Various religions denounce Koran burning. No one showed.
- Thread starter Bill Mattocks
- Start date
Archangel M
Senior Master
Well then thats just crazy.
Wow. :barf:
Some question for some of you...
1) Is he an American?
2) Does he not have the right to do as he pleases?
3) Nobody and their momma's really cares, but the press has done a great job on letting people know about it
4)He has his views nomatter how screwed up they are
5) What is and will happen has already been put into place, so all we can do is sit back and see how far this will go
6) They started this mess and he is just trying to make his point one way or another.
I do not agree with it or do I condon such an act, but people have the right to be a stupid and dumb as they see fit here in America. It is called the American way of life, we never have to agree but we do have to listen for the most part. The Koran will never get burned by him because the American people will stand up and stop it, but wait is that not was suppose to happen in the 60's & 70's and the Vietnam war, we as a group of American wanted to burn the flag to protest the war and they all said it will never happen but it did and we recovered and went on to become a mighty country for it.
Bottom line he is a fool with no way of going any where and this is what he is doing to be remembered by all those folks that give him a minute of there time.
1) Is he an American?
2) Does he not have the right to do as he pleases?
3) Nobody and their momma's really cares, but the press has done a great job on letting people know about it
4)He has his views nomatter how screwed up they are
5) What is and will happen has already been put into place, so all we can do is sit back and see how far this will go
6) They started this mess and he is just trying to make his point one way or another.
I do not agree with it or do I condon such an act, but people have the right to be a stupid and dumb as they see fit here in America. It is called the American way of life, we never have to agree but we do have to listen for the most part. The Koran will never get burned by him because the American people will stand up and stop it, but wait is that not was suppose to happen in the 60's & 70's and the Vietnam war, we as a group of American wanted to burn the flag to protest the war and they all said it will never happen but it did and we recovered and went on to become a mighty country for it.
Bottom line he is a fool with no way of going any where and this is what he is doing to be remembered by all those folks that give him a minute of there time.
Archangel M
Senior Master
Would anybody have known or really cared (let alone become national news) what some insignificant hick pastor in the US did to a Koran if the media didn't MAKE a story out of it?
Why did THIS nut get attention? I'm pretty sure there have been numerous other nuts who have done similar things.
Plus the whole "Islam is a peaceful religion" BUT "don't burn the Koran because people are gonna die" thing seems contradictory. While I cant buy the idea that billions of people subscribed to it, one cant deny that the Salomn Rushdie and Muhammad Cartoon incidents illustrate a mindset different from the oddball X-tian Fundie who bombs an abortion clinic. There were street riots and religiously ordered assassinations.
Why did THIS nut get attention? I'm pretty sure there have been numerous other nuts who have done similar things.
Plus the whole "Islam is a peaceful religion" BUT "don't burn the Koran because people are gonna die" thing seems contradictory. While I cant buy the idea that billions of people subscribed to it, one cant deny that the Salomn Rushdie and Muhammad Cartoon incidents illustrate a mindset different from the oddball X-tian Fundie who bombs an abortion clinic. There were street riots and religiously ordered assassinations.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
I've seen a couple of Confederate flags on pickup trucks since I moved to the South (Florida) about a year ago. Nothing that matches the "magnificence" of this guy, but the attitudes are definitely there.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
I haven't seen anyone here, or in the media at large, suggest otherwise. We all know that. That shouldn't shield the stupid and dumb from criticism for their actions. Nor should it keep people from asking them not to.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
That point has been addressed multiple times in this thread. You could respond to those answers instead of pretending the question hasn't already been addressed.
Big Don
Sr. Grandmaster
OP
OP
To you, perhaps. Bees generally don't sting. Smacking a hive with a stick tends to produce a less salutary effect.
Yes, there were.
One might consider that the average Muslim-in-the-street in many Middle Eastern countries is essentially uneducated (as Empty Hands has described quite well), itinerant, and poor. His or her country is backwards, desolate, isolated, and lacking infrastructure as well as economic opportunity. He or she does not have regular access to news sources other than rumor, hearsay, and the information spread by religious leaders.
In other words, this is not unlike Europe of hundreds of years ago. When they go to school, it is frequently to learn only the Koran, which they memorized by rote, word by word, until they can recite the entire thing on demand. They are given explanations for what the words mean - and these explanations are largely dependent upon what the prevailing version of Islam happens to be.
For the most part, Islam concerned itself with Islam. The average guy had a menial job, an arranged marriage, kids, and a place to live. His main concerns were feeding his belly and that of his family, and keeping God's law as he understood it; whether that was hair length, beard length, keeping his head covered, keeping his wife covered up, etc. His concern was not the USA. He may be what many of us would consider an ignorant savage, but he certainly wasn't a threat to us. Just as peaceful as the next guy, no particular interest in nor hatred of 'the West' or the USA. Why would they? In basic terms, the USA doesn't intrude into their world, for most part. You might have a McDonalds in the city, but most of the Islamic world doesn't live in cities; they live in what we would call rural slums, devoid of even basic things like paved roads, running water, indoor plumbing, and electricity. You think these people lay awake at night thinking about blowing themselves up to kill some infidels? But they are prime fodder to be recruited. This is not their fault - and there's not much we can do about it. It is what it is. It's like a natural resource for terrorists.
This is a base that the religious right in the USA does not have access to. No matter how poor some families and communities are in the USA, their poverty doesn't hold a candle to that of the Middle East. Even the poor go to school, have access to information, and most importantly, do not grow up with one book and one religious philosophy as their only yardstick by which to measure everything. As much as some fundamentalist Christians consider it their life, it's nothing compared to people who memorized their holy book when they were just kids and could recite it backwards and forwards before they were old enough to shave.
