Voluntary Sex With Minors

[evenflow1121]

I have no problems with their faces being placed on National Television, in fact I like the idea, will make them think twice before they solicit children.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Sex may be common in culture amongst adults, but when kids are involved there seems to be a very funny line in the sand that is not to be crossed.

Yes, there is, but I don't think it's a funny line, IMO.

For those who think that this is simply a controversial topic where legitimate differences of opinion occur - would it change your opinion of ME if I bitched about the fact that the "intrusive government" wouldn't let me sleep with my fourteen year old neighbor? After all, she's pretty cute and those high school freshman are always great catches for middle-aged men (obviously not serious - I have no fourteen year old girl neighbor and would jump off of a cliff before I'd touch one, but you get the picture). Would you start to think of me as a possible sexual predator (not accusing the original poster of this, BTW) or simply write it off to cultural differences?

Also, the government legislates "morality" all the time - what about robbery, murder, fraud, etc? Personally, I don't think that adults having sex with fourteen-year olds is a "victimless" crime and I seen no reason for a "libertarian" attitude here. After all, the issue, as originally stated, was that of a fourteen year old and a legal adult. True, I admit to grey areas as to an eighteen year old and a seventeen year old - but not to a fourteen year old and a legal adult.

 

[Makalakumu]

I seem to remember a certain rainforest tribe (I can't remember the name) that initiated a ceremony for girls when they reached their first menses. The culminating act in the ceremony was a sexual act with an older man.

According to their spiritual beliefs, this ceremony opened the child's way to womanhood and was very important for the family and the girl in question.

A similar, yet more low key ceremony occured for boys when they started getting interested in the opposite sex. An older woman would take the young man under her wing and show him how to have sex and the kinds of things that women like.

In the little follow-up reading I've done on this, it seems as if ceremonies of this nature were fairly ubiquitous in the world's hunter/gatherer societies.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I seem to remember a certain rainforest tribe (I can't remember the name) that initiated a ceremony for girls when they reached their first menses. The culminating act in the ceremony was a sexual act with an older man.

According to their spiritual beliefs, this ceremony opened the child's way to womanhood and was very important for the family and the girl in question.

A similar, yet more low key ceremony occured for boys when they started getting interested in the opposite sex. An older woman would take the young man under her wing and show him how to have sex and the kinds of things that women like.

In the little follow-up reading I've done on this, it seems as if ceremonies of this nature were fairly ubiquitous in the world's hunter/gatherer societies.

There is also a tribe in I believe Borneo that worships airplanes. There are others that believe in scaring that borders mutilation and then of course the tribe that stretches the necks of women and if you go back to China, Pre-Mao it was just ducky to bind women's feet. And there is currently a minority in China that believes it is ok for a woman to have multiple intimate partners but it is not ok for men. However I would not suggest that any of these be practiced in the US or many Modern societies.

We do not live in the rainforest, we are not a small tribe and we have an INCREDIBLY different society with a WHOLE different set of rules.

As previously stated, there is no such thing as a consenting minor.

Sorry, the argument does not fly.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Most progressive nations have some sort of 'limit' on who can do what to whom when. See http://www.ageofconsent.com/

Now, one point I will make is that for US Citizens, it's confusing as hell to understand the law, as each state, has different and often very confusing laws.
The age of consent in some nations is as low as 12. BUT! If you are a US citizen in that country, you better stick to 18+, else risk 10 years jailtime when you return.

(b) Travel With Intent To Engage in Sexual Act With a Juvenile. - A person who travels in interstate commerce, or conspires to do so, or a United States citizen or an alien admitted for permanent residence in the United States who travels in foreign commerce, or conspires to do so, for the purpose of engaging in any sexual act (as defined in section 2246) with a person under 18 years of age that would be in violation of chapter 109A if the sexual act occurred in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.

Of course, one does not have to be 18 to get married either. In the US, with parental consent, you can marry as young as 14. So I, a 35 yr old, can marry a 14 yr old, as long as her parents agree.
But! I can't consumate that marriage until she's a few years older and I can't take pictures of her nude until she's 18, else I risk arrest. (Both have happened in the US).

That part, I do think is stupid.

But I do believe that laws should be on the books, in a more streamlined manner, that will help defend those who lack the reasoning and ability to defend themselves against the predators who hunt them.

 

[Kreth]

That part, I do think is stupid.

No more stupid than the fact that you can die for your country before you can legally drink...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

True. Very true.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Going back to the laws.

