Folding utility knife (boxcutter)

[Cruentus]

O.K., I am going to attempt to convey my opinions without being rude or insulting, but without sacrificing honesty. So bear with me.


Here are some of your statements:

"I know the one plane did "revolt" but I just dont see anyone doing any amount of damage to me with one of those before I've broken a knee or two, am I being optomistic? I don't think so."

"My point is that even if you cut me three times with it in the process, I still would have shattered a knee and crushed a windpipe. I just dont see it being a weapon of choice."

"I would have to say, the "average BB" I would not equate to my level of training, but then again, I have no idea how they train so I guess I can't really say that."

"I just feel more free without a weapon, I prefer none. Even against a weapon. Now there are situations where this doesn't hold true, a gun for example is a weapon not included, and other may apply, but generally speaking, I prefer no weapon, but that stems from my intense open hand training probably."


These statements that you have been making sound like they are coming from someone who has NEVER had to defend themselves in real life, or from someone who is, at best, very ignorant of blade encounters, and/or self defense encounters all together. If this is true, then your followup statements about you being attacked with a knife, and so forth, would all be lies.

Now...I am not saying "Your a liar" and I am not saying "Your Ignorant." I don't know you, so I don't know the truth. But, I am telling you how it sounds to me. What you say make you very hard to believe to me.

Now, all I have to say is that it is too bad that your way down there in Texas, and I am way up here in Michigan, or we could solve this arguement very quickly.

I have said this before in othet threads, but I have a sort of "open challange" going here for anyone who is very confident with they're empty hand vs. knife skills. Basically, you try to take MY knife away, and I try to attack and kill you. I give my personal garuntee that more times then not you will be cut several times and fatally...and I don't care who you are or what you've trained in. Now...I am not being a jerk and putting forth an "empty challange." I would of course use a training blade, and I would be careful not to poke or strike in a way that would hurt or injure my challanger. I would also expect that if they are skilled enough to take away my blade, that they wouldn't "crush my throat or break my knees" in the process. It would be a friendly "training challange" but one that I would surely like you to be able to take me up on sometime.

For you, though, I would take the challange even further. You don't have to even disarm my knife. If you could pull of 3 good strikes to my head area, groin area, or knees before I can cut you fatally, then I would be impressed. I would wear a cup, knee pads, and a mouth guard, and you would have foot and hand pads. Again, not an empty challange, but a real challange that could be actually duplicated without risk of injury or law suit.

But for you, I would be happy to TAKE THE CHALLANGE EVEN FURTHER. Since it is said that I have considerable training with the knife, its almost not fair to do the challange with me. So, I would propose that we could even do it with a determined attacker with little or no martial arts experience. We would have to find someone we agreed on, of course. Now, since we agree that the Hijackers had some training, I would bet that I could train the average joe for 15 minutes with a knife, and that average joe could kill most trained martial artists. So, this average joe would get 15 minutes of training with me, and then they would do the challange with you. I'll bet that you get cut quite a few times, fatelly, even with the untrained attacker.

Anyways...its too bad that we are so far away, because if we were closer, I would want to do this today. If you are ever up in Michigan, or I am in Texas, I want to do this challange. We can notify each other by PM. The challange is open to anyone, really, but I specifically would like YOU to take me up on the offer.

Since I doubt that this will be a reality, I have to say that until its proven to me different, I have serious doubts about what you say.

With respect,

Paul Janulis

 

[angrywhitepajamas]

I don't know about you guys but I'm more wary of people who do not have any knife training. You don't know what they are going to do and if they are scared, they don't know what they are going to do either. they just react.

In addition what type of training woulf you guys recomend for a beginner in cabales escrima.


And If I may ask, Arinisador , where did you come by the information on the deceased flight atendents??

 

[Cruentus]

Whoops...I made a mistake with a wrong post...sorry.

