentless, contentful—can go off-topic. My experience on MT is that a post with a lot of content is just as likely as a `light' post to derail a thread, because the more `meat' there is to the post, the more issues get put on the table that are very likely to spark a reader's off-topic response. Cite some MA authority on a certain point about kata, and you may very well get a `Yeah, but he also said that blah, blah, blah, which Motobu thought was idiotic' and then you get into this guy's problems with Choki Motobu and now you've reached escape velocity. There's nothing you've said which on the face of it shows that `me too' posts are any more likely to lead to thread drift than any other kind of post, so I just don't follow your argument here.

But if such natural thread drift is not a concern, why are off-topic warnings posted by the staff? The comparison to real-life conversations is exactly wrong. This is a different medium. Here's another wrong comparison: If you bought a book on motorcycle engine repair and on the second page the author drifted off on a tangent to helmet laws and never returned to the stated subject, would you be OK with that?

Wait a second: a manual is on the written page (roughly) what a lecture on a topic is in a verbal channel. You don't expect either a manual or a formal lecture to drift off-topic, because they are both monologue expositions of a certain limited content which the presenter knows, the reader or hearer doesn't and needs to learn about. That's why they've bought the manual or gone to the lecture. MT is a discussion forum. It has many of the same characteristics as a verbal discussion, because discussions, regardless of their medium, involve a number of interacting voices and perspectives, different interests and emphases, and so on. Two different media, but that difference is irrelevant so far as their common basis in a certain kind of human activity called conversation. You've not given any reason why a hearty `well done' or `me too' or `thanks!' are fine on the verbal channel but unacceptable on the written/electronic channel.

Speaking for myself, it's quite to the contrary. I thought people have made several good points that I hadn't considered. For example, I addressed a few of them here. I just seem to have a different understanding of what a discussion forum is than some others.

I'm not sure how this bears on the questions I have about what you're saying. Ella quoted from several posts where people were saying `I agree', in so many words, and then dismissed these posts as `wastes of space'. You followed up with the still stronger claim that such posts were not only `AOLer' products but were off topic, and now you still simply seem to be just equating them with thread-drift bait. Unless you can show that such post really do lead to off-topic posts that seriously derail a thread, in a way that any other type of post doesn't, I just don't see the basis for your and Ella's extremely negative judgments about people's agreement posts.

 

[arnisador]

I just don't see the basis for your and Ella's extremely negative judgments about people's agreement posts.

To say that my opinion is extremely negative is not correct. These posts can be made in-thread or in-rep. I'm not suggesting anything like banning them in-thread. I'm suggesting that having the option of doing it in-rep. is beneficial. Personally, I'd typically be inclined to post mine there (remembering the 'USENET salute' problem), or in a similar system such as Carol Kaur outlined from KT; others will prefer to do it in-thread. Having the option of doing it via rep. is a good thing, in which regard I have always found the rep. system valuable.

 

[shesulsa]

But if such natural thread drift is not a concern, why are off-topic warnings posted by the staff? The comparison to real-life conversations is exactly wrong. This is a different medium. Here's another wrong comparison: If you bought a book on motorcycle engine repair and on the second page the author drifted off on a tangent to helmet laws and never returned to the stated subject, would you be OK with that?



Speaking for myself, it's quite to the contrary. I thought people have made several good points that I hadn't considered. For example, I addressed a few of them here. I just seem to have a different understanding of what a discussion forum is than some others.

Clearly your last statement is quite true, since the art of conversation is NOT a book by any means whatsoever.

And since having been a former administrator here you know how conversation ebbs and flows and how things work behind the scenes. You also know, of course, that debating board policy is against the rules.

 

[Drac]

Speaking for myself I cannot wait until this thread get locked PERMANENTLY....