Unarmed Florida Teen Shot

[granfire]

Thats kind of a flawed argument. If in fact there were an increase in burglaries in the area and if the suspects are identifed as young black males it would be only make sense that when you see a strange young black male then as a neighborhood watch person you would want to check them out.

Recent example we have a neighborhood thats has an increase in burglary in the last 2 months. We have footage of the suspect hes a hispanic male looks to be mid 20s tall and skinny. So when im in the area should i not be looking for a young hispanic male tall and skinny? I of course wont only look for hispanics but if i notice one acting suspicious like walking in the rain thru the neighborhood should i not atbleast watch them.for a bit tosee what hes doing?

It's the TSA logic in things I think:
The 9/11 terrorists where men in their mid 20s, of middle eastern descent. This is why they fondle little girls and old crippled women of caucasian descent. It's logic!

Because when you notice the difference in skin tone you are a RACIST.

 

[jks9199]

A while ago up-thread, someone took a stab at pointing out my or someone else's faulty logic (if [these do this] and [that does that] then [this is that] ... or some such supposed fallacy).

The above quote evidences the precise kind of logical fallacy that the earlier poster referenced:

Premise: Twin Lakes is a neighborhood;

Premise: Young Blacks had been burglarizing houses in the neighborhood;

Premise: Trayvon Martin is a young Black;

Conclusion: Trayvon Martin is a burglary suspect.

These kinds of absurd leaps in logic can definitely apply to other ethnicities and races as well. Think child molester, serial killer, financial fraudster, etc.

I disagree. You have black kids burglarizing a neighborhood. You have a black kid out walking in inclement weather. The kid is a burglary SUSPECT. Suspicion is not proof; being a suspect does not mean someone is guilty of the offense. That suspicion can be dispelled or confirmed. Zimmerman called the police to do that, and eventually ended up in a confrontation with Martin. Zimmerman did have reasonable, articulable suspicion based on your own assessment here. (I don't know how accurate the "black kids have been burglarizing homes" line is; race is actually rather irrelevant.) Zimmerman initially acted in a reasonable manner to confirm or dispel that suspicion; he called the police. It becomes more problematic with the actual confrontation -- but we don't know who said what, and how. Without some of those details -- either or both could have been the problem.

 

[elder999]

Is it common sense or good math to conclude that my next violent or near-violent confrontation will likely be with a bigoted White male?

Yes.

 

[ballen0351]

It's the TSA logic in things I think:
The 9/11 terrorists where men in their mid 20s, of middle eastern descent. This is why they fondle little girls and old crippled women of caucasian descent. It's logic!

Because when you notice the difference in skin tone you are a RACIST.

I disagree with that also.
In the Martin case you have a specific set of issues. Rise in crime in a specific area with in a specific time frame and a specifc set of suspects in these crimes Young black males in this specific area. There are set boundries. For example I cant say there was a rise in thefts in Sanford Fla commit by black males so In Boston Mass I need to be looking for black males. Or same token I cant say well we had thefts in this area 5 years ago commited by a group of hispanics so the new rise in crime in this area must be hispanics. You need some evidence to build your "profile"

TSA has a much wider scope so you cant just look for 1 specific type of person. There are white terror groups, asian terror groups, black terror groups, lone wolf crazy people that could all try to hijack a plane. There is no specifc set of issues with that.

2 totally different issues.

 

[elder999]

No don't go back to the 70's go back 150 years what ever its a cultural fact in the south or other areas a black person cannot walk or wear certain clothes or just go where they want with out risk. Zimmerman being Hispanic is not the issue he was an agressive non black and there was probable cause the police department is a mess and he should have been arrested and leave to a jury to decide inocent or guilty plane and simple

So now were going back to the 70's as to why Zimmerman wasnt charged? Why stop there why not go back to Rosewood in 1923, or even further lets blame Zimmerman not being charged on slavery. Save your Racist Fla cop crap for someone else.

 

[ballen0351]

View attachment 16329

Nevermind we went over that like 20 pages ago but thats for playing

 

[granfire]

I disagree with that also.
In the Martin case you have a specific set of issues. Rise in crime in a specific area with in a specific time frame and a specifc set of suspects in these crimes Young black males in this specific area. There are set boundries. For example I cant say there was a rise in thefts in Sanford Fla commit by black males so In Boston Mass I need to be looking for black males. Or same token I cant say well we had thefts in this area 5 years ago commited by a group of hispanics so the new rise in crime in this area must be hispanics. You need some evidence to build your "profile"

TSA has a much wider scope so you cant just look for 1 specific type of person. There are white terror groups, asian terror groups, black terror groups, lone wolf crazy people that could all try to hijack a plane. There is no specifc set of issues with that.

2 totally different issues.

I forgot </sarcasm>

But the premise is the same: You have a profile of the suspected offenders.
To catch - or deter them you have to follow the profile.

Not all young black males are burglars and thieves.
But when you are in a neighborhood that has been hit by young black males and you happen t fit the category, guess what, you are suspect.
That neighbor who has not seen you before does not know that you are singing in the church.

 

[Wo Fat]

Thats kind of a flawed argument. If in fact there were an increase in burglaries in the area and if the suspects are identifed as young black males it would be only make sense that when you see a strange young black male then as a neighborhood watch person you would want to check them out.

Recent example we have a neighborhood thats has an increase in burglary in the last 2 months. We have footage of the suspect hes a hispanic male looks to be mid 20s tall and skinny. So when im in the area should i not be looking for a young hispanic male tall and skinny? I of course wont only look for hispanics but if i notice one acting suspicious like walking in the rain thru the neighborhood should i not atbleast watch them.for a bit tosee what hes doing?

You're right. The argument I offered is a flawed one, which is precisely why I offered it. It's not enough to conclude that if [bad things happen] and people from Group A have done [bad things], then Group A tend to be bad people. There are several relevant intervening factors that don't allow for such an over-simplified conclusion.

Now, the defense of GZ--at least by some here--is that he was following the logic of [young Black males committing burglaries in the area + TM was a young Black male = TM is likely to commit a burglary (or at the very least, suspicious)]. We know that GZ deemed TM as suspicious; the 911 transcripts indicate that.

Now, for the record, I have said on several occasions:

I don't know if GZ is a racist per se.

I would also agree--again--that I do not know that Zimmerman is a racist.

And as has been suggested, GZ is part Afro-Peruvian; GZ has Black family or extended family; GZ has Black friends; GZ has served as a mentor for young Black males, etc., etc. Not all that unusual. But to rely on these factors to refute the "GZ is a racist argument" then one must also acknowledge that if anyone would tend to avoid pre-judging a young Black person as suspicious, it would have been GZ. Someone with such an affinity for Black people--as some are suggesting--would likely not have immediately assumed that TM was "a real suspicious guy".

As it were with the fallacious argument that I offered, it's the same here. It's absurd for me to conclude that since I've only had problems with White guys, that it's logically reasonable that I should be suspicious of them. Especially with all the intervening factors--my family members are White; my friends are White; my students are White. It's equally absurd to conclude that GZ only needed to act on the "logic" that young Black males were suspicious.

None of us can have it both ways.

 

[elder999]

Nevermind we went over that like 20 pages ago but thats for playing

Well no, not really.

One can't be black in America without having images like this imprinted upon their consciousness, and suspecting as much each time an unarmed black man is killed-by a private citizen or the police:

View attachment $Lawrence-Beitler-Lynching.jpgView attachment $three.jpgView attachment $lynching.jpgView attachment $Omaha_courthouse_lynching.jpg

It simply was not that long ago that the lives of black people were regarded this cavalierly in the U.S.-couple that with the perceived inaction, if not misconduct, of the Sanford P.D., and one cannot help but wonder, regardless of anything anyone has had to say in 43 pages.

To try to leave race completely out of it by denying racism is simply......whitewashing. :

 

[granfire]

Well no, not really.

One can't be black in America without having images like this imprinted upon their consciousness, and suspecting as much each time an unarmed black man is killed-by a private citizen or the police:

View attachment 16330View attachment 16331View attachment 16332View attachment 16333View attachment 16334View attachment 16335

It simply was not that long ago that the lives of black people were regarded this cavalierly in the U.S.-couple that with the perceived inaction, if not misconduct, of the Sanford P.D., and one cannot help but wonder, regardless of anything anyone has had to say in 43 pages.

To try to leave race completely out of it by denying racism is simply......whitewashing. :

I normally agree with you, but this is crap.

I suppose where Bill M. loses objectivity with religion, that is your point of less than stellar objectivity.

because 50 years ago that happened mean automatically a true American mutt guy of the neighborhood watch is indeed a racist.

I loff you, but this is BS.

 

[ballen0351]

Elder Im not even sure what point your trying to make. Nobody has said Racism didnt exist 50 years ago , today, or even 50 years from now. Ok Racism exists whats that got to do with this conversation?

 

[elder999]

I normally agree with you, but this is crap.

I suppose where Bill M. loses objectivity with religion, that is your point of less than stellar objectivity.

because 50 years ago that happened mean automatically a true American mutt guy of the neighborhood watch is indeed a racist.

I loff you, but this is BS.

Nowhere in this thread have I accused Zimmerman of being a racist.

Nor is that what I'm doing by bringing this up-I'm just saying that black people aren't going to view it the same way as others might, because of events like this. I'm saying that you can't "get over slavery," or lynchings that took place 80 years ago, or 50 years ago, or even two years ago,because they're part of what black people simply have to be conscious of, each and every day-I can't say what Trayvon Martin was thinking when a strange man was following him, but I'll bet this was part of it-it has to be, just as I have to "accept" every single time someone views me as a possible menace, simply because of my appearance-it's what people are going to do, and I have no choice.