 

[lhommedieu]

There are numerous accounts and time-lines to be found on the web that detail the events of 9/11. I can't vouch for their authenticity, but I suppose you could look up the newspaper and t.v. news sources cited. Here's one (I starred out the names out of respect for the individuals involved):

(8:21 a.m.) Another Flight 11 attendant, ********, calls American Airlines ground manager ********** and speaks calmly to him for 25 minutes until the plane crashes. Supposedly the call is not recorded but ********** took notes. [ABC News, 7/18/02] However, the Boston Globe says it has a transcript of the call. [Boston Globe, 11/23/01] Her first comment is, "Listen, and listen to me very carefully. I'm on Flight 11. The airplane has been hijacked." She identifies four hijackers (not the five said to be on the plane) and gives the seat numbers for them. Even before the plane crashes, staff are able to determine the names, phone numbers, addresses, and credit card information for these four hijackers, including Mohamed Atta and Abdulaziz Alomari. She reports that two flight attendants have been stabbed and a passenger has had his throat slashed (my emphasis). She says the hijackers seem to be of Middle Eastern descent. ["Over the next 25 minutes," ABC News, 7/18/02, AP, 10/5/01]

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by angrywhitepajamas
I don't know about you guys but I'm more wary of people who do not have any knife training.

I sometimes feel that way about empty-hand, but not the knife. Give me someone who basically punches with it!

And If I may ask, Arinisador , where did you come by the information on the deceased flight atendents??

Thanks lhommedieu for your post addressing this issue, as O was going from memory!

 

[arnisador]

I understand 7starmantis's psoition. He's going to fight with what he knows. He may well be better off with his familiar empty hands than with an unfamiliar weapon. how often do we say, Don't use a weapon you don't know?

I'm reminded of a story of Angel Cabales (I think--I read this in a book at Renegade's school). He was to fight someone (or possibly a pair of opponents) who used two sticks. He had the opportunity to use two sticks himself but said No, I have to use what I have trained with, what I know--the single stick. He won. I think one can find similar stories related to Miyamoto Musashi.

So, for him, if he was faced with a knife fighter, he might be best off not using a knife himself. PAUL, if you were being attacked by a knight wielding a mace, is it clear that you'd be better off using a mace yourself despite a lack of experience with it, or going in empty-hand against it? I might favour the latter, frankly.

It's a common refrain from those of us in the FMA and Indonesian martial arts that others don't understand how deadly the blade can be. On the other hand, look at how many people here--myself included--have lived to tell of being attacked by a knife-wileding thug. They're not all experts out on the street (which is the anticipated threat).

The problem is when those in traditional martial arts can't see that the blade can be used in a waythat is not merely an extension of the thrusts and chops they already know.

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6346

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by PAUL
These statements that you have been making sound like they are coming from someone who has NEVER had to defend themselves in real life, or from someone who is, at best, very ignorant of blade encounters, and/or self defense encounters all together. If this is true, then your followup statements about you being attacked with a knife, and so forth, would all be lies.

Now...I am not saying "Your a liar" and I am not saying "Your Ignorant." I don't know you, so I don't know the truth. But, I am telling you how it sounds to me. What you say make you very hard to believe to me.

I'm sorry you find it hard to believe me, I'm trying to understand and have good conversation being as honest as I can. If my confidence in my empty hand skills makes you not believe me, then I say be careful of your comments that would make me doubt your knife skills such as....

"you try to take MY knife away, and I try to attack and kill you."

"you will be cut several times and fatally...and I don't care who you are or what you've trained in."

These are statements that equate to mine. I believe that you truly feel you are that good or skilled, but it does make me doubt the truthfullness of that.

Originally posted by PAUL
Now, all I have to say is that it is too bad that your way down there in Texas, and I am way up here in Michigan, or we could solve this arguement very quickly.

But for you, I would be happy to TAKE THE CHALLANGE EVEN FURTHER...

It sure does sound to me Paul, that you are trying to be a jerk, but thats cool. I'm not on this board personally challenging anyone, I'm just expressing my concerns and beliefs about martial arts. If you are ever in Texas, I would be happy to take you up for a friendly challenge, however either way it turned out would not change the fact that I would prefer no weapon in a fight.

Originally posted by PAUL
Since I doubt that this will be a reality, I have to say that until its proven to me different, I have serious doubts about what you say.

