Minimum Standards for Taekwondo

[TigerWoman]

If its physically possible, I believe people rise to the occasion. When I joined TKD over 8 yrs. ago, nobody did full body pushups just split pushups and only 50 were asked. Then one day as a blue belt, I was asked to do a full body pushup. I thought, you got to be kidding. I could get in the up position and it was difficult enough just to hold that. He had mercy though, he put a chest gear underneath me if I crashed my face into the floor. I couldn't do one. I could get up to 100 split pushups, then 200, then 300. Then I started on full body. Last year, I did them in sets. First ten good ones, rest 30 sec., then as many as I could do until muscle failure. I continued on those doing sets, plus total gym-upper body pulldowns etc. until I built up to 50 push ups, then next set 40, 30, 20 10. I worked my sets up to count finally close to 400 total pushups. (maybe not all good but they were a pushup) My last round I did do 100 good ones prior to breaking. I was age 53 then and now at 55 I can still do 50 easy and probably alot more but probably not up to 100 again unless I worked it again. I'm no unusual woman either. Just average. I think if I can do it, anybody without neck, shoulder, back problems etc. absolutely can. And I intend to do it at age 60 too. TW

 

[MichiganTKD]

While I have no issue with setting standards, I believe the standards should be set to reflect the goals of the institution. I have no problem with the idea of "culling" the weaker people from the group. If you are looking for canadates for special forces. If you are holding a competition and trying to take the top prize. If your goal is the create the top fighters in the world.




I have always thought of traditional TKD as an activitiy meant to improve a person- physically and mentally. I never found it to be about eliminating the weak, but making the "weaK" stronger and giving them tools they need to survive in both life and self-defense. I never said lower the standards because it would be harder for some people. I advocate realistic expectations for people. I can realistically expect the average 60 year old woman of sound mind to perform all of her forms. I can not expect the average 60 year old woman of sound body to give me 80 push ups.

Very true. While eliminating the weak might apply to the Special Forces or the Korean National Team, it should not apply to your average Tae Kwon Do school. Even for Dan testing. Traditional TKD is about building you up, making you a stronger and better person, helping you realize your potential. But not because you MUST be physically fit. It certainly helps though.
You start implementing physical fitness standards that many people might not reach for the sake of producing strong students, and you will probably lose a lot of students. If a student wants to attain certain goals on their own that's fine. But no Instructor has the right to say "if you want 1st Dan, you must be able to do 100 pushups, 1000 crunches, 500 side kicks etc." That's got nothing to do with being a 1st Dan. It's something you can work on in the pursuit of 1st or 2nd Dan, not a requirement itself.

 

[Adept]

While I have no issue with setting standards, I believe the standards should be set to reflect the goals of the institution. I have no problem with the idea of "culling" the weaker people from the group. If you are looking for canadates for special forces. If you are holding a competition and trying to take the top prize. If your goal is the create the top fighters in the world.

Well, as you rightly point out, it depends on your goal. The goal of our school is to produce the best students possible. To be a black belt means you are not only technically competent, but that you also have very good stamina, that you are strong and fast, and flexible. People who are incapable of fitting the model of a black belt should not have a black belt. If a person with an artificial leg attempted to become a black belt, I see no reason for him to get special dispensation.

I have always thought of traditional TKD as an activitiy meant to improve a person- physically and mentally. I never found it to be about eliminating the weak, but making the "weaK" stronger and giving them tools they need to survive in both life and self-defense.

I personally agree with this. I would prefer there be no ranking system at all. But we do have a ranking system, and each person is pushed to progress through it as far as they can. No one is asked to grade unless the instructors are satisfied they meet the cut. To fail a BB grading requires a serious mess up. Not everyone has the skill, determination or physique to be a black belt. It's just the way it is.

I advocate realistic expectations for people.

A agree. It is realistic to expect some people to become black belts, and for others it is not.

 

[TigerWoman]

But no Instructor has the right to say "if you want 1st Dan, you must be able to do 100 pushups, 1000 crunches, 500 side kicks etc." That's got nothing to do with being a 1st Dan. It's something you can work on in the pursuit of 1st or 2nd Dan, not a requirement itself.

