Various religions denounce Koran burning. No one showed.

[Sukerkin]

By the way, just for interests sake, I should mention that, until recently, one of my work colleagues was one of "them".

He was a nice enough chap - a bit reserved and uneasy about how to fit in (especially when I was shooting my mouth off about immigration et al) but doing his best under the cirumstances.

Sadly, his cultural demands steered his course for him as his parents fitted him up with an arranged marriage and he had to go home. He wasn't happy about that at all but felt it was his obligation to do so as a dutiful son.

Hardly a 'demon' bent on the destruction of Western society.

 

[David43515]

You keep beating that drum, and never, once, admitting that Christians are, seemingly, required to put up with things that you, and others demand we insulate Muslims from, for our own safety.

That`s just it Don, we are required by commandment to "Turn the other cheek" and to "go the extra mile", to "Hate the sin but love the sinner" and to tolerate things we don`t agree with by "being in the world but not of the world". And even if we have no particular religous belief ourselves, we`ve grown up in a culture that was shaped by these ideals.

But we`re not dealing with people who were raised in the same culture as us. Thier culture was shaped by a religion that doesn`t tell you to forgive a sinner "7 times 70 times". Islam is an Abrahamic religion, but they didn`t go through the same radical changes that Christianity did. For example in the New Testement you have the woman guilty of adultary. The story ends with her not being stoned to death and being told to "Go and sin no more" (to return home and repent and make changes in her life.) In the Muslim world on the other hand there is a woman in Iran right now awaiting exicution by stoning for adultary. And as a side note there are reports she was given 99 lashes with a whip because a photo appeared in a British newspaper. They are told that revenge and punishment are thier religious duty in order to keep the peace and to provide a good example for others who might be tempted to commit the same sin.

That`s why even though we can`t fathom it, the kill thier daughters in "honor killings". They send thier sons to be suicide bombers because they think some some Isreali cheated thier Great Grandfather in a land deal 100 years ago. (How can your hate for your neighbor be stronger than your love for your kids?) They condem writers and cartoonists to death because of some ink on a peice of paper. And they riot on 3 continents over cartoon of Mohamed. And they do it all because in thier eyes that what it takes to be a good and decent person. We have to hold ourselve to a higher standard because our standards are completely different.

It takes time to build on the standards we have in common. And it doesn`t help to have morons like this so-called pastor in Florida throwing gasoline on the fire of our differences.

 

[Carol]

I suspect this has little to do with the Islam at all, and is more about some guy capitalizing on recent controversy for the sake of being an attention hound.

Some guy with either (a) a fading congregation or (b) a desire to be run some sort of uberchurch (or maybe both?) is trying really really hard to be relevant.

 

[Archangel M]

What "civil liberties" are we discussing in THIS thread?

This kooks right to burn a Koran? he does have that right.

This is the other side of the Mosque debate. While I don't agree with the timing and placement of the Mosque. I defend the RIGHT of the guy to build it. While this nut is...well a nut...what are you suggesting should be done here??

 

[Archangel M]

Sorry. I wont "turn the cheek" to a deadly threat. To a "slap" maybe..but to a threat of death?

I guess Im not that good of an X-tian.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

2.2 Billion Christians, 1.8 Billion Muslims....

Who's "They" again? I want full names, addresses and photo ID.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Some question for some of you...

1) Is he an American?
2) Does he not have the right to do as he pleases?
3) Nobody and their momma's really cares, but the press has done a great job on letting people know about it
4)He has his views nomatter how screwed up they are
5) What is and will happen has already been put into place, so all we can do is sit back and see how far this will go
6) They started this mess and he is just trying to make his point one way or another.

NO goddamnit NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
You're doing it too!

'They' didn't start this mess. A group of ****tards started this mess, using Islam simply as a vehicle for their hatred. I've said it before and I will say it again: Islam is not any more to blame for 9/11 than Christianity for the crusades.

What he does would be like someone saying 'I learned everything I need to know about the US when I saw the Rodney King video'. He is an idiot. Fair enough. But by saying things like your 6th point, you are validating him and implying that Islam really IS to blame for this when it is not true.

 

[Archangel M]

What I think feeds into this sentiment is the fact that there are organized and somewhat large groups of people who use Islam for violence. AlQueda, the Taliban etc. are not the lone McVeigh's. And it sure seems like a lot of "terror" from the 70's till today has had an Islamic flavor to it.

Add in the "Cartoon riots" and Rushdie style assassination orders by somewhat large Muslim orgs and it becomes easier to buy into the belief that this is a fundamental aspect of their religon. And while I am sure that many Imams make public rejections of these actions it seems like "we" never really see a widespread renouncement of the violence by greater Islam. This of course may just be because we don't see it in our media...where the less tolerant and/or educated in our society get the bulk of their information on topics they are not familiar with. When all you see is one "Munich"..Hijacking..bombing..9/11 after another over your life it gets easier to generalize.

 

[Archangel M]

To you, perhaps. Bees generally don't sting. Smacking a hive with a stick tends to produce a less salutary effect.