Thats ok Paul, you write me off because it makes you more comfortable. I don't present myself as better than anyone on this forum, but you seem to feel differently. I'm simply stating my beliefs. You have stated yours and I could say the exact same thing to you, but I understand that you are confident in your training, as well you should be, and that doesn't mean you are a complete liar, but maybe just a martial artist.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by arnisador
It's a common refrain from those of us in the FMA and Indonesian martial arts that others don't understand how deadly the blade can be. On the other hand, look at how many people here--myself included--have lived to tell of being attacked by a knife-wileding thug. They're not all experts out on the street (which is the anticipated threat).

I seem to be seeing this here, I don't mean to be "disrespecting" the knife, I understand its dangers, as well I do the Sum Gi Cuan (three-sectional staff), however, I don't really want to fight with one. I've seen what a knife can do firsthand as a paramedic, and myself in the encounter I had, I respect it, but I feel comfortable without one.

Again let me say, people seem to be taking what I'm saying backwards...I'm simply saying I don't want to use one in a fight, not that I would prefer to fight someone with a knife and myself be unarmed. Whether my opponent is armed or unarmed, I prefer to be unarmed.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

I started a new thread about this, because I felt we were getting off topic here.

See: New Thread

7sm

 

[Rich Parsons]

7StarMantis,

Let us make a few assumptions here.

First, you are well trained and fell more than comfortable handling a knife.

Second, you choose not to approach or defend yourself with a make shift weapon.

Third, I am not being presumptuous or condenscending or insulting with my assumptions.

You are trained professional, and you are also a trained Martial Artist. You may and have done techniques and stuff in general that the person off the street would not be able to do nor feel comfortable to do.

It is fine for you to personally believe that you can handle a knife or boxcutter and to train for it.

The only issue(s) I have had were the way you said certain things in the written word here. As has been written before, you cannot see smile , inflection of body language here. You as a trained preofessional and trained martial artist may choose to think or react or act in a certain way. Thsoe who train with the knife a lot feel it is important to let people know that the knife is dangerous. I know you and everyone else is going DUH! it has an edge. Yet, many people only train against the knife in a static format with over committed punch/thrust strikes. The Novices out there will think they can ignore the dangers of the knife.

Now for example, you might be able to kick a knee or to trap a punch or hit a face, quite easily, when the techniques are done in singles. Yet when the first time you spar, it becomes much more difficult and your timing is all off, and you get hit and or miss the opponent. Just as the trained boxer, martial artist, etc, ..., has their fakes and jabs, so does knife fighting. The big difference is that with impact weapons you can take the trauma, and still react, where with edged weapons, you make be in risk of bleeding out. Yes, I know you personally are trained to avoid being cut in vital areas. The average joe on the street is not.

The next time you spar someone, do not tell the person you are sparring, that you imagine that there are blades attached to there hands and feet. And that every time you are touched, you will be bleeding from that spot. Remember where you were touched, and see what it reveals to just yourself.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I'm sorry you find it hard to believe me, I'm trying to understand and have good conversation being as honest as I can. If my confidence in my empty hand skills makes you not believe me, then I say be careful of your comments that would make me doubt your knife skills such as....

"you try to take MY knife away, and I try to attack and kill you."

"you will be cut several times and fatally...and I don't care who you are or what you've trained in."

These are statements that equate to mine. I believe that you truly feel you are that good or skilled, but it does make me doubt the truthfullness of that.



It sure does sound to me Paul, that you are trying to be a jerk, but thats cool. I'm not on this board personally challenging anyone, I'm just expressing my concerns and beliefs about martial arts. If you are ever in Texas, I would be happy to take you up for a friendly challenge, however either way it turned out would not change the fact that I would prefer no weapon in a fight.


Thats ok Paul, you write me off because it makes you more comfortable. I don't present myself as better than anyone on this forum, but you seem to feel differently. I'm simply stating my beliefs. You have stated yours and I could say the exact same thing to you, but I understand that you are confident in your training, as well you should be, and that doesn't mean you are a complete liar, but maybe just a martial artist.

7sm

Couple of things (and I'll keep it short).

My "wrong post" was because I wrote something else that belonged in another forum, and I couldn't delete my post. I ment everything I said in my reply to you.

