UC Davis 2.0

[Josh Oakley]

Alright, so I feel strongly that the incidents at UC Davis should be analyzed in depth, because they will give us a deeper understanding of how such incidents form and develop, mob mentality, The Blame Game, proper use of force, and a great many other things.

What this thread IS about:
-The reasons behind the UC Davis protests in the first place.
-The events leading up to the pepper spray incident.
-The pepper spray incident, its legality or lack thereof, and its appropriateness or lack thereof.
-The fallout and subsequent reactions of the various parties involved in the incident.
-Videos and articles (especially first hand accounts) pertaining to the above lines.

What this thread is NOT about:
-The Occupy movement as a whole. There is already a thread for that. This is SPECIFICALLY about UC DAVIS.
-Who is the Bad Guy in all this. If we look at things reasonably, everyone involved in this incident was trying to act with the best of intentions (Yes, even the Occupiers, Yes, even the chancellor, YES, even the cops)
- Any pictures built off of the Pepper Spray men's. They detract from the conversation. They don't add to it.

THINGS TO SERIOUSLY CONSIDER BEFORE POSTING:
-Your fellow martialtalker is not your enemy, and should be treated with respect.
- YOUR FELLOW MARTIALTALKER IS NOT YOUR ENEMY AND SHOULD BE TREATED WITH RESPECT!!!
- You can guarantee the mods up to and including the Gawd Emperor will be watching this thread very closely, ready to lock the thread without the slightest bit of hesitation. They very well may be sharpening their mighty banhammers as I type this.

So without further adieu, let's try this again. You put down your rock, i'll put down my sword, and we'll try and kill eachother like civilized people. Battle of wits. To the death. Any sicilians on this board?

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[Josh Oakley]

So here is the first video, showing the students moving the tents (not taking them down as was claimed in verious places on the internet, and you can see that the tents remain, in the film). It also shows the arrival of the police.

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[Makalakumu]

When is it okay to disobey orders from the police?

 

[Josh Oakley]

In this video, you see the crowd circling the police and locking arms. This act is specifically meant to block them in. They make this clear by chanting "if you let them go, we will let you leave". There are also more colorful chants as well.

You also see Lt. john Pike informing the seated line that they will have to use force if they will not get up and go peacefully. The first time he does this, he informes each person individually and makes sure they understand. The second time, he addresses one member as a representative of the group.

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[Josh Oakley]

When is it okay to disobey orders from the police?

When the orders are illegal.

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[Josh Oakley]

When is it okay to disobey orders from the police?

Or when they are extremely immoral or unethical. Neither was the case in this incident.

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[Josh Oakley]

This is the final video, which shows the students being pepper sprayed, and arrested, and finally shows the police being granted permission from the student blockade to leave.
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[Josh Oakley]

This is a video from 11/15/11-- three days before the incident. it shows the reason the Occupy movement at Davis formed- namely tuition hikes, and the use of batons at UC Berkeley. It also has a great many teacher interviews.

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[Josh Oakley]

This is a video of protest, march, and the beginning of a general assembly.


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[Makalakumu]

When the orders are illegal.

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Does this apply in all cases?

 

[Makalakumu]

Or when they are extremely immoral or unethical. Neither was the case in this incident.

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If you consider what the OWS stands for as a whole, then that is up for debate.

Let's put it this way, if we reduce this down to a separate, local, phenomenon, blocking sidewalks and ignoring police orders is way over the top. When put into the bigger picture of what this is all about, it suddenly starts to make a little more sense. It's all a matter of how you choose to look at it.

At any rate, here are some important questions to consider.

How would you know what the UC Davis protesters believed? Were you there? Did you ask them?

Did you know that pictures and videos can be taken out of context to show something that may or may not be accurate?

Might what you be seeing fall into that category?

Lastly, why do you want to reduce this to a separate and local phenomenon? Do the protesters think they are part of a separate and local phenomenon?

 

[Josh Oakley]

The protest and march ultimately led to Mrak Hall, which was to be both their first general assembly and an occupation of the building. For the most part it is not bothersome. Even the comment at the end when they say the board of regeants are right to fear them. I strongly stand by the statement, "people should not be afraid of their governments; governments should be afraid of theor people".