Isn't this like saying "Christianity is a peaceful religion. But don't allow abortions because people will die." ?

Do we shut down abortion clinics because of the odd fundienut?

Do we "shut down" this nutty preacher and his Koran bonfire?

I don't think many people here are saying "right on preacher!!!" I'm just saying what do you suggest?

 

[Archangel M]

That is a positive thing really, Don.

Christianity is a more mature faith and one of the few good things about it is that the churches, in Europe at least, have gone through their vandalistic, trouble-making, 'teenage years' and can now be exposed to piquant criticism without the urge to burn everyone at the stake.

The societies it is within (except, possibly, America) would not stand for it if it did start to behave like the radical Muslim sects are.

I dunno Suk..that smacks of the "Wookie effect". Do we change our ways out of fear that they "rip off arms when they loose?" Or do we do it because it's the right thing?

If we think that we are doing the right thing by allowing "crazy preacher" to burn some paper (as symbolic as that paper is) because its Constitutionaly protected...do we cave in and stop him because of the "Wookie effect"?

 

[Tez3]

Isn't this like saying "Christianity is a peaceful religion. But don't allow abortions because people will die." ?

Do we shut down abortion clinics because of the odd fundienut?

Many countries don't allow them and you've had cases in America where doctors have been murdered and clinics burnt down etc.

Do we "shut down" this nutty preacher and his Koran bonfire?

After he's burnt the Korans what does he intend to do next? Remember the Nazis started by burning books.

I don't think many people here are saying "right on preacher!!!" I'm just saying what do you suggest?

Send him out to Afghanistan as a missionary. I'll chip in for his fare.

 

[Archangel M]

Come on Tez..don't make me call Godwin on you. The guy is far from a Hitler character in this play. And you didn't answer the question...at least directly.

 

[Tez3]

Come on Tez..don't make me call Godwin on you. The guy is far from a Hitler character in this play. And you didn't answer the question...at least directly.

Are you so sure he's not like that? My grandparent's neighbour, they'd known each other for 50 years, they'd shared all sorts of things, he denounced them to the Nazis.

Damn right I'd send him to Afghanistan as a missionary, I was serious about that. He wants to make a protest he should make it to the people concerned, not in the safety of his back garden. He should have the courage of his convictions.

 

[Archangel M]

So our government should impress this man into service against his will? Thats your solution?

The point isnt if this guy is a Nazi..the outright Nazi's in the USA have Constitutional protections. Why not this guy?

 

[Cirdan]

"You are a savege child race, murdering each other in quarrels over tribal god images"

Unfortunately Q was right, and there is no end in sight either.

 

[Tez3]

So our government should impress this man into service against his will? Thats your solution?

The point isnt if this guy is a Nazi..the outright Nazi's in the USA have Constitutional protections. Why not this guy?

He won't need to be pressed, he would jump at the chance to go, give him his fare, a pile of Bibles and some money to rent a building for a church, he'll go willingly. If not he's a hypocrite.

I never said he was a Nazi as such, I said they started by burning books and ended by burning my grandparents among others, I was giving you a personal example of what things can lead to. Fanaticism is a canker thats eats and eats it's way through societies if we aren't vigilant.

Stand up and demonstrate when he tries to burn these books, don't shrug your shouldrs and say hey what can we do, every little thing helps. After all it might be your freedoms or rights his like could go for next.

 

[Archangel M]

I'd have no problem with counter protests. But I personally don't have the inclination nor desire to spend my time picketing every crackpot nut that wants to do something like this.

 

[Big Don]

He won't need to be pressed, he would jump at the chance to go, give him his fare, a pile of Bibles and some money to rent a building for a church, he'll go willingly. If not he's a hypocrite.

Sure he will, just like Arafat and Bin Laden strapped on a couple of explosive vests...

I never said he was a Nazi as such, I said they started by burning books and ended by burning my grandparents among others, I was giving you a personal example of what things can lead to.Fanaticism is a canker thats eats and eats it's way through societies if we aren't vigilant.

The answer, then, is protecting the fanatics from hearing and or seeing things that might make them flip?

Stand up and demonstrate when he tries to burn these books, don't shrug your shouldrs and say hey what can we do, every little thing helps. After all it might be your freedoms or rights his like could go for next.

Uh, as stated, just as the artist who made "Piss Christ" had the right to do so, so, does this jack *** have the right to his little bonfire...
The ones who want to force his silence, those are the ones who want to erode rights. There is no right not to be offended. (But, the sissies in governments the world over are working hard at it.) Oh, and the Organization of the Islamic Conference were pushing a UN Resolution...

 

[Tez3]

Ah but you have a comfortable life in America, I think that most of these arguments are academic for you, you haven't the experience most countries have in fascism, communism, dictators, wars, being bombed, (70th anniversdary of the Blitz this week), resistance etc. Easy for you to pass judgement on the rest of us when it's a academic for you.

Oh well would love to stay and chat but car and bags packed for time away in sunny Cornwall. Don't do all the controversial stuff while I'm away!

 

[Carol]

Have a good trip to Cornwall! :asian: