Unabridged Library of Contemporary Kenpo

[KENPOJOE]

"When someone grabs youin or regrab."

that should read "when someone grabs you: Pin or regrab"
sorry for the unintentional smiley!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

I'm not sure I can think of a kenpo technique in which, when you get grabbed, you DON'T slap a hand on top of the grab.

Hi Folks!
Got a quick story regarding that! I was at a seminar with Mr. Parker in the early 1980's and we were doing "Crossing Talon" and I was doing a pronounced pinning check on my opponent's wrist. Mr. Parker walked up ro me and asked me to perform the technique on him! He grabbed me in the cross wrist grab and as i did the slapping pinning check, he immediately placed his free hand on top of mine! [as in the old childplay's game withthe baseball handle to see who would be up at bat first] This would later clarify the point of "pin OR regrab" and it also gave me the understanding to the foundation attack to "bow of compulsion" [I.E: "i push you-you pin me-i pin your pinning hand]. The "regrab" version of crossing talon is taught in short 3 to teach you that you can "pin or regrab" depending on the circumstances.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[Bill Lear]

Hi Folks!
Got a quick story regarding that! I was at a seminar with Mr. Parker in the early 1980's and we were doing "Crossing Talon" and I was doing a pronounced pinning check on my opponent's wrist. Mr. Parker walked up ro me and asked me to perform the technique on him! He grabbed me in the cross wrist grab and as i did the slapping pinning check, he immediately placed his free hand on top of mine! [as in the old childplay's game withthe baseball handle to see who would be up at bat first] This would later clarify the point of "pin OR regrab" and it also gave me the understanding to the foundation attack to "bow of compulsion" [I.E: "i push you-you pin me-i pin your pinning hand]. The "regrab" version of crossing talon is taught in short 3 to teach you that you can "pin or regrab" depending on the circumstances.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

I was taught that the position of the left hand in Short Form 3 wasn't a re-grab at all. I was taught that the left hand assisted in rolling your right hand over the top of your opponent's wrist in the form. The action with the left hand looks similar to a regrab, but it isn't. At least that's what I've always been told.

 

[Doc]

I was taught that the position of the left hand in Short Form 3 wasn't a re-grab at all. I was taught that the left hand assisted in rolling your right hand over the top of your opponent's wrist in the form. The action with the left hand looks similar to a regrab, but it isn't. At least that's what I've always been told.

You are correct Mr. Lear. I also suggest for some to examine the ability to "step back" into a stance in Delayed Sword when someone has grabbed you and anchored their elbow. In most instances there would tend to be a height and weight, and even gendar disparity between the grabber and the grabbed. Further the Web of Knowledge dictates this technique be taught as a "dead hand" or grab - not a push. Food for thought.

 

[Seabrook]

If you look at Larry Tatum's version of the journal, he advises the inward block to the right bicep, because if you have done the left pinning check and done the extending action, you can safely break the kenpo law of "when blocking to the inside of an arm, block below the elbow,not above it" because you've pinned the limb and the "blocking strike" will cause his hand to open and the grab will be released.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

Just wondering who on this forum teaches the inward strike to the bicep? I know the bicep is a good alternative but I am interested in knowing if that is the way you typically teach it to students.

Thanks,
Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Doc]

Just wondering who on this forum teaches the inward strike to the bicep? I know the bicep is a good alternative but I am interested in knowing if that is the way you typically teach it to students.

Thanks,
Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Not I. I teach an inward downward strike to the head of the humerus of the shoulder corresponding with L-1 to neutralize the grip (among other things)

 

[Doc]

... However, beyond a certain level, it's not an absolute Kenpo fundamental to slap a hand on top of a grab ...

I beg to differ but it actually is. It was called many things by Mr. parker while he was trying to make up his mind, but you MUST attack the hand with a "Slap-check/Seize" anf this fundamental concept is consistent throughtout kenpo, motion or otherwise.

 

[Seabrook]

Not I. I teach an inward downward strike to the head of the humerus of the shoulder corresponding with L-1 to neutralize the grip (among other things)

Ouch.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Touch Of Death]

I was taught that Delayed Sword was for when the person was grabbing at you, not when they already have grabbed you. Maybe this is one of those things that Mr. Parker taught everyone a little differently.

Idealy you would wait for the grab. Why, I don't know.
Sean

 

[distalero]

I beg to differ but it actually is. It was called many things by Mr. parker while he was trying to make up his mind, but you MUST attack the hand with a "Slap-check/Seize" anf this fundamental concept is consistent throughtout kenpo, motion or otherwise.

