Folding utility knife (boxcutter)

[arnisandyz]

Mr Phil, Do you prefer the Meyerco or the Superknife and why? I'm having a hard time deciding. The superknife is also available in a rubberized grip, so its between that one and the myerco. The assist opening would be nice, but not really necessary for my utility needs, especialy if it requires more matenience.

As a side note, how do you think LEO might react to someone carrying a folding "boxcutter" in post 9/11? I would guess before 9/11 they would see it as a tool stockboys might use, now I think they might see it as a 'terrorist" type weapon.

Thanks

Andy

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
As for range, the concept of the range of a given blade is very much overrated. In sparring with my teacher Dave, who always uses a reverse grip, I tried any number of tactics to increase my reach over his -- forward grip, longer training knife, etc. It didn't matter to him because he didn't much care what my relative reach was; he simply avoided, intercepted, or otherwise neutralized my attacks while getting in to carve me up.

There are at least two major strategies for knife-fighting--the defang the snake, long range, nickel-and-dime them to death approach, where reach matters and a reverse grip would not usually be favored, and the get-in-deep approach. The former looks to make small cuts on the hands and forearms (or any other target of opportunity), whereas the latter looks to get in and make seriously damaging strikes on the main body.

I think the length of the knife can matter at long range--if two people have equal armreaches, a two-inch difference in blade length can be put to advantage--but it's much less of an issue if one intends to go in deep.

It's also a matter of your model of knife fighting. Some people say even the smallest cut can end or at least determine the fight and so they play it like tag--almost like karate-style point-sparring--whereas others think that a person can take a number of little cuts and it may be a fair trade to take one on the forearm but give one to the liver. I know lots of people who spar for first blood only--no matter how minor the cut or its location--and again, a reach advantage (be it from the knife or just armlength) can surely help.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by arnisandyz
My post wasn't pointed directly at you, but to those people who think they have the answer to everything. I don't know you personally, but you are bringing up some good conversation.

I wasn't really refering to the amount of force used, but more the attitude that many have going in against person with a knife. Sorry for the miscommunication again.

No problem, I'm enjoying the conversation.

Originally posted by arnisandyz
Although you have trained against a knife (I don't know the extent of your training so I 'll assume it is as realistic as saftey permits) do you think you average blackbelt (trained MArtist) would react the same way as yourself?

I would have to say, the "average BB" I would not equate to my level of training, but then again, I have no idea how they train so I guess I can't really say that.

Originally posted by arnisandyz
I think if any "properly trained" MArtist came to a point to where they HAD to do somthing the size or type of weapon won't really matter. For example...to use your street situation - a guy pulls a boxcutter on you and your wife and newborn baby - you can't run and leave your family behind - you see he only has a boxcutter so you stand and fight. If he had a butcher knife would the situation be any different? It might look more intimidating, but i think you'll still defend your family if needed.

Not neccesarily a different situation, but different strategy and techniques. Someone once said that the person holding the weapon, whatever it may be, is the one at the disadvantage, does no one believe that way ?

7sm

 

[Blindside]

Not neccesarily a different situation, but different strategy and techniques. Someone once said that the person holding the weapon, whatever it may be, is the one at the disadvantage, does no one believe that way ?

Not me, weapons are tools that make humans more efficient at killing/maiming. If not, wars would be fought unarmed and that hasn't ever happened.

Lamont

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Blindside
Not me, weapons are tools that make humans more efficient at killing/maiming. If not, wars would be fought unarmed and that hasn't ever happened.

Lamont

Well, we don't fight wars with boxcutters either. I'm talking about pure, street self-defense.

7sm

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
Not neccesarily a different situation, but different strategy and techniques. Someone once said that the person holding the weapon, whatever it may be, is the one at the disadvantage, does no one believe that way ?

7sm

No, I do not believe the person holding the weapon is at a disadvantage, as long as that person knows about the weapon.

If the person is holding the barrel of a gun or the blade of a knife and it is not a being readied to be thrown, then you might say the person holding the weapon is at a disadvantage.

On average the drunk jock wanna be with the aluminum softball bat, may not be the most dangerous person you run across. They could be, yet on average they most likely are not.

You asked about the box cutter in the alley between you and your significant other. For me this would be hard to imagine, as a whole bunch of mistake would ahve to have been made to get the bad guy between me and the person I am trying to protect. Yes, the mistakes couls have been made by one or both. So, ok the mistakes were made. I would respect the box cutter for its capabilities and try to see what the guy wanted. Money NP, here is my wallet. Keys, here they are, no big deal. My life or that of someone I care about, then things are different.

As some people wish to have a tactics forum, this tactic could be discussed there also. Have you ever been in the point position, knowing it was not your job to survive, but to cause as much chaos and havoc in the ranks of the opponents to let the others have the best chance to get to cover or survive the encounter? Not may can do this in a cold and calculating way. Most who get there are just trying to save someone and are not thinking about their ownself.

So, if I had to get him to let go of the one I cared about, I would approach and tell him that anyone could kill a helpless person. A real man would take that blade and take me on, and in the end breath in my last breath. Are willing to try that? I have tried this before and it worked since I am still here. I have tried it when the person had a gun and I was trying to make a point that any fool could pull a trigger, yet a real man would do it with his bare hands or a blade. I played a psych game with them. Knowing I had no chance of retreat and was responsible for the safety of people around me. Yet, I respect the weapon for its attributes. Firearms, easy to fire and range. Blade, more range then empty hands and cutting and stabbing damage. And if empty hands, I assume he has or is trying for a weapon, because I am. I rock on the ground, somethign I pcik up, My belt, etc, ..., . It all depends upon the situation and the time involved.

Yet, I never fell like the guy with the weapon is at a disadvantage. Unless it is just so outrageous it does not make sense like I mentioned grasping the blade or trying to life an eight foot telephone poll, etc, ..., . Yet these are not the weapons I usually had seen.

Just my opinion though, you can act and beleive as you think best and have your own opinion. I am not always right, nor do I pretend to be.

Enjoy the Holidays and be safe
:asian:

 

[Phil Elmore]

Regarding range, that's a valid point, but it hinges on whether you believe range can be dictated and maintained in a "knife fight."

Mr Phil, Do you prefer the Meyerco or the Superknife and why? I'm having a hard time deciding. The superknife is also available in a rubberized grip, so its between that one and the myerco. The assist opening would be nice, but not really necessary for my utility needs, especialy if it requires more matenience.

I actually prefer the Meyerco because I find the handle more ergonomic. The whole thing is larger, which makes a difference -- the Super Knife is nice but just feels too small (and the handle material is a little slippery).

As a side note, how do you think LEO might react to someone carrying a folding "boxcutter" in post 9/11? I would guess before 9/11 they would see it as a tool stockboys might use, now I think they might see it as a 'terrorist" type weapon.

I think you will raise more eyebrows with a boxcutter "knife" than with a standard utility knife. In some places, carrying a boxcutter is even explicitly illegal (primarily because, prior to 9/11, small disposable boxcutters had already become popular with teenage miscreants).

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
Regarding range, that's a valid point, but it hinges on whether you believe range can be dictated and maintained in a "knife fight."

It matters most when both people want to stay outside and play defang the snake. I see this happen in sparring often. Again, it depends on the "rules"--if a single hit, anywhere, ends it, then staying outside makes a lot of sense.

Of course, this knife dueling is not a likely street scenario for most of us.

 

[arnisandyz]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

I would have to say, the "average BB" I would not equate to my level of training, but then again, I have no idea how they train so I guess I can't really say that.

So it would be safe to say, since you are confident that you trained for such a situation, you are comfortable in your own skill and mindset that YOU could handle the situation. You just mentioned that you have no idea how other martial artists "train" so you can't really say this... "I just think a boxcutter type weapon is not one that would stop a trained MAist if they were forced to defend against it."
I happen to know many mcDojos that "train" for knife defense, that would really get someone killed if they tried some of what was taught. It really depends on the training, physical and mental.


Someone once said that the person holding the weapon, whatever it may be, is the one at the disadvantage, does no one believe that way ?

I would guess most people that come from the FMA systems have a general rule that "something is better than nothing". If someone has a knife I'd be more comfortable with a weapon, carried or improvised, Pick up a pipe or a rock, a belt, pencil, anything you have quick access too, if you have time. Empty hands fighting is a last resort if you loose your own weapon! I'm not saying FMA emptyhands is weak, its just a general philosophy of most weapon arts.