 

[granfire]

Nowhere in this thread have I accused Zimmerman of being a racist.

Nor is that what I'm doing by bringing this up-I'm just saying that black people aren't going to view it the same way as others might, because of events like this. I'm saying that you can't "get over slavery," or lynchings that took place 80 years ago, or 50 years ago, or even two years ago,because they're part of what black people simply have to be conscious of, each and every day-I can't say what Trayvon Martin was thinking when a strange man was following him, but I'll bet this was part of it-it has to be, just as I have to "accept" every single time someone views me as a possible menace, simply because of my appearance-it's what people are going to do, and I have no choice.

Yeah, Like I am double checking when I am describing a person 'that black guy' just does not roll over the tongue easily.

race is what it is.
racism goes both ways.
yep, got a kid here, can't go out with the girl he likes, because her parents don't like her going out with a white guy.

 

[WC_lun]

I think there is a point to be made on both sides. We do not know if Zimmerman acted out of racist motivation. We don't have the facts of the case to know. At the same time we do know that being a black man, especially a young black man, comes with certain risk and there IS a bloody history. Even though many of us caucasians are not racist by any means, that history is still there. It isn't something that will be soon forgotten by the black communities here, and that is natural. It is also why cries of racism spring up, where none is intended. Whites in this country aren't working off a great track record.

It is better if we understand where our fellow countrymen are coming from. It will lead to an understanding that diminishes quarrels. Instead of getting pissed because some in the black community are crying racism without proof, look at our history and why they do so.

 

[elder999]

Elder Im not even sure what point your trying to make. Nobody has said Racism didnt exist 50 years ago , today, or even 50 years from now. Ok Racism exists whats that got to do with this conversation?

An unarmed black boy shot dead, without any charges, and an "investigation" that the lead investigator signs an affidavit attesting to its lack of completion sounds like a legal lynching-especially if you're black.

 

[elder999]

Yeah, Like I am double checking when I am describing a person 'that black guy' just does not roll over the tongue easily.

race is what it is.
racism goes both ways.
yep, got a kid here, can't go out with the girl he likes, because her parents don't like her going out with a white guy.

Interstingly, there's a strikingly similar story in Georgia involving just such a scenario.

He grabbed the .22-caliber pistol he kept next to his bed and went to investigate. He found two young brothers who had been secretly invited to party with an 18-year-old relative he had raised like a daughter and her younger friend. The young people were paired up in separate bedrooms. There was marijuana and sex.
Over the course of the next confusing minutes on a January morning in 2011, there would be a struggle. The young men would make a terrified run for the door. Mr. Neesmith, who is 62 and white, fired four shots. One of them hit Justin Patterson, who was 22 and black.
The bullet pierced his side, and he died in Mr. Neesmith&#8217;s yard. His younger brother, Sha&#8217;von, then 18, ran through the onion fields in the dark, frantically trying to call his mother.

Of course, the reason this story hasn't got nearly as much attention is that the shooter was immediately charged.

 

[ballen0351]

An unarmed black boy shot dead, without any charges, and an "investigation" that the lead investigator signs an affidavit attesting to its lack of completion sounds like a legal lynching-especially if you're black.

Well i guess if you try hard enough you can find racism in everything but it does not mean its true

 

[elder999]

Well i guess if you try hard enough you can find racism in everything but it does not mean its true

Not saying it is racism -what I'm saying is it's culturally imprinted on black people to see it that way, based on past events.

If you don't see it through that lens, it's because you weren't issued "black goggles." :lol:

"True" or not, that's the way most people are going to see it-they can't help it, circumstances being what they are: the kid wasn't robbing anyone, wasn't armed, wasn't where he wasn't supposed to be. It looks-without knowing all the other facts-like the kid was shot for being a ****** on the sidewalk on a rainy evening, and the police didn't do anything about it.

 

[Tez3]

Not saying it is racism -what I'm saying is it's culturally imprinted on black people to see it that way, based on past events.

If you don't see it through that lens, it's because you weren't issued "black goggles." :lol:

"True" or not, that's the way most people are going to see it-they can't help it, circumstances being what they are: the kid wasn't robbing anyone, wasn't armed, wasn't where he wasn't supposed to be. It looks-without knowing all the other facts-like the kid was shot for being a ****** on the sidewalk on a rainy evening, and the police didn't do anything about it.

I can see what you are getting at, it's like a race memory. I've had a good safe life in the UK but I still shiver at the word pogrom because of it's connotations and meaning for my people. I can still feel fear about mobs etc even though it's been years since Jews were killed in this way and it certainly never affected me directly but it's still there in the back of my mind despite all logic telling me it shouldn't be.
I've only seen one of those photos before, the bridge one, the rest have shocked me quite a bit.

 

[billc]

And yet african americans vote overwhelmingly for democrats...