What about them? If they saw the entire thing, ok, I'd say they were credible. Now, if they were like most witnesses who record things after the incident is playing out, well, thats not credible to me, IMHO. Did someone look out and see the kid on top of Zimmerman? If so, is that all they saw? Did they see him following the kid, hear anything that was said, etc.? IMO, those things are key and make play a huge role in this case.
Unarmed Florida Teen Shot
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
What about them? If they saw the entire thing, ok, I'd say they were credible. Now, if they were like most witnesses who record things after the incident is playing out, well, thats not credible to me, IMHO. Did someone look out and see the kid on top of Zimmerman? If so, is that all they saw? Did they see him following the kid, hear anything that was said, etc.? IMO, those things are key and make play a huge role in this case.
the witness said he saw one guy on the ground, the other guy on top punching the guy on the ground. The guy on the ground yelled to the witness for help, but the witness just locked his patio door, and called 911 as he moved to an upstairs window. As he was going to the window, he heard the gunshot and said that the guy who was punching the other guy was the one who was shot.
Why do you want the dead lad to be the guilty one and the one who shot him innocent so much?
One thing we know is that the sun set at 1744, EST, on Feb 26, 2012.
Zimmerman's 911 call took place at 1900, EST.
Who can say what witnesses "saw" at what would have been near full-dark? Zimmerman claims he didn't get out of the vehicle to follow Trayvon Martin, but to "check which street he was on," which is pretty interesting, given that it was his neighborhood-but was apparently believable to the police, given it was near full-dark?
And so, on. Witnesses that said the boy was the one calling for help state that they were told by the police that, no, it was Zimmerman crying for help, and have fought to have their altered statements changed to reflect what they actually said.
Intrerstingly, the "stand your ground" law keeps coming up, but no one seems to be paying much attention to Trayvon Martin's ground: the boy was in a neighborhood where he belonged, minding his own business-taking his time and talking on a cell phone. Wearing a hoodie because it was 65 and raining, probably, or maybe, like a lot of 17 year olds, because he just liked to wear the same damn **** all the time. He's followed-and maybe confronted-by a strange man-what's he supposed to do, besides run-or fight? If it doesn't matter that Zimmerman is or isn't a racist to have to defend himself, it certainly doesn't matter that the worst thing that Trayvon Martin appears to have done is walk down the street with his head in the clouds-and maybe get suspended from school at one time or another.
Most tellingly, I've seen a lot of sympathy for the boy's parents, and the boy himself, from a variety of quarters: liberal and white, conservative and black, but pure out hate-filled nutbags like Glenn Beck report that "maybe Trayvon was suspended from school for rape" on their webpage. The people who are defending Zimmerman-often by "questioning" or condeming Trayvon Martin? White, conservative men- of a type who ought to be ashamed of themselves, but their behavior continues to show that they have no shame, no goddam shame at all.
In the end, this will all turn out however it's going to: George Zimmerman (whose only photo appears to be a booking photo from that assault on a police officer) will be convicted and/or sued-or he'll get away with it, as it appears the PD wanted. The transgressions of the Sanford police department-real, imagined, past, near past and present-will be brought to light, or buried by the next chief of police, and a 17 year old boy who was only guilty of being a black kid on the sidewalk on a late winter evening, will be just as dead.
Yesterday was my son's birthday. We had a nice, small celebration-just the two of us, late in what was a beautiful spring day in Albuquerque, and I asked him about this case-he said he didn't want to talk about it, that it was just the same story: Florida, and black, and cops in Florida-I have my own "cops in Florida" story that's familiar to some of you, but that was 32 years ago, and I got to go home alive. Interestingly, my son easily looks "white" to most people, and Zimmerman probably wouldn't have thought twice about him "looking up to no good." There, I said it-some people report the guy actually went door to door telling his neighbors to be on the lookout for "black kids who look like their up to no good," when, in fact, there are black kids who live there-they may even be the ones that really are "up to no good," or responsible for the neigborhood's crimes, but that doesn't excuse Zimmerman's behavior, and I think further investigation is going to prove that it really doesn't excuse the PD's behavior.
Why are there so few black conservatives like me?
Zimmerman's 911 call took place at 1900, EST.
Who can say what witnesses "saw" at what would have been near full-dark? Zimmerman claims he didn't get out of the vehicle to follow Trayvon Martin, but to "check which street he was on," which is pretty interesting, given that it was his neighborhood-but was apparently believable to the police, given it was near full-dark?
And so, on. Witnesses that said the boy was the one calling for help state that they were told by the police that, no, it was Zimmerman crying for help, and have fought to have their altered statements changed to reflect what they actually said.
Intrerstingly, the "stand your ground" law keeps coming up, but no one seems to be paying much attention to Trayvon Martin's ground: the boy was in a neighborhood where he belonged, minding his own business-taking his time and talking on a cell phone. Wearing a hoodie because it was 65 and raining, probably, or maybe, like a lot of 17 year olds, because he just liked to wear the same damn **** all the time. He's followed-and maybe confronted-by a strange man-what's he supposed to do, besides run-or fight? If it doesn't matter that Zimmerman is or isn't a racist to have to defend himself, it certainly doesn't matter that the worst thing that Trayvon Martin appears to have done is walk down the street with his head in the clouds-and maybe get suspended from school at one time or another.
Most tellingly, I've seen a lot of sympathy for the boy's parents, and the boy himself, from a variety of quarters: liberal and white, conservative and black, but pure out hate-filled nutbags like Glenn Beck report that "maybe Trayvon was suspended from school for rape" on their webpage. The people who are defending Zimmerman-often by "questioning" or condeming Trayvon Martin? White, conservative men- of a type who ought to be ashamed of themselves, but their behavior continues to show that they have no shame, no goddam shame at all.
In the end, this will all turn out however it's going to: George Zimmerman (whose only photo appears to be a booking photo from that assault on a police officer) will be convicted and/or sued-or he'll get away with it, as it appears the PD wanted. The transgressions of the Sanford police department-real, imagined, past, near past and present-will be brought to light, or buried by the next chief of police, and a 17 year old boy who was only guilty of being a black kid on the sidewalk on a late winter evening, will be just as dead.
Yesterday was my son's birthday. We had a nice, small celebration-just the two of us, late in what was a beautiful spring day in Albuquerque, and I asked him about this case-he said he didn't want to talk about it, that it was just the same story: Florida, and black, and cops in Florida-I have my own "cops in Florida" story that's familiar to some of you, but that was 32 years ago, and I got to go home alive. Interestingly, my son easily looks "white" to most people, and Zimmerman probably wouldn't have thought twice about him "looking up to no good." There, I said it-some people report the guy actually went door to door telling his neighbors to be on the lookout for "black kids who look like their up to no good," when, in fact, there are black kids who live there-they may even be the ones that really are "up to no good," or responsible for the neigborhood's crimes, but that doesn't excuse Zimmerman's behavior, and I think further investigation is going to prove that it really doesn't excuse the PD's behavior.
Why are there so few black conservatives like me?
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
This. I am keeping an open mind about this thing. We don't honestly know what happened. But as Tez points out, it seems really genuinely weird to me that billcihak is deadset (no pun intended) on slandering Martin and to almost venerate Zimmerman. Billcihak, what's your stake in this? Why have you so clearly chosen a side?
Because the fat tub of ****, and the criminally negligent police department just made it harder for well-trained, law abiding CCW holders like myself, that's why I've chosen a side-this guy's crime has nothing to do with legitimate self-defense (he outweighed the guy by 100 lbs., and had a gun) and everything to do with being some kind of deluded wannabe-whether Trayvon Martin attacked him or not.
Hell, some strange guy is following me, and, if I can't run, I might just attack him. Some strange guy who's been following me pulls out a gun, and I'm going to attack him first chance I get, screaming for help the whole time.
That's "self-defense."
Tez, I would like to know more about the boy because of the two people involved, we know next to nothing about him. This whole thing looks like it is an escalation of errors on the part of both parties. Zimmerman, for following Martin and possibly martin for confronting zimmerman which may have led to the physical confrontation. The media here is portraying this as an execution because the teenager was black. I want to know all the facts, some here just see the race of the victim and assume the execution. As a leo yourself, coming on the scene of a shooting, do you only want information on the shooter or the victim as well?
It is 7:00 here in Illinois and it is bright as day out, 30 ft. away would be clearly visible.
Why am I looking at this the way I am. I guess first, I don't see it as an execution. I see it as errors made by both people that led to an escalation that led to the death of an innocent teenager. Part of it is the media coverage is sooo lopsided, without the benefit of having all the facts that it makes me more curious about what is not being covered because the race aspect has taken over the situation. I see that everything about the shooter is coming out, true and made up, and almost nothing about the victim. Not even the good stuff about the victim. That makes me curious. I am following a gut feeling here, that there is something that may be missing. I believe that zimmerman killed martin, I just think it was a horrible set of circumstances, and that interests me. At so many points, the whole thing could have been avoided. If zimmerman had stayed in the car, if Martin had made it to his fathers place, and the unknown factor of who initiated the physical confrontation. Those are part of what interests me in the case in general, but the missing info. on the teenager interests me also because of past crime stories on the news. YOu see the grieving family complaining about the police shooting a son and they all say he never did anything wrong. Then the anchor comes on and implies that the victim had run ins with the police. Later you hear "run ins," is actually an extensive criminal record with violent offenses. Soo, when there isn't word one about the victim, I wonder what isn't being said.
Oh, just to be clear, I don't want Martin to be the "guilty" one. I just want to know what actually happened, without being blinded by race to the point that what may actually have happened isn't the important thing anymore. Remember, the black teenager was shot by a "mixed" race hispanic.
It is 7:00 here in Illinois and it is bright as day out, 30 ft. away would be clearly visible.
Why am I looking at this the way I am. I guess first, I don't see it as an execution. I see it as errors made by both people that led to an escalation that led to the death of an innocent teenager. Part of it is the media coverage is sooo lopsided, without the benefit of having all the facts that it makes me more curious about what is not being covered because the race aspect has taken over the situation. I see that everything about the shooter is coming out, true and made up, and almost nothing about the victim. Not even the good stuff about the victim. That makes me curious. I am following a gut feeling here, that there is something that may be missing. I believe that zimmerman killed martin, I just think it was a horrible set of circumstances, and that interests me. At so many points, the whole thing could have been avoided. If zimmerman had stayed in the car, if Martin had made it to his fathers place, and the unknown factor of who initiated the physical confrontation. Those are part of what interests me in the case in general, but the missing info. on the teenager interests me also because of past crime stories on the news. YOu see the grieving family complaining about the police shooting a son and they all say he never did anything wrong. Then the anchor comes on and implies that the victim had run ins with the police. Later you hear "run ins," is actually an extensive criminal record with violent offenses. Soo, when there isn't word one about the victim, I wonder what isn't being said.
Oh, just to be clear, I don't want Martin to be the "guilty" one. I just want to know what actually happened, without being blinded by race to the point that what may actually have happened isn't the important thing anymore. Remember, the black teenager was shot by a "mixed" race hispanic.
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Big Don
Sr. Grandmaster
Isn't it amazing that, in this case, Zimmerman MUST be guilty because he is an alleged racist, but, in the murders in France, the FACT that the murderer self identified as a member of Al Qaeda and shouted "Allahu Akbar" while shooting, has NOTHING to do with his motivation?
billcihak said:
Proving, once and for all, how little actual thought goes into most of your posts.
On Feb. 26, the sun set at 6:24 in Orlando, Florida-it was nearly full dark by 7 pm, when Zimmerman's call took place.
Of course, nearly 30 days have passed since then, so the sun rises nearly 30 minutes earlier, and sets nearly 30 minutes later-as any sailor, astronomer, astrologer or fisherman could tell you.:lfao:
And, of course, we have the national abomination known as "daylight savings time," We set the clocks ahead one hour on Mar. 8, so your "bright as day at 7:00," it's really only 6:00-technically.
Poppa always said not to have a battle off wits with an unarmed man, so we're done here.:lfao:
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So the witness saw nothing that led up to what you just said, other than seeing 2 people on the ground? This proves my point. Sure the witness saw part of it, but not the whole thing. It'd be like coming in 1hr. into a 2hr movie and be expected to give accurate detail of everything in the movie. You can't. You can only give feedback on what you saw.
I can't recall, but I don't believe I said anything about race in my posts, ie: that Zimmerman was a racist. However, in a clip Elder posted, I heard some racial comments, coming from Zimmerman. Perhaps Mr. ZImmerman is in fact a racist. I dont know, you dont know, and I doubt anyone else here knows for sure. So, that being said, it would seem to me that:
Zimmerman lives in an area in which he feels is plagued by crime.
Zimmerman has called the police but due to the nature of the call, they are probably not putting it high on the priority list.
Zimmerman, after making numerous calls to the Police, and not getting a Star Trek Warp speed response, decided to be the unofficial neighborhood watch patrol.
Zimmerman saw this kid, and felt he was up to no good, so he called the cops and followed him.
Zimmerman, rather than listen to the dispatcher, got out of his vehicle and walked/ran after the kid.
Zimmerman seems like he's a hot head, judging by the rap sheet Elder posted. Assault on the LEO. Resisting arrest. Sounds like a hot head.
The kid may/may not have recognized Zimmerman. I dont know how light/dark it was at the time. Perhaps this kid was afraid.
The kid may have confronted Zimmerman, perhaps asking why he was following him, who he was, etc.
Did Zimmerman shoot this kid because the kid was black? I dont know. I'd say it wouldn't matter if the kid was green or pink or purple, the fact that there was a suspicious person in the area, that wasn't cooperating with Mr. Security Patrol, coupled with the fact this guy seems like a hot head, yeah, I'd say he'd have shot no matter what.
BTW, I dont know the answer to this so I'll ask: Was Zimmerman cleared to carry a weapon?
Hmmm...since you weren't there elder, you can't say how illuminated the area was or what the witness saw other than what the witness said he saw. It was off the back door of his townhouse/condo, so there very well could have been a patio light, and it could very well have been light enough at the time when the event took place.
billcihak said:
Hmmm...and if pigs could fly, we'd all have to carry heavy-duty umbrellas. If dogs had square anuses, they'd **** bricks.
If you had a girl friend (or maybe a boyfriend?), we might not have to deal with the regular hair-splitting inanities bordering on psychotically delusional, that you try to pass off as posts.
Poppa used to say something about not bothering with people who can't admit when they're wrong so we're still done here. :lfao:
billcihak said:
I never wrote you poetry, billi-I wrote poetry as you. A failure to grasp that distinction is yet another indication of some sort of intellectual disconnect, I think.
You want "creepy," though? Here ya go:
My love for billcihak is so great,
my heart melts for him 'til the dusk of day.
He writes the night away,
posts,and masturbates 'til day's dawn.
His banality is great,
Wondering mind while he yet lives
vomiting is all I do, :barf:
While waiting for the moment, for him to say "I give." :lfao:
Here are some thoughts from author Steven Barnes blog, he touches on some of the things I said, and some others, and mostly says them better than I can......as usual. :lol:
zDom
Senior Master
Even if the kid DID overcome Zimmerman and end up grounding and pounding him,
I STILL don't see this as a case of "Stand Your Ground."