 

[arnisandyz]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
Someone once said that the person holding the weapon, whatever it may be, is the one at the disadvantage, does no one believe that way ?

Another note on weapons. I know KungFu relates many systems to animal movement so heres an analogy.

If 2 street cats are fighting, would you thing the cat that has all of its claws or the cat that has been declawed would win and why?

Cockfighting (although I don't agree with it) Would your bet be on the rooster with blades on its feet or the one without?

Would a great white shark be known as a "killing machine" if it had no teeth?

 

[arnisador]

The "weapon as disadvantage" refers, I presume, to the idea that a person holding a weapon can be so focused on that weapon that they forget their other options.

But, a skilled knifer will be using both hands, let alone other parts of their bodies. I wouldn't count on benefiting from the "fact" that the attack must come from the knife and hence is limited and predictable.

Of course, a skilled knifer may well have more than one knife...you may be defending against the right hand quite successfully, only to find...

 

[arnisandyz]

Originally posted by arnisador
The "weapon as disadvantage" refers, I presume, to the idea that a person holding a weapon can be so focused on that weapon that they forget their other options.

Agreed, it can also come from an idealistic spiritual viewpoint. The disadvantage being the person needs to rely on a weapon to compensate for some shortcoming, mental or physical while the confident weaponless warrior does not need any external "crutch" relying on the power within as the weapon.

I'll take a nice stick or a good knife anyday!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by arnisandyz

Originally posted by arnisador
The "weapon as disadvantage" refers, I presume, to the idea that a person holding a weapon can be so focused on that weapon that they forget their other options.

Agreed, it can also come from an idealistic spiritual viewpoint. The disadvantage being the person needs to rely on a weapon to compensate for some shortcoming, mental or physical while the confident weaponless warrior does not need any external "crutch" relying on the power within as the weapon.

I'll take a nice stick or a good knife anyday!

Andy,

Iagree . I might be compensating for something, and I will go talk about it with my psycologist, yet that will be after the incident, and I would prefer to be there with a stick or a blade or some other improvised weapon. Yet, this is me and the way I approach things.

:asian:

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by arnisandyz
Agreed, it can also come from an idealistic spiritual viewpoint. The disadvantage being the person needs to rely on a weapon to compensate for some shortcoming, mental or physical while the confident weaponless warrior does not need any external "crutch" relying on the power within as the weapon.

I wasn't going there with it, Bruce Lee is the one who said it, and I have to agree. Why produce a weapon in a fight if your not goign to use it? So your focus is on using that weapon. Now, it can be trained out of you to a degree, but we are talking about an average joe with maybe a year or so of training. Even if you think its not, your holding that weapon in order to use it, and you will tend to force a technique with your weapon without even thinking about it.

Originally posted by arnisandyz
If 2 street cats are fighting, would you thing the cat that has all of its claws or the cat that has been declawed would win and why?
B]

But we are talking about humans who can learn and train, not instinct.

Originally posted by arnisandyz
I happen to know many mcDojos that "train" for knife defense, that would really get someone killed if they tried some of what was taught. It really depends on the training, physical and mental.

Very very true, I completely agree. I just feel more free without a weapon, I prefer none. Even against a weapon. Now there are situations where this doesn't hold true, a gun for example is a weapon not included, and other may apply, but generally speaking, I prefer no weapon, but that stems from my intense open hand training probably.

7sm

 

[Phil Elmore]

Trying to think yourself into the idea that the guy with the weapon is at a disadvantage facing the guy without is wishful thinking. It may help "psych you up" to face the weapon, but there's no reasonable person in the world who wouldn't trade places with an armed opponent if given the choice.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
Trying to think yourself into the idea that the guy with the weapon is at a disadvantage facing the guy without is wishful thinking. It may help "psych you up" to face the weapon, but there's no reasonable person in the world who wouldn't trade places with an armed opponent if given the choice.

Bruce Lee is not considered a reasonable person?