However, pay attention to the statement Joshua Clover makes:

The law doesn't mean s$&*. They don't care about you. They'll get done what needs to get done, and we're going to have to figure out what we are going to do about it. Right now... we're the law.

Now go back and watch the interview of protesters from earlier that day. Most of the interviews, I honestly believe, are peaceful calls to civic action. However, Mr. Clover's sounds a good deal less than peaceful.

INTERVIEWER: To what extent would you go to see change happen with this whole movement?
JOSHUA CLOVER: Oh, there's only some things you can say on camera. I've certainly been arrested before on this campus as part of a protest at Mrak Hall. I do think that dire times call for serious responses. I think that people are starting to organize around responses that are not purely rhetorical, or do not purely involve taking a position, but involve actually taking action, putting your body in a place where thongs need to be done, and I think we should all commit to doing that."

Frankly, these statements are disconcerting, when taken together. They may be referring to non-violent restistance, but they are by no means peaceful.

The prior protest he refers to happened in 2009. Here is a video from that protest:

There was another protest on March 4, 2011 where students were actively blocking the roads. This lead to police pushing back the crowd, who continued to resist, until policed fired rubber pellets and used "pepper spray". That is what the video calls it, but I am fairly certain it is CS gas, which sucks a lot more, an I speak from experience, having been the recipient of both. Here is the video:

These protests establish a history that certainly is background for the demeanor of both police and protesters in 2011, though there was no public outcry either of those years. Those years weren't subject to the rhetoric of "police brutality", however, nor were they aligned with the Occupy movement.

Incidents like those at UC Davis in 2011 don't just happen. They are a result of number of influences boiling over. Honestly, I think the students have a legitimate beef on both primary reasons for protest: tuition hikes and the agressive police response at UC Berkeley.

However, their tactics for the last three years, predating the Occupy movement, have been to intentionally disobey the law. Mixed in now with the rhetoric of revolution supplied by the occupy movement, the possibility for REAL disaster looms close.

I don't buy that this movement is purely disorganized, especially in regards to UC Davis (and let's please KEEP things on regards to UC Davis please). When I hear statements from people like Joshua Clover and Nathan Brown, already leaders in the campus community (and in Joshua's case for good reason-- Google him), I stongly suspect a core group of leaders acting with a definite agenda. Listening to Joshua Clover, I suspect there will be blood.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Does this apply in all cases?

Or when they are extremely immoral or unethical. Neither was the case in this incident.

This.

 

[Makalakumu]

Do the UC Davis protesters consider themselves as part of the Occupy movement? Do you think the Occupy movement, as a whole, stands for something that is worth breaking the law over?

 

[Josh Oakley]

If you consider what the OWS stands for as a whole, then that is up for debate.

On this let's agree to disagree, for the purposes of this thread, and duke it out over this point on a different thread dedicated to such a topic.

Let's put it this way, if we reduce this down to a separate, local, phenomenon, blocking sidewalks and ignoring police orders is way over the top. When put into the bigger picture of what this is all about, it suddenly starts to make a little more sense. It's all a matter of how you choose to look at it.

I agree, but likely for different reasons. The UC Davis community has a history of such tactics that predate the Occupy movement, as I have shown in previous posts.

How would you know what the UC Davis protesters believed? Were you there? Did you ask them?

No, and I assume neither were you. However, there is quite a lot of coverage for this event, both from the media and from the students themselves. This is why I have watched as much coverage as I can, to get as much perspective as possible.

However, I would absolutely LOVE for someone who was there, ideally a protester AND a policeman, to come on and tell theory sides of the story. Short of that, we work with what we have.

Did you know that pictures and videos can be taken out of context to show something that may or may not be accurate?

Yes, and I have made the point myself. That is why I am posting as much video as possible. The first three videos l posted, for instance, are very straightforward: taped by a student, unmodified, uncut, unedited. I can say with a high degree of confidence that those videos are reliable.

Might what you be seeing fall into that category?

Perhaps, but not likely. This is why I chose videos from student news groups on that campus and individual student videos. Not FOX, not MSNBC, not CNN. And for the very reason that those sources likely WOULD be slanted. If there is any slant here, it is for the students, since the videos are by THE STUDENTS.

