Unabridged Library of Contemporary Kenpo

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

It's not a matter of 'waiting' for a grab...
it's simply teaching a lesson on what could be done once a grab does happen, which is very probable..therefore we train for it.

Your Brother
John

Prepare for the worst-case scenario; hop for the best. But if you train for the best, and get the worst, you'll be unprepared.

I train grabs as grabs, not "attempted grabs". Is Locking Horns against an attempted front headlock? Sure, it would be nice to keep a guy from getting you there, but in the event you find yourself in that place, then what?

Regards,

Dave

 

[Seabrook]

It's not a matter of 'waiting' for a grab...
it's simply teaching a lesson on what could be done once a grab does happen, which is very probable..therefore we train for it.

Your Brother
John

Exactly John!

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Touch Of Death]

I see this as different techniques to back each other up.
1st the hand is coming toward you... do you wait to see if it's a shove, a grab or a punch? no...you act on it there.
BUT: What if they DO grap you....
then you have the vocabulary from other techniques...like snapping twig, to help at this stage. That's why we have techiques that teach us what to do Once we have been grabbed. I'd hope that a good martial artist, under most circumstances... could react to that hand coming toward them.
BUT...no guarantees. Thus we need to know what to do once their hand makes it to the grab.
Each technique teaches a lesson, it might not be the ideal (Letting someone get their hand close enough to you that you get pushed/shoved)...but it's possible and even probable that it could happen that way. Thus the lesson of Snapping Twig and techs like it. Back-up. Often the "what if" of one technique IS another technique already in our curriculum. MOST often, I think.
Just something to think about.
Your Brother
John

Once the grab is on, or you have been shoved your tech might not work for a number of obvious reasons. Its unrealistic for a twelve year old to practice defending grabs from a 250lb male. If he sluffs fine, but his fingers could detach chest muscles in a firm jerk, and snapping twig aint gonna work after the shove.
Sean

 

[Brother John]

I think it's interesting. I wouldn't teach from it. I agree with the point that Robert made I think.
Besides: This gave me a chuckle..
In describing the 'attack' for delayed sword:

an aggressor initiates an unprovoked attack by stepping forward (with either foot) and grabbing you with his right hand to your shirt or left lapel.

SO...IF I'm to beieve this, the attack wasn't provoked.
Therefore, if I first have mouthed off to this guy (NO....NOT ME!!!) then the technique won't work and I'll just get what's coming to me.
HA, I like that.

Your Brother
John

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think it's interesting. I wouldn't teach from it. I agree with the point that Robert made I think.
Besides: This gave me a chuckle..
In describing the 'attack' for delayed sword:
SO...IF I'm to beieve this, the attack wasn't provoked.
Therefore, if I first have mouthed off to this guy (NO....NOT ME!!!) then the technique won't work and I'll just get what's coming to me.
HA, I like that.

Your Brother
John

I might have to actualy look at this site before I further defend it, but a person trying to instill a sense of when to do the art, is not a bad thing. And trying instill a bit of reality to the ideal is not all bad either.
Sean

 

[Doc]

Idealy you would wait for the grab. Why, I don't know.
Sean

The reason why sir, is the curriculum is supposed to teach you practical responses to proposed assault models. The Web of Knowledge was created to insure that teachers did not become enamored with a particular kind of an attack and ignore others that must also be considered in a realistic environment.

Those who have abbreviated and changed the curriculum, for the most part, have dumped the WOK. They have made things "easier" for the student, and for themselves as well. Eliminating techniques they have no knowledge of how to make functional, and making it easier to promote students with a limited amount of information and skill. Many have done this under the guise of "simpler is better," or "I'd rather have ten techniques that work well." However this approach for those who have spent years in the arts suggest they have stopped learning and are creating a similar legacy for those they teach, who will learn even less. The idea of the art is consistent and constant growth, not stagnation of the student that some promote.

Further, and quite simply, if you never practice actually being grabbed, how will you learn to defend against it, should it happen? Those who practice grappling sports often begin from the "mount." Why? Because the presumption for them, (right or wrong) is at some point in time they will find themselves in this postion and they better train for it. Same thing sir.

Clearly I am NOT suggesting in the real world you should wait for someone to grab you so you can do the prescribed technique. You should however practice and learn to deal with it should you be caught unaware, which for mere mortals like us Sean is a definite possibility sir.

 

[Doc]

We were taught to control the distance, and not let the shove happen. I am being totaly serious here... do you teach students to react to the shove after or before contact?
Sean

Sir, we teach that the shove is a natural byproduct of the attack when you are grabbed emphatically and aggressively. We teach a reaction to it that is integral to the defensive application. After all to react to a grab before you are grabbed is not practicing for a grab, but punch.

There is a tendancy for some to approach these attacks like punches. A person may "punch" without making contact with you, and you can respond and "block." However, a "push" or "grab" by definition is something that has already occurred and you react AFTER it happens.

 

[Doc]

If its a hard shove or a striking push, your right side would be jolted to the rear and you would not be pulling off Snapping Twig. You have to have some level of awareness and control here.
Sean

Actually Sean there are mechanisms that allow you to absorb the shove, recover, and retaliate, as I teach. The shove is a given, now let's work on the response.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Actually Sean there are mechanisms that allow you to absorb the shove, recover, and retaliate, as I teach. The shove is a given, now let's work on the response.

Really? absorb push then react, shouldn't be the ideal. It should be the what if, you didn't control the distance. What is the purpose of a grab? And how unfavorable does that predicament have to be before we train to avoid it? If the launches the push and keeps his elbow anchored, its time to abandon snapping twig in favor of figuring out what to do after you adjust your composure, because that right hand is commin hard and fast.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

The shove is a given, now let's work on the response.

I have no problem training what to do after you get hit or shoved. Techniques are studies of motion, by all means, study.
Sean

 

[MJS]

It's not a matter of 'waiting' for a grab...
it's simply teaching a lesson on what could be done once a grab does happen, which is very probable..therefore we train for it.

Your Brother
John

Exactly! I think thats where some miscommunication may have happened with a few posts. We are taught techs. for when the grab is actually applied, when the person is punching, kicking, etc. but IMO, if it is possible to react prior to the punch, grab or kick, why not do it? If I saw someone winding up for that punch, I'm certainly not going to wait until it half way to my face before I attempt a defense.

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh-oh, I agree with Mr. Chap'el. Wholeheartedly.

And there are other reasons to teach the grab or the push as set, not just attempted. It's largely a matter of treating the attacker's hand/arm as, "pinned," momentarily, so that it can be attacked--and of using that fixedness as an opportunity to control depth and width and height.

Try practicing "Snapping Twig," with TWO pushes: first, the attacker pops you with two heel-palms, then second, follows up with a left push to center chest that they try to do in conjunction with a right punch.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Actually Sean there are mechanisms that allow you to absorb the shove, recover, and retaliate, as I teach. The shove is a given, now let's work on the response.

Obviously you are talking about the adults you teach and I'm thinking it would be ideal for children to consider not getting hit or pushed first the ideal, because you can teach a ten year old your "trick" but his widow of survival is almost non existant against say... an adult with intent. The reason we are arguing this point is because someone tried to suggest an other than ideal intro. I say change the ideal then train for the worst.
Sean

 

[Michael Billings]

I also am with Doc and Robert on this one.

The ideal allows you to control the opponent's DEPTH of action, and checks the left punch (if they maintain their grab). If they let go of the lapel, then haven't you created enough depth to be out of range without their taking another step or shuffle forward? Now we are in another scenario.

You have changed the parameters of the attack from your first move, whether they retain a grab or not. This teaches a lot to the student with no experience and this being their first technique. Referencing the Web of Knowledge, the element of TIMING has been removed from the grab not altogether, but at the ideal we can introduce the beginner to the correct fundamentals of motion (stances, rotation, depth of action, borrowed force, height, width, depth zones, checking, etc.)

I certainly have practiced it against a push or a punch, or in combination attacks along with Sword of Destruction. But the IDEAL PHASE is exactly that, and a time when we can train correct movement in the student.

Just an opinion ... everyone is entitled to one ... and one only please!


-Michael

 

[Doc]

Just so my position is clear, whether it is a technique that specifically "pushes" like "Snapping twig," or a "grab" like "Delayed Sword," that has a push as a byproduct of the grab, we must learn to deal with that, because it can happen at some point in your life - unless you are always in a neutral bow waiting for an attack. Most people live their lives, with minor self defense intrusions rarely if ever. So train for when you are "off guard." For the "ninja's" who sleep with one eye open, it probably doesn't matter.

 

[kenpoworks]

Doc ..."So train for when you are "off guard." "

My training aim is "never to be off gaurd", it's a tall order Doc but it will keep you sharper longer than "trophy cabinet Kenpo" will!

Richard.

 

[Brother John]

Doc ..."So train for when you are "off guard." "

My training aim is "never to be off gaurd", it's a tall order Doc but it will keep you sharper longer than "trophy cabinet Kenpo" will!

Richard.

Nice ideal.
Won't happen.

If you were 'never off guard' you'd be what we call Neurotic. It's good to really stress 'awareness', but to NEVER be off guard??
Won't happen.

Your Brother
John

 

[Touch Of Death]

Nice ideal.
Won't happen.

If you were 'never off guard' you'd be what we call Neurotic. It's good to really stress 'awareness', but to NEVER be off guard??
Won't happen.

Your Brother
John

I guess this is what happens when we throw out the eight considerations of combat. The idea isn't to eliminate being off guard, its to narrow that down time. John, convince me its better for a student to learn a given tech from an unaware state every time, as oposed to a best case senerio for you, and then working towards greater degrees of difficulty per tech. I know we want to be prepared for the worst but if the student never sees a street smart approach he or she will gravitate to waiting and doing what they are taught.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Does a cycle of training to be unaware, make us more aware?

 

[kenpoworks]

Brother John....."If you were 'never off guard' you'd be what we call Neurotic"........Ha!Ha! Ha! could even make you slightly Paranoid.................Who said that?....I know someone's there........I'm ready, I'm ready, I,m re..............