Now, you take that base and you give them access to radicals, who preach hatred towards the USA. They tell these people that the USA is their enemy and intends to destroy their culture, defile their women, insult their religion, trample their sacred symbols. And then, for those who don't believe the radicals, they give them just enough access to outside media to show them a fundamentalist Christian burning a Koran. There it is, the proof, right in front of their eyes.
Think a few radicals might be recruited out of that miasma? I do.
Christians don't incite the same reaction because here in the West, we don't have the same isolated, ignorant base of citizens from which to draw. One can listen to the bible-thumping moron on TV or switch the channel and watch Maury Povich or Judge Judy.
Knowing that many Muslims who are not economically advantaged and not located in the West are tools and pawns to be used by our actual enemies, one would be wise (I would have thought) to not give the terrorists additional ammunition to use against us. We are reacting just exactly as they would like us to react. As I mentioned before, that's called being a tool.
Big Don
Sr. Grandmaster
You keep beating that drum, and never, once, admitting that Christians are, seemingly, required to put up with things that you, and others demand we insulate Muslims from, for our own safety.
OP
OP
Thanks, Don. I should have realized this earlier, but you've done a fine job of illustrating that we're not going to have a discussion. Have a good evening.
That is a positive thing really, Don.
Christianity is a more mature faith and one of the few good things about it is that the churches, in Europe at least, have gone through their vandalistic, trouble-making, 'teenage years' and can now be exposed to piquant criticism without the urge to burn everyone at the stake.
The societies it is within (except, possibly, America) would not stand for it if it did start to behave like the radical Muslim sects are.
Christianity is a more mature faith and one of the few good things about it is that the churches, in Europe at least, have gone through their vandalistic, trouble-making, 'teenage years' and can now be exposed to piquant criticism without the urge to burn everyone at the stake.
The societies it is within (except, possibly, America) would not stand for it if it did start to behave like the radical Muslim sects are.
OP
OP
That's quite right. What many of us who were raised in modern times do not seem to grasp is that we have a secular society; we were raised in it, we understand it. We do NOT understand what a religious society is; it's alien to us. While what Islam is now is roughly analogous to what Christianity was 500 years (or more) ago, we don't have a personal grasp of what it was like to live in a society that was not just composed of religious people, but was itself religious at its core.
One cannot blame Muslims for their societies or their religion as they are; they can no more help it than we could have during the Middle Ages. But we must understand what makes their society different from ours, and the pressures that move theirs as opposed to ours. One cannot approach a person from a culture that barters and doesn't have television and demand that he appreciate fine art and not care about whether or not his God is insulted. It won't happen; it's not in his world.
Moderate and modern Muslims who have become Westernized and adopted our values and our culture have even more to worry about. They are quite often considered the enemy by Islamists; and of course they would be, since they represent something that Islamists cannot tolerate; a Muslim who can thrive inside of a Western Democratic Republic that supports freedom of religion. If this can happen, then all that Islamists fear is a lie (and of course, it is a lie).
But at the same time, the moderate Muslim who lives in a Western nation and has adapted himself to a secular society is ALSO now being hated by that society that he has fitted himself to. He is not going to be accepted by the society he left behind - nor does he want to. But he is also not going to be accepted by the society he voluntarily made himself a part of. It is for these people I feel the most sympathy.
I took this photo last year at a VERY trendy mall here in the area.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wigwam/3066450039/
Tell me, do you think these ladies or their families are likely to blow up the society they have become a part of?
Mark Jordan
Blue Belt
[FONT="]I have no interest in attacking Islam or Muslims but as we accommodate the "Islamic minority" who, by the way, are already enjoying full equal rights, we neglect to see the plight of the Christian minorities in the Muslim world. These Christian minorities are in most cases the indigenous inhabitants of the land and not immigrants. Here in America, we are free to express our beliefs and opinions and we should stop bending our backs to Muslim or anyone.
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Marginal
Senior Master
Will Christians in the US burning books somehow aid the plight of these suffering Christians?
No? It'd probably just make their lives harder?
Well, then, we'd better burn them books!
Big Don
Sr. Grandmaster
Then wouldn't Muslims, of all sects, having to suck it up and take piquant criticism, also be a positive thing? Kindly explain why when it is good for Christians to take criticism, and, indeed, derision, it is NOT OK for Muslims to be subject to the same?
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Who said Islam and Muslims shouldn't be criticized? Intentional blasphemy is not criticism.
OP
OP
Christians are treated quite badly in many Muslim countries.
However, we do not observe civil liberties in this country on the basis on who does what to whom in other countries. Is that what you're suggesting? One who comes from a backwards nation which oppresses Christians ought not have their own religion respected here?
Try to remember that 'here in America' the 'we' you speak of includes the Muslims who were born here and have lived here for generations, blocks from what is now known as Ground Zero. They're as American as you - maybe more. But because of their faith, to you they are 'they' and not 'us'. They're us. You just don't care for that information.
I think that they should be mature enough to deal with criticism and derision of their faith, Don. But 'they', speaking of the faith in broad generic terms, are not yet at that stage. Maybe they will get there, maybe they wont.
Sad to say, what ever we think about it, I think there is a major conflagration coming and an awful lot of decent people are going to die for no good reason along with the hot-heads and downright evil twisters of doctrine.
Sad to say, what ever we think about it, I think there is a major conflagration coming and an awful lot of decent people are going to die for no good reason along with the hot-heads and downright evil twisters of doctrine.
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