I see nothing wrong with Zimmerman keeping an eye on the kid for a bit to see what he was up to — because he was teenaged boy.
According to FBI stats, most burglaries are committed by males ages 16-24.
Getting out of his vehicle was a line Zimmerman crossed; IMO he forfeited his right to claim "standing his ground" when he took the first step out of his vehicle toward Trayvon.
Trayvon was either in a public street/sidewalk — in which case Zimmerman could have continued to trail him; OR Trayvon cut through somebody's yard — in which case he should have taken note of the address and advised his local law enforcement agency. Not his business to confront the boy even if he witnessed him crawling in a window.
Other than someone losing their life which is tragic even if it was a justified case of self defense (which I'm not sure it is),
I am aggravated that some try to make this about race. If it comes out it was, well.. thats something. But I can't stand that some have to assume that just because Trayvon was black, it had to be racial;
I'm aggravated that the media is using this to fuel their anti gun, anti self defense law agenda. (Thanks, Zimmerman, for making things harder on those trying to maintain the right to self defense ... /end bitter sarcasm).
I'm aggravated that some will jump to Zimmerman's defense because of their pro-gun, pro self defense agenda.
I'm aggravated at the phrase "shot an unarmed boy" because just because he was unarmed doesn't mean there wasn't a danger (not saying that Trayvon was dangerous).
I'm aggravated because the black community will demonstrate every time someone of their race is killed by someone of another race. Where are the demonstrations for all the young black men being gunned down by other black men?
Why does every incident have to be saddled with pile of agendas?
Why do our "stand your ground" laws and CCW laws have to be "examined" just because some ******* uses those as his excuse and his local police back his play?
I STILL don't see this as a case of "Stand Your Ground."
I see nothing wrong with Zimmerman keeping an eye on the kid for a bit to see what he was up to — because he was teenaged boy.
According to FBI stats, most burglaries are committed by males ages 16-24.
Getting out of his vehicle was a line Zimmerman crossed; IMO he forfeited his right to claim "standing his ground" when he took the first step out of his vehicle toward Trayvon.
Trayvon was either in a public street/sidewalk — in which case Zimmerman could have continued to trail him; OR Trayvon cut through somebody's yard — in which case he should have taken note of the address and advised his local law enforcement agency. Not his business to confront the boy even if he witnessed him crawling in a window.
Other than someone losing their life which is tragic even if it was a justified case of self defense (which I'm not sure it is),
I am aggravated that some try to make this about race. If it comes out it was, well.. thats something. But I can't stand that some have to assume that just because Trayvon was black, it had to be racial;
I'm aggravated that the media is using this to fuel their anti gun, anti self defense law agenda. (Thanks, Zimmerman, for making things harder on those trying to maintain the right to self defense ... /end bitter sarcasm).
I'm aggravated that some will jump to Zimmerman's defense because of their pro-gun, pro self defense agenda.
I'm aggravated at the phrase "shot an unarmed boy" because just because he was unarmed doesn't mean there wasn't a danger (not saying that Trayvon was dangerous).
I'm aggravated because the black community will demonstrate every time someone of their race is killed by someone of another race. Where are the demonstrations for all the young black men being gunned down by other black men?
Why does every incident have to be saddled with pile of agendas?
Why do our "stand your ground" laws and CCW laws have to be "examined" just because some ******* uses those as his excuse and his local police back his play?
I would say that whoever initiated the first point of physical contact crossed the line. Since Zimmerman and Martin both had claim to be in that grassy area between the condos/townhomes, Zimmerman lived there, and Martin's dad lived there,whoever touched the other guy first crossed the line. As long as zimmerman maintained a certain distance in a public way, he really hadn't crossed the line. If he touched martin first, it's all on him. If, as in Steves material, he said he began to walk back to his vehicle and Martin touched him, then Martin crossed the line. Does it justify killing him, of course not. But I think the law would see that physical contact initiation as important. We still don't have the facts, all the witness accounts, or what really happened, so we will never know for sure...