I'm not thinking myself into any belief, and am in no way trying to "psych" myself up. I know firsthand the dangers of defending against a knife. Maybe thats why I train so hard against that situation. I have the medical records and scars to show for the experience I am speaking from. I never in my life want to defend against another knife, but I'm not naive enough to believe I have that choice completely by myself. I'm not saying I want to fight an armed assailent, but I also don't want to fight an unarmed one. I do feel confident enough in my open hand skill that I would not want a weapon. Your looking at what I'm saying backwards...I'm not saying I want to fight an armed person, but that I want to fight unarmed.

7sm

 

[lhommedieu]

7sm,

I’m curious about the kinds of weapons that you’ve learned in the systems that you are studying. A cursory look at Seven Star Praying Mantis Kung Fu, Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan, and Wah Lum Preying Mantis Kung Fu (on your profile) at various sites on the web shows that a wide variety of single and double weapons are taught in these systems, including (to name just a few):

dagger
broadsword
long sword
axe
halberd
spear
staff

It would take a rare level of skill to choose not to use these weapons in a fight when the opportunity to use them was present.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by lhommedieu

dagger
broadsword
long sword
axe
halberd
spear
staff

It would take a rare level of skill to choose not to use these weapons in a fight when the opportunity to use them was present.

Best,

Steve Lamade

Those are all weapons we use, including some traditional ones like the Monk Spade and such. However, as much training as we do in weapons, especially edged weapons, I do at the very least twice as much training in empty hand. Weapons are alot of fun, and are hard to train in and require lots of skill, however I feel more comfortable with no weapon. I feel almost constricted with a weapon in hand, regardless if its against an armed or unarmed opponant.

7sm

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
Those are all weapons we use, including some traditional ones like the Monk Spade and such. However, as much training as we do in weapons, especially edged weapons, I do at the very least twice as much training in empty hand. Weapons are alot of fun, and are hard to train in and require lots of skill, however I feel more comfortable with no weapon. I feel almost constricted with a weapon in hand, regardless if its against an armed or unarmed opponant.

7sm

Yes, Weapons are hard to training.

Yet, one of the worst stabbings I witnesses was a total non-trained person against someone bigger and with an ax-handle. Teh guy with the knife just punched and cut the rib cage as the blade went by. The ax handle guy trapped the arm with the blade, and the blade guy just tried to pull his arm and hand free. Mean while he was stabbing and cutting the guy to shreads. The blad entered the rib cage and cut lung and nicked his heart, as well as just ugly damage. The Ax handle guy stepped back, not knowing he was cut, and patted his stomache and said,"You did nto even touch me or cut. See no Blood" All of us were just starring, including the knife guy who could not believe what he had done. One of the friends of the ax handle guy yelled at him to check under his arm. He saw the blood and started walking to a car. he Said, "I think we should go to the hospital now." All of this with a fixed blade weapon that had entered his body numerous times, punctured his lung and touched his heart. The guy lived, spent 6 weeks in the hospital, and we all spent time in court arguing about who did what and why.

My point is that I have seen novices, grab a blade out of sheer terror and cause damage. If you do not respect the blade or weapon for its attributes, then you will find out the hard way.

Just My Opinion, and Experience.
:asian:

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
My point is that I have seen novices, grab a blade out of sheer terror and cause damage. If you do not respect the blade or weapon for its attributes, then you will find out the hard way.

Just My Opinion, and Experience.
:asian:

That is a very good point, and I have learned about edged weapons the hard way. I was jumped by a guy with a knife, I didn't know he had. It was one of those situations that you try to walk away from and he wont let you. Needless to say I still have some nasty scars from that evening. I know from experience what they can do. I'm not saying you should grab the blade, there are a myriad of techniques available to an unarmed person against an armed, as well as a myriad available to an armed person. I think not fighting a person with any weapon is a good idea, but sometimes that's not possible. As a paramedic, I've seen 6 inch blades sever ribs and lungs. I'm not saying don't respect them, I'm not even saying I don't respect them, I'm simply saying I don't feel I need to use one.
People are taking that as a cocky statement of my intense skill level, and that is the farthest from what I'm saying, I'm just saying that having a knife doesn't make you any more skilled while attacking someone. Everyone seems to assume that if they have a knife they are going to win, I'm saying that is not always the case, trust me, I've seen it, I've done it.

7sm