There are laws on the books defining when kids may work.
There are laws on the books defining what kids may NOT do while working.
There are laws on the books defining how much kids may work.
This is there as employers would (as they did) use kids for dangerous tasks and work them til they dropped.

There are laws on the books that seek to define what and with whom, so as to try and protect kids from adults who will manipulate and abuse them.

If 2 14 yr olds experiment, that is 1 thing. It's another for a 30 yr old to seek out a 14 yr old.

I have some problems with the laws. They are often confusing, and so varied as to be insane at times.

Hell, look at marriage laws: http://www.coolnurse.com/marriage_laws.htm

I at 35 can marry a 14 yr old in New Hampshire, as long as I get parental permission and a waiver.
I however can't consummate the relationship until she turns 16.
I can't take nude pictures until she turns 18.
Even though this would be my wife.
If she was 17, we don't need the parental ok to marry, and we can consummate the marriage, but I still couldn't take nude photos of her.
She also can't vote until shes 18, and cant drink until 21.
Which means if it's a church wedding, no wine for the bride.

That confusing mess is what bothers me.

But usually older guys who argue about these laws tend to be folks who don't necessarily want to remove crazy laws and the hand of government.
They simply want some young *** to play with.

And those folks...in my opinion....should be hung, drawn and quartered.

 

[Makalakumu]

There is also a tribe in I believe Borneo that worships airplanes. There are others that believe in scaring that borders mutilation and then of course the tribe that stretches the necks of women and if you go back to China, Pre-Mao it was just ducky to bind women's feet. And there is currently a minority in China that believes it is ok for a woman to have multiple intimate partners but it is not ok for men. However I would not suggest that any of these be practiced in the US or many Modern societies.

We do not live in the rainforest, we are not a small tribe and we have an INCREDIBLY different society with a WHOLE different set of rules.

As previously stated, there is no such thing as a consenting minor.

Sorry, the argument does not fly.

These girls and boys, within the context of their society, are giving consent to sex. Trying to view these norms within the fishbowl of our society is not going to give you any moral direction in this matter. The bottom line is that there is no such thing as something that is absolutely right and absolutely wrong.

upnorthkyosa

ps - It is a common reaction to redicule beliefs that are not understood within the context of one's societal norms. This is usually fueled by ignorance that borders on bigotry.

 

[Xue Sheng]

These girls and boys, within the context of their society, are giving consent to sex. Trying to view these norms within the fishbowl of our society is not going to give you any moral direction in this matter. The bottom line is that there is no such thing as something that is absolutely right and absolutely wrong.

upnorthkyosa

ps - It is a common reaction to redicule beliefs that are not understood within the context of one's societal norms. This is usually fueled by ignorance that borders on bigotry.

I am ridiculing nothing, if it is their belief fine. But the post is talking about in the USA and their beliefs you put forth do not apply to the situation nor are the applicable in the US. If you are using it as an example in response to the original post then my response is correct. My example were put forth in order to show you that they are equally as applicable, which is to say they do not apply at all.

The belief system they have in the rainforest is their belief system and I do not nor will I ever ridicule another system of belief. However it does not apply to the belief systems of Western Society.

PS - it is also common reaction to give a knee jerk response without actually reading the post one is responding to if one finds it contrary to what they are saying.

 

[Makalakumu]

I am ridiculing nothing, if it is their belief fine. But the post is talking about in the USA and their beliefs you put forth do not apply to the situation nor are the applicable in the US. If you are using it as an example in response to the original post then my response is correct. My example were put forth in order to show you that they are equally as applicable, which is to say they do not apply at all.

The belief system they have in the rainforest is their belief system and I do not nor will I ever ridicule another system of belief. However it does not apply to the belief systems of Western Society.

PS - it is also common reaction to give a knee jerk response without actually reading the post one is responding to if one finds it contrary to what they are saying.

My argument is simply this...if you claim that "No "Minors" Can Ever Give Consent," then you are wrong. Absolute statements such as that apply to the entire world if no caveat is given that limits it to just our society. Clearly, in some places on this Earth, minors do give consent for sex and it is perfectly acceptable for them to do so.

We have no moral arrow in our culture in which to judge this because the cultures in question are two different fishbowls. This is just another example of the relative nature of morality.

Also, I would like to highlight the contradictions that Bob Hubbard pointed out within our own society in regards to this matter. Apparently, in some circumstances, minors are able to give consent and it is not absolutely wrong.

With that being said, the statement...

As previously stated, there is no such thing as a consenting minor.