Now keeping in mind we don't really know anything for sure, this is from Steve's posts...
This may or may not be true, but this is where knowing something about Martin as a teenager comes in. If Zimmerman is claiming he was going back to his truck, what kind of kid is Martin. Black, white, asian, hispanic or pacific Islander, race doesn't matter, it is what kind of teenager was he.
--Did he get into fights at school.
--did he ever bring a weapon to school
--was he a discipline problem
the reason these questions are important is if Zimmerman can show he was leaving the immediate scene, would Martin, black, white, hispanic, asian, indian, be the kind of teennager to try to continue the encounter with physical contact, which may have escalated the situation. We don't know any of this.
Also, as far as I know, yelling at other people in public is only against the law as far as disturbing the peace is concerned. They could have shouted at each other all night long..."What are you doing here," "None of your business," and so forth. As long as no one touches the other one, it is not that big of a problem. Crossing the line comes from moving forward and making physical contact against the other persons wishes. Is this an accurate view from a law enforcement standard? Once again, if the escalation led to a wrongful shooting, then of course whoever is at fault needs to go to jail.
Another point. Since everyone is calling Zimmerman a wannabe cop, how readily could he, as a wannabe cop, tell if Martin was armed at all. Could he tell if Martin was carrying a small knife or box cutter. I would say no. This goes to the actual altercation seen by the one witness. When you are cut, how soon do you know it. I had an instructor who was an airforce M.P. who was stabbed in the back with a knife by a criminal. He had no idea he had been stabbed, he thought he was punched.
If you go to the martial side of this site, how many martial artists here would be concerned if someone punched at them. It seems to me a recent thread talked about needing to assume that whoever is punching may have a small weapon, and to deal with it aggressively just in case. You won't really know till after the fight.
All things to consider when this goes to court...
Here is an article to consider...
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...r-attack-during-shutter-island-screening.html
Now keeping in mind we don't really know anything for sure, this is from Steve's posts...
This may or may not be true, but this is where knowing something about Martin as a teenager comes in. If Zimmerman is claiming he was going back to his truck, what kind of kid is Martin. Black, white, asian, hispanic or pacific Islander, race doesn't matter, it is what kind of teenager was he.
--Did he get into fights at school.
--did he ever bring a weapon to school
--was he a discipline problem
the reason these questions are important is if Zimmerman can show he was leaving the immediate scene, would Martin, black, white, hispanic, asian, indian, be the kind of teennager to try to continue the encounter with physical contact, which may have escalated the situation. We don't know any of this.
Also, as far as I know, yelling at other people in public is only against the law as far as disturbing the peace is concerned. They could have shouted at each other all night long..."What are you doing here," "None of your business," and so forth. As long as no one touches the other one, it is not that big of a problem. Crossing the line comes from moving forward and making physical contact against the other persons wishes. Is this an accurate view from a law enforcement standard? Once again, if the escalation led to a wrongful shooting, then of course whoever is at fault needs to go to jail.
Another point. Since everyone is calling Zimmerman a wannabe cop, how readily could he, as a wannabe cop, tell if Martin was armed at all. Could he tell if Martin was carrying a small knife or box cutter. I would say no. This goes to the actual altercation seen by the one witness. When you are cut, how soon do you know it. I had an instructor who was an airforce M.P. who was stabbed in the back with a knife by a criminal. He had no idea he had been stabbed, he thought he was punched.
If you go to the martial side of this site, how many martial artists here would be concerned if someone punched at them. It seems to me a recent thread talked about needing to assume that whoever is punching may have a small weapon, and to deal with it aggressively just in case. You won't really know till after the fight.
All things to consider when this goes to court...
Here is an article to consider...
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...r-attack-during-shutter-island-screening.html
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