Lastly, why do you want to reduce this to a separate and local phenomenon? Do the protesters think they are part of a separate and local phenomenon?

Multiple reasons:
1. If we keep it focused on this specifically, we can discuss in more and finer detail what went on at UC Davis.

2. I recognize the Law of Raspberry Jam: the wider you spread it, the thinner it gets. I aim to dig DEEP on this topic. The broader you spread the pool of inquiry in ANY subject, the shallower the waters. Don't we already have enough threads covering the broad movement?

3. The issues at UC Davis predate the Occupy movement. I have already shown that, and I think conclusively. But you are welcome to present evidence to the contrary.

4. The Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures at UC Davis are specific to UC Davis and predate the Occupy movement. Although the students now DO identify with the Occupy movement, and this Occupy movement is involved with Occupy movements in neighboring Occupy efforts (and I show that in the videos I posted, each local Occupy effort is different.

4. To better understand the whole, it is beneficial to unerstand the parts that make up the whole. I plan on treating other Occupy efforts with the same deep information gathering and analysis as I am currently treating UC Davis (especially Occupy Seattle and Occupy Tacoma, as I can personally attend both with ease. I wholeheartedly encourage you to go indepth with the Occupy efforts in Hawaii, as that will add to our community's understanding of the occupy movement as a whole... However, in another thread. I further encourage people in other cities to do the same... Again in their own thread.

6. Unlike you, I may very soon have to make a decision where I stand, assuming my fears are realized and we are looking at the beginning stages of a revolt. I am a soldier, and it is not only possible that at some point the military becomes involved with this, it's bloody LIKELY. when I get to that point of no return, I intend to make my decision with as much information as possible, as I will have to live (or maybe even die) with the consequences of that decision.

5. Most importantly, I fear and respect the power and intentions of the Gawd Emperor, his mighty banhammer, and that of the moderators and supermoderadors. This is how I have set up THIS thread, and based on the fact that Bob was the first to thank me, I can safely assume I have his support for my approach. If you would like to take a different approach, feel free. But please do it on a different thread, if for nothing other than out of respect for a fellow martialtalker.

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[Josh Oakley]

Do the UC Davis protesters consider themselves as part of the Occupy movement? Do you think the Occupy movement, as a whole, stands for something that is worth breaking the law over?

To answer the first question, yes. I refuse to answer the second question on this thread. Feel free to ask me that question on a different thread, so we do not derail this one.

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[Josh Oakley]

This is coverage from UC Davis' student news the day before the pepper spray incident, after they had been evicted from Mrak Hall and moved the protest to the quad. Contained is footage of a campus officer (security? police?) Asking them if they understand what they were in violation of the law. I am still looking for footage showing this from the students' perspective. Can anyone help with that?

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[Josh Oakley]

This is a documentary filmed the night before the pepper spray incident on the views of protesters within the occupation of UC Davis. I think it does a fair job. Bob, Bill 1, Bill2, and those who stand in opposition to the protesters, I strongly encourage you watch the video.

Like I said at the beginning of this, I don't want to demonize any side involved, but to gain a fuller understanding of the situation.

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[Josh Oakley]

Just in case the YouTube does not cooperate with you, here is the video again. There is an obvious slant on them to the Occupy movement, so keep that in mind when you view them. I don't entirely agree with the views expressed in these videos. In fact, I disagree with about half of both videos simply based on my primary ethic of TANSTAAFL alone. But let's look at these to get an understanding of the mindset of students.

Also one of these videos has some bad music from a stringed instrument I don't recognize. Apologies in advance.

[video=vimeo;32336578]http://vimeo.com/32336578[/video]
[video=vimeo;32193643]http://vimeo.com/32193643[/video]

 

[Makalakumu]

To answer the first question, yes. I refuse to answer the second question on this thread. Feel free to ask me that question on a different thread, so we do not derail this one.

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First of all, thanks for posting the videos. It will be interesting to watch when I have more time.

Secondly, from my experience, I felt a sense of solidarity with the Occupy movement as a whole when I went to events. From what I've seen, there seems to be that at UC Davis as well.

Thirdly, I can't really converse about the pepper spray incident without putting into the larger context. Without the larger context, I don't think breaking the law is defensible. The students could have made their point about local issues more effectively in a regular demonstration.