...clearly has no basis in reality. "Minors" in cultures across the world give consent for sex and in this country, there are legal pathways for them to do so.

 

[Kreth]

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[Xue Sheng]

My argument is simply this...if you claim that "No "Minors" Can Ever Give Consent," then you are wrong. Absolute statements such as that apply to the entire world if no caveat is given that limits it to just our society. Clearly, in some places on this Earth, minors do give consent for sex and it is perfectly acceptable for them to do so.

We have no moral arrow in our culture in which to judge this because the cultures in question are two different fishbowls. This is just another example of the relative nature of morality.

Also, I would like to highlight the contradictions that Bob Hubbard pointed out within our own society in regards to this matter. Apparently, in some circumstances, minors are able to give consent and it is not absolutely wrong.

With that being said, the statement...



...clearly has no basis in reality. "Minors" in cultures across the world give consent for sex and in this country, there are legal pathways for them to do so.

Interesting, but there is a major flaw in your argument here.

The article that originated this post is not about the Rainforest or Borneo or East Africa or Germany or Israel or Taiwan, It is about the USA. Therefore based on that the statement I made is true and strands. There is no such thing as a consenting minor.

Therefore any argument to the contrary whether that be based on the rainforest or any other society does not apply. If the article was talking about police arresting natives in a Rainforest for this act then you would have a point, but it is not, it is talking about the USA as am I.

This is like going to Court in NYC to defend a person that has had sex with a minor and saying your honor my client is innocent because minors can consent to have sex with an adult in the rainforest. I somehow do not think the Judge would be impressed.

Now as to your rainforest example, although I am not certain of this since I have never been there and do not know there laws, I seriously doubt the term “Minor” is even used.

Minor, in western society is legal terminology and therefore minors cannot consent to sex.

 

[Makalakumu]

Minor, in western society is legal terminology and therefore minors cannot consent to sex.

A 16 or 17 year old girl is considered a minor in most states. If I were to marry her, in some states, she could consent to have sex with me. Therefore, it is possible for a "minor" to give consent for sex.

This is not a cut and dry issue.

For example, let say the same girl gives consent to have sex with a 30 year old man. Does her being married suddenly give her the moral authority to have control over her own sexuality?

In both situations, this girl is still a minor, however, in one situation this girl can make decisions regarding her sexuality and in another, she cannot.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The 2 questions here are:
-Was the person in the rainforest when they had sex?
-Under what grounds/terms may a minor agree to sex legally?

Minor if defined as "Under 14" will usually, but not 100% turn up "never".
Its that 14-17 range thats sticky.

Of course, you need parental permission to marry in at least 5 US states if you are under 21.

 

[Kreth]

Of course, you need parental permission to marry in at least 5 US states if you are under 21.

Especially if you intend to marry outside the family...
Do I hear banjos?




:uhyeah:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Naw. I'm a Yankee.

 

[Xue Sheng]

A 16 or 17 year old girl is considered a minor in most states. If I were to marry her, in some states, she could consent to have sex with me. Therefore, it is possible for a "minor" to give consent for sex.

This is not a cut and dry issue.

For example, let say the same girl gives consent to have sex with a 30 year old man. Does her being married suddenly give her the moral authority to have control over her own sexuality?

In both situations, this girl is still a minor, however, in one situation this girl can make decisions regarding her sexuality and in another, she cannot.

Well at least we're out of the rainforest and back in the USA.


And it is still not possible for a minor to give consent to sexual intercourse.

If a person is considered a minor at 17 in Massachusetts and a person is considered a minor at 14 in Nevada (these are examples, I do not know the ages of consent in these states) it is not ok to have sex with a 15 year old in Massachusetts. A minor by definition, by state, cannot consent to sexual intercourse.

It's ok in another state is not a defense.

Different states have different ages of consent. And in some states you could marry a minor with consent of her parent or guardian, once again not the (legal) consent of said minor.

This is still not an unmarried minor, as the article is referring to, having sex with an adult. Marriage changes the scenario to something it is not in the article. Adult male not married to a minor looking for sex with said minor is a very different situation.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Especially if you intend to marry outside the family...
Do I hear banjos?
:uhyeah:

and are those banjos dueling

 

[Xue Sheng]

The 2 questions here are:
-Was the person in the rainforest when they had sex?
-Under what grounds/terms may a minor agree to sex legally?

Minor if defined as "Under 14" will usually, but not 100% turn up "never".
Its that 14-17 range thats sticky.

Of course, you need parental permission to marry in at least 5 US states if you are under 21.

agreed