How about more realistic goals of just 50 pushups too? If you can't do 50 pushups, how good will your punch or knife be? Guys have to speed punch a board for 1st dan in our school. 500 crunches?--but not for a test. We do 200 normally every class plus other lower ab stuff. If you had too many physical tests as well as all the forms, sparring etc etc., performance diminishes as the test goes on. The "edge" is taken off by 200 per leg rising kicks and the start of our bb tests. But I did the pushups at the end of the test pretty much when I thought I was wasted. Now, all those requirements I listed with the exception of flexibility, running, have to be met to get to recommended bb. Only one guy I know of, didn't eventually do his jump spin heel break and walked away. TW

 

[Shu2jack]

Well, as you rightly point out, it depends on your goal. The goal of our school is to produce the best students possible. To be a black belt means you are not only technically competent, but that you also have very good stamina, that you are strong and fast, and flexible. People who are incapable of fitting the model of a black belt should not have a black belt. If a person with an artificial leg attempted to become a black belt, I see no reason for him to get special dispensation.

I agree with you. It does depend on the goals of our schools and people who are incapable of fitting the model of a black belt should not have a black belt. It appears our disagreement comes from what we consider "makes" a black belt.

I agree that you must be technically competent, but why do you have to be so strong, fast, and flexible to such a degree that only a select group of people can reach? I am not saying that the guy with the artifical leg should get special treatment. I am saying that if guy knows his stuff, has the "right" attitude, and can take care of himself in a "situation", why can he not earn his black belt? Because he can't do a proper jump kick? Because he can't do X amount of squats?

I personally agree with this. I would prefer there be no ranking system at all. But we do have a ranking system, and each person is pushed to progress through it as far as they can. No one is asked to grade unless the instructors are satisfied they meet the cut. To fail a BB grading requires a serious mess up. Not everyone has the skill, determination or physique to be a black belt. It's just the way it is.

A agree. It is realistic to expect some people to become black belts, and for others it is not.

I agree, but again, that goes back to "What is a black belt?" I do not mean any disrespect, but it seems that your focus is too much on certain physical attributes and if people can reach this imaginary bar of requirements instead of if this person knows what he is talking about and knows how to use what he has effectively.

 

[Adept]

It appears our disagreement comes from what we consider "makes" a black belt.

This would appear to be the crux of the issue.

I agree that you must be technically competent, but why do you have to be so strong, fast, and flexible to such a degree that only a select group of people can reach?

The goals we set arent so unrealistic. Most people can achieve them.

I am not saying that the guy with the artifical leg should get special treatment. I am saying that if guy knows his stuff, has the "right" attitude, and can take care of himself in a "situation", why can he not earn his black belt? Because he can't do a proper jump kick? Because he can't do X amount of squats?

Well there is no reason he cant get a black belt, so long as he can hold his own in all regards with the other black belts.

I agree, but again, that goes back to "What is a black belt?" I do not mean any disrespect, but it seems that your focus is too much on certain physical attributes and if people can reach this imaginary bar of requirements instead of if this person knows what he is talking about and knows how to use what he has effectively.

Not at all. As I've stated before, no one is asked to grade unless they have already proven they know their stuff. The test itself is more of a formality. You would have to really stuff it up not to pass.

Black belts should be at the top of the grading system, with the Dans above that. Black belts should be very competent fighters, very fit and very strong. I dont see a reason why they shouldnt be. Most people are capable of making the grade if they train smart and hard. If a person knows their stuff, and knows how to use it effectively, then good for them. If they arent physically tough enough to put in the hard yards, then too bad. Black belts should be a goal for people to reach. People should look at them and think "Woah, the only way for me to get that is to work really hard." Not to think, "I can get one of those, all I have to do is remember the patterns*"

* - By this I mean technically competent. Being a black belt is more than simply knowing your stuff, its about being very competent in all aspects of fighting.