I am not trying to be a jerk, nor trying to show false confidence in my skills. I am just saying that it seems to me that you might not understand the dynamics of a blade. An untrained person doesn't have to have "superhuman skills" to cut you. He basically has to touch you with the blade and you are cut. It's that simple for him. You however have to prevent him from touching you; much more difficult. If someone is simply not overextending their strikes, and slicing wildly in all directions (with no skill) you will have a hard time dealing with it, no matter what your training is. And, with every little touch and cut, you are losing your capability to fight. And...it happends faster then you think. Read my first response...that is an accurate discription of what could happend to any trained person against a barely trained knife fighter.

Now...are knife fighters invincable...no. No one is. But the responses I got for you is "I'd just break his knees and colapse his throat, even if I have to take a few cuts"; a "its no big deal, I'm so confident in skilled" type of a response. Every time I have heard this before, its all been bulls***.

If you prefer to not use a knife...fine, I can respect that. But, I find your comment to be overconfident and niave sounding.

PAUL

 

[arnisador]

Weren't you the same before being exposed to FMA? I know I was. "I know Karate, I can handle a guy with a knife--No Problem!" I didn't know what I didn't know.

It's more different than people think.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by arnisador
Thanks, I ordered one!

It arrived yesterday. I got the rubberized handle version from www.superknife.com. As I had ordered it on the evening of 23 Dec., this was fast service!

It seems like a handy little knife. I can definitely see its attractiveness as a work knife.

The handle is a bit smaller than I'd like. It opens easily with a snap of the wrist, but with two-handed openings I find it a little bit touchy about locking into place--when I open it two-handed, or one-handed with the thumb stud, I often have to give an extra push to get it to "click" into a locked position. This hasn't been an issue when I simply snap it open, save for the first time I did it. Perhaps it's mostly a matter of me adjusting to the knife, but other folders of a similar design don't seem to fail to lock nearly as often for me.

For the price--$22.50 plus $5 S&H, including a (velcro) belt sheath and refill blades--I'm happy with it.

 

[arnisandyz]

Originally posted by arnisador
It arrived yesterday. I got the rubberized handle version from www.superknife.com

Thanks for the review! I agree, for the price it would be a great little work knife to keep handy. I'll probably buy a bunch as gifts for my uncles, cousins etc. too bad I found out about it to late for this Christmas.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by arnisador
Weren't you the same before being exposed to FMA? I know I was. "I know Karate, I can handle a guy with a knife--No Problem!" I didn't know what I didn't know.

It's more different than people think.

It is, but I have been exposed to it very much, from being attacked, and seriously cut...to training with the knife.
I do understand the dynamics of it.

7sm

 

[Makalakumu]

"I knife that is going to kill you is a knife that you won't see." These are my instructor's words. He also says, "if a person pulls a knife on you and asks for your wallet, give it too him. If he asks you to go with him, fight."

I trained in Japanese Martial arts for 9 years before I switch to my current instructor in TSD/arnis (my instructor is a 4th dan in TSD and a Mastro in Arnis). The knife work we did in karate was horse sh... The moment I walked into an arnis class and put some red paint on a foam knife, I learned the truth. It took about three seconds.

Anyway, we did an experiment at a knife seminar once. My instructor picked six men out of a crowd of beginners. Three he trained for 30 minutes in the use of a knife and three he put out into the hall. Then he put them all against empty handed black belts.

Untrained had a 20 percent kill rate. Trained had 50 percent. One half hour of training in the knife is all it took to even the odds against a guy with a minimum of 5 years.

Consequently, if I am faced with a knife, I'm going to be using foot jutsu if I can. Am I a coward or am I prudent?

 

[arnisador]

It's amazing how little training it takes to make someone very dangerous (as opposed to merely dangerous) with the knife. I've had a simialr experience--one lesson gives them lots of the ideas.

For some, that lesson comes while in prison!

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by arnisador
Weren't you the same before being exposed to FMA? I know I was. "I know Karate, I can handle a guy with a knife--No Problem!" I didn't know what I didn't know.

It's more different than people think.

lol....I was exposed to FMA in 1990....and I was born in 1978. I didn't know what I didn't know mainly because I was too young to know anything anyways!

 

[arnisador]

You know, I knew that about you but had forgotten!

Well, the point is that it's more different than people realize.

 

[Phil Elmore]

"Martial" artists who harbor irrational fear of weapons are deluding themselves. There can be no self-defense in an environment built on the evasion of reality.