Ok, you're both right (I had to actually do it the original way I was taught to remember; took me a few seconds); my muscle memory suggests this. But it's brief, and not a strong grab per se, in my version. It's just that I went on, rightly or wrongly, to choose to blow my own little riff here (one from column A, two from column B ), based on my size and strength (small and not so strong anymore) which, rightly or wrongly, any later student can do when you're more 'chinese kenpo' than AK. Ah, the freedom of ignorance.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Beyond the fact that unless you're Superman, Mushashi, or somebody far more advanced than I, you can't guarantee that you'll never get grabbed, pushed or shoved in a crowd--and beyond the fact that beginners especially can't guarantee this--I'd ask: so why do you let them actually push you in, say, Snapping Twig?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Beyond the fact that unless you're Superman, Mushashi, or somebody far more advanced than I, you can't guarantee that you'll never get grabbed, pushed or shoved in a crowd--and beyond the fact that beginners especially can't guarantee this--I'd ask: so why do you let them actually push you in, say, Snapping Twig?

We were taught to control the distance, and not let the shove happen. I am being totaly serious here... do you teach students to react to the shove after or before contact?
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

Let me quote the LTKKA manual:

"1. Standing with your feet together, as your opponent pushes you on the chest with his left hand, step back with your left foot...."

I'd also note that it simply isn't realistic for the considerable majority of us to assume that we're always going to be able to avoid getting grabbed or shoved.

In other words, I teach students to let them push you into breaking their arm. See also Bow of Compulsion and Circling Windmills.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Let me quote the LTKKA manual:

"1. Standing with your feet together, as your opponent pushes you on the chest with his left hand, step back with your left foot...."

I'd also note that it simply isn't realistic for the considerable majority of us to assume that we're always going to be able to avoid getting grabbed or shoved.

In other words, I teach students to let them push you into breaking their arm. See also Bow of Compulsion and Circling Windmills.

If its a hard shove or a striking push, your right side would be jolted to the rear and you would not be pulling off Snapping Twig. You have to have some level of awareness and control here.
Sean

 

[Brother John]

We were taught to control the distance, and not let the shove happen. I am being totaly serious here... do you teach students to react to the shove after or before contact?
Sean

I see this as different techniques to back each other up.
1st the hand is coming toward you... do you wait to see if it's a shove, a grab or a punch? no...you act on it there.
BUT: What if they DO grap you....
then you have the vocabulary from other techniques...like snapping twig, to help at this stage. That's why we have techiques that teach us what to do Once we have been grabbed. I'd hope that a good martial artist, under most circumstances... could react to that hand coming toward them.
BUT...no guarantees. Thus we need to know what to do once their hand makes it to the grab.
Each technique teaches a lesson, it might not be the ideal (Letting someone get their hand close enough to you that you get pushed/shoved)...but it's possible and even probable that it could happen that way. Thus the lesson of Snapping Twig and techs like it. Back-up. Often the "what if" of one technique IS another technique already in our curriculum. MOST often, I think.
Just something to think about.
Your Brother
John

 

[Seabrook]

Idealy you would wait for the grab. Why, I don't know.
Sean

What??? Wait for someone to grab you? I wouldn't recommend this at all. Ideally, you should never let an aggressor come within immediate striking distance of you since action is typically faster than reaction. If you were to wait for someone to grab you, what's to say that couldn't have been a punch?

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Touch Of Death]

What??? Wait for someone to grab you? I wouldn't recommend this at all. Ideally, you should never let an aggressor come within immediate striking distance of you since action is typically faster than reaction. If you were to wait for someone to grab you, what's to say that couldn't have been a punch?

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Sorry, ideal is ideal (see the manual), but your what ifs sound interesting.
Sean

 

[Seabrook]

If its a hard shove or a striking push, your right side would be jolted to the rear and you would not be pulling off Snapping Twig. You have to have some level of awareness and control here.
Sean

But the idea on Snapping Twig is to take an angle of least resistance as the opponent pushes you.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Brother John]

It's not a matter of 'waiting' for a grab...
it's simply teaching a lesson on what could be done once a grab does happen, which is very probable..therefore we train for it.

Your Brother
John

 

[Seabrook]

Sorry, ideal is ideal (see the manual), but your what ifs sound interesting.
Sean

Hi Sean,

What I was trying to state was that, yes, Delayed Sword is taught for a grab, but in no way should we wait for the grab to occur on the street before reacting.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com