 

[Mithios]

Tecniques and stamina should be required on a testing, but a line has to be drawn somewere. I have seen people fail because they were not in the best of shape, stamina wise, even though there techniques and other requirement's were right on the money. And i have also seen them fail for the reverse. I think that age, physical limitation's etc. should be taken into account. An 18 year old, is probably going to have more stamina, be more limber etc, than a 60 year old that started later in life. Of course there are exeption's. But you all get what i am saying. Mithios

 

[Athena]

there is no "physical component" at our tests, as far as i know. if you don't have the stamina to run three miles, you don't have the stamina to finish the black belt test, and vice versa. i think our philosophy is that there's no point proving that twice.

i don't think flexibility should be a deciding factor as far as whether or not you pass a test. i can kick at head level, but that doesn't mean i'm going to win a fight againt someone who's stronger or faster. i personally think you need some of these physical attributes, but not all of them. speed can make up for strength, etc. there's no set rule about this at my school; instructors look at whether you can fight or not instead of obsessing over how you get the job done.

example: a very skinny girl may never be able to do 100 pushup, no matter how hard she works, but she could have all the speed in the world. speed can overcome a lack of strength when throwing punches if you have room. (although i'm assuming that in a testing sparring situation you always have room to throw punches and are not cornered against a wall, which could be wrong. does any of you ever have to do that?)

my school also has a self-defense component that goes into the tests. chokes as a white belt, hair pulls as a yellow, bear hugs at orange, then on to stick, knife, gun, etc. i think the main point of these is to show that TKD is not all-inclusive and to encourage exploration of different arts to round out martial arts training. they're extremely basic and would only work against someone who didn't have skills in knife arts. instructors stress that no, you are not ready for a knife fight just because you've learned three disarms.

final thought... if black belts are only for an elite set of people, what do you do when someone who has earned a black belt is no longer strong enough or skilled enough to "maintain" it? if i get my black belt at age 18 and keep training until i'm 75 and no longer able to jump high and run fast, are you going to take it away from me because i don't fit into your ideal breed of martial artists?

 

[dosandojang]

I use Kuk Ki Won too, but add in a little of my own reqs.

 

[Dr. Kenpo]

Not much other to chime in here other than the fact that I don't like required tournaments. I feel that competition is an aspect of taekwondo that can be explored individually and not required.

Same here, because many require you to also work at them to earn rank, and I don't agree with that. Why should I work for free, and the promoter gets all the profit?:asian:

 

[TigerWoman]

I use Kuk Ki Won too, but add in a little of my own reqs.

Would you care to elaborate on your own requirements? Even the Kuk Ki Won requirements are generalized and are open to interpretation by the master giving the tests. Or are more specific requirements for sparring, etc. given out by Kukkiwon?


Also regarding the duality of running and doing sparring. The running could be a pretest determiner of whether the student is ready physically to test. I know of some people who refuse to really lose weight, work on cardio. or strength. Also their tests show them sluggish and getting winded easily. They probably go 2-3 times a week and expect to test anyway regardless of how well they prepared and trained.

As an aging black belt myself, I can only expect diminishing returns for my efforts at training especially as my knees are getting worse. But as a teacher, I think a certain level has to be maintained. I can't very well teach a jump spin heel if I can't show how to do one. But in the future, I would still like to be able to keep my belt and exercise in classes when I couldn't do jump kicks anymore and teach them. TW

 

[dosandojang]

I follow ALL Kuk Ki Won Rules and Regs for my TKD ONLY Ranking, but since I teach a blend of:


TKD/TSD
HKD and Judo, I add more things in my Syllabus. I will post some basic guidelines when I have more time! Peace...

http://www.geocities.com/dosanmartialartsschool/
http://home.rconnect.com/~simmudo/members.html
http://www.masterssite.com/images/MtrArce.gif

 

[Miles]

Thank you Miles for the info! So if I take out all the age requirements and what not and everything from 2nd dan/poom on up. Is what i'm seeing that requirements for 1st dan in Kukkiwons minimum is:

Forms, sparring, breaking, and special techniques(not sure what this entitles)

Am I correct in what I am reading.

Yes. As far as "special technique" is concerned, I am not sure what that entails either. I will check with my GM.

Miles

 

[TigerWoman]

From what I understand for Kukkiwon, all breaks are left up to the master giving the test. So that is a variable for testing.

Is there also a variable on sparring? I've seen 2 min. rounds, 5 min rounds., 3 - 5 rounds. ??? Colored belt sparring opponents to our school's test which is all black belt opponents.

And then the forms also appear variable - Chung Do Kwan - only two Palgwe forms to Taeguek 7-8 forms. Our school does ten including Key Bong Hyung and Koryo. TW

 

[terryl965]

I follow ALL Kuk Ki Won Rules and Regs for my TKD ONLY Ranking, but since I teach a blend of:


TKD/TSD
HKD and Judo, I add more things in my Syllabus. I will post some basic guidelines when I have more time! Peace...

http://www.geocities.com/dosanmartialartsschool/
http://home.rconnect.com/~simmudo/members.html
[url="http://www.masterssite.com/images/MtrArce.gif"]http://www.masterssite.com/images/MtrArce.gif[/url]

I'm confuse earlier you said WTF standerds. well WTF does not incorporate others styles with there's so TSD HKD and Judo would never be part of a test if you are WTF. You dogged Dr. Beasley Org for being not WTF. I do not know him so I cannot comment about him, just confused. Please explain in detail so I can have a better understanding of your testing requirements. OK my mistake KukKiwon look forward to your reply.
Terry Lee Stoker

 

[dosandojang]

Uh, NO. I teach a blend of all four, but when Grading for Rank in WTF Style Tae Kwon Do, I follow ALL Kuk Ki Won (and WTF and USTU) rules, regs, etc. + what my Grand Master (Young Ik Han 9th Dan Kuk Ki Won) already has in place for Tae Kwon Do ONLY testing. Am I making myself clear yet? Also, I have NEVER dogged Dr. B. That was NOT my intention! Ask him, as I have spoken with him in e-mail! Peace...

 

[dosandojang]

Terry, get what I am saying now???? Even though I teach a Blend on a daily basis...When Testing time comes around for Tae Kwon Do ONLY, I follow ONLY the Tae Kwon Do format for Tae Kwon Do ONLY Ranking! So on that day when I test my students for Ranking in Tae Kwon Do ONLY, I make sure ALL rules, regs, standards, etc., are followed to a T! So NONE of my HKD, Judo, TSD Syllabus will be asked of for or during the Kuk Ki Won Testing Day! ONLY that which is required by the Kuk Ki Won (+ my Grand Master's syllabus. He is Ku Dan with the Kuk Ki Won, and has been running our Dojangs since the 70's! So he is a VERY SENIOR person in South Korea with the WTF, Kuk Ki Won, and USTU in the USA!), NOTHING ELSE! I then do the same thing with the other styles I teach, as I am Certified to teach and promote in them also!

 

[terryl965]

Terry, get what I am saying now???? Even though I teach a Blend on a daily basis...When Testing time comes around for Tae Kwon Do ONLY, I follow ONLY the Tae Kwon Do format for Tae Kwon Do ONLY Ranking! So on that day when I test my students for Ranking in Tae Kwon Do ONLY, I make sure ALL rules, regs, standards, etc., are followed to a T! So NONE of my HKD, Judo, TSD Syllabus will be asked of for or during the Kuk Ki Won Testing Day! ONLY that which is required by the Kuk Ki Won (+ my Grand Master's syllabus. He is Ku Dan with the Kuk Ki Won, and has been running our Dojangs since the 70's! So he is a VERY SENIOR person in South Korea with the WTF, Kuk Ki Won, and USTU in the USA!), NOTHING ELSE! I then do the same thing with the other styles I teach, as I am Certified to teach and promote in them also!

Why Thank you for explaining I do appreciate it also was not trying to offend anybody. I was under the impression you were more MMA and you combined them all, that's all. No Ill will towards anybody have a wonderful Holiday Season.
Terry Lee Stoker

 

[dosandojang]

Thanks Terry! Happy Holidays to you too!


Tae Kwon!
Pil Sung!

 

[Miles]

I follow ALL Kuk Ki Won Rules and Regs for my TKD ONLY Ranking, but since I teach a blend of:


TKD/TSD
HKD and Judo, I add more things in my Syllabus. I will post some basic guidelines when I have more time! Peace...

http://www.geocities.com/dosanmartialartsschool/
http://home.rconnect.com/~simmudo/members.html
[url="http://www.masterssite.com/images/MtrArce.gif"]http://www.masterssite.com/images/MtrArce.gif[/url]

Do you teach these other arts separately as well as blending some techniques into Taekwondo?

Miles