Reflection on Weapons Carry

[JowGaWolf]

Fifth, the willingness to use a weapon to take a life. I suspect that most people who carry weapons have not thought a lot about what happens when you take a human life, or they don't think (or want to think) that the weapon they choose to carry might end a life, or that they would employ it in that manner.

It's not REAL until it's real. So unless it happens people don't think beyond step 1. This is people in general.

Most controversially, I will add that in my experience, there are some people who seem to have either what I would consider an unhealthy obsession with weapons or a tendency to engage in magical thinking about what weapons do for a person. I do not suspect that such people are going to gain any advantage at all if they carry weapons about for the purposes of self-defense

I agree with this. This is a big issue in the U.S. where some people think just because they have a gun that a bullet can't hit them.

If there's a guy randomly shooting someone in a school or movie theater, then one has to factor the bullets flying from that gun as being an issue. I remind people all the time that police with guns get shot and that's with training, a vest, and back up.
My gun shoots bullets, it doesn't stop them.

The U.S. has already been through a period where everyone had guns. We have a proven history of what happens when a society is saturated with guns. Many of our gun laws today are a result of too many guns in the past history of US society.

I don't have anything against guns but there has to be a balance. Extremes are never good. Having too much of anything will almost always be bad. I can't think of any extreme where having too much of a thing doesn't cause serious problems.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I will pose a question back to you Bill. If you are in a violent encounter where someone is attacking you with a weapon/tool. Would you want a weapon/tool to defend yourself? Imagine you are out and a person starts slashing at you or your family with a knife. Same scenario but you are out at dinner or a movie and someone comes in and starts shooting people. While these things probably won't happen they certainly could in our society. Do you want to deal with either situation empty handed? Does your self-defense training in the system you study address these potential problems adequately?

Certainly a weapon you own can be utilized against you but any good training system will address that and have counter measures for it. Take IRT for instance it is a weapon/tool based system and we have counters for someone trying to take our weapon a lot of time is spent on weapon/tool retention.

A good system will also recognize the need for legal training and understanding of the laws in their area. This is essential and every martial practitioner should consult with a lawyer so that they know the laws pertaining to personal protection in their area.

 

[Tgace]

I find the contradictory nature of the gun discussions is often find on a martial arts forum amusing.

How often I see this on martial arts boards.

"Guns are inferior to (x) because"...and then "guns need to be controlled because they are such effective killing instruments".

Which is it?

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

I find the contradictory nature of the gun discussions is often find on a martial arts forum amusing.

How often I see this on martial arts boards.

"Guns are inferior to (x) because"...and then "guns need to be controlled because they are such effective killing instruments".

Which is it?

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Guns are inferior to x? I mean I could find things they are inferior to depends on the job.

They are inferior to being educated and voting the right government in for the right reasons.

But It is not the gun it is the person. So in the hands of a trained responsible person it is a useful tool. In the hands of an idiot it is a liability and in the hands of a maniac it is a dangerous weapon.

Keep it out of the hands of the last two categories and your problem all but disappears.

 

[Tgace]

Guns are inferior to x? I mean I could find things they are inferior to depends on the job.

They are inferior to being educated and voting the right government in for the right reasons.

But It is not the gun it is the person. So in the hands of a trained responsible person it is a useful tool. In the hands of an idiot it is a liability and in the hands of a maniac it is a dangerous weapon.

Keep it out of the hands of the last two categories and your problem all but disappears.

X=knife, empty hands, etc. In reference to many discussions about guns in MA forums.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

X=knife, empty hands, etc. In reference to many discussions about guns in MA forums.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

That is because you only really have killing people as an option though. So f I get pizza slapped for example I have the choice of killing the guy or coppng it like a weaklng.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That is because you only really have killing people as an option though. So f I get pizza slapped for example I have the choice of killing the guy or coppng it like a weaklng.

You live in an oddly black and white world. I carry a gun, and despite your contention, I have lots of options other than those you mention. For example, I also carry a knife (as do the vast majority of those who carry a gun). Not to mention a little bit of experience at unarmed conflict resolution.

 

[KFMo01]

I don't carry a weapon.

I do constantly look for my weapon choices that are available at any given moment, wherever I am. There are many things that can be used as a weapon that are not typically thought of as such. I also train weekly on improvised weapons and am thankful for a teacher that has taught me to be comfortable picking up ordinary objects and using them as weapons.

I live where it is legal and socially acceptable to carry guns and large knives in the open. I am shocked at how few people seem to be actively protecting this liability they carry with them.

I am thankful we have the right to carry weapons, I just wish the community had a better understanding of the risks that come with carrying an easily accessible weapon like that.

I often wonder if having so many people packing deters mass shootings. It seems as if those kind of shooters pick easy targets that won't fire back.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I was in a conversation the other day with a fellow practitioner who doesn't carry as well. His reasoning is that weapons/tools are all around and if he needs one he will find one. I must say that while I admire this persons optimism there are times when a tool might not be handy during an altercation. I personally would rather have the option if I should need it to have a tool handy on my person. So I am carrying both lethal and non-lethal options all legally of course.

 

[Danny T]

I was in a conversation the other day with a fellow practitioner who doesn't carry as well. His reasoning is that weapons/tools are all around and if he needs one he will find one. I must say that while I admire this persons optimism there are times when a tool might not be handy during an altercation. I personally would rather have the option if I should need it to have a tool handy on my person. So I am carrying both lethal and non-lethal options all legally of course.

I have fire extinguishers in my home in several places as well as in my vehicles. I also have several extinguishers of opportunity such as towels, flour, water, pot lids, blankets... but still have those fire extinguishers. Why because that is what they are designed specifically for and nothing else is quite as effective in many different fire scenarios.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

All gun discussion remind me this clip - You have one. I have one too. No big deal, let's just move on.

 

[punisher73]

I agree with Bill on his points. Especially, his view on screwdrivers and other things carried as a weapon. In Michigan, there is a law specifically that deals with "intent to go armed" and includes "dangerous implement". If your job requires you to be using a screwdriver most of the time, you might get by with having one in a random pants pocket. If you don't, it is going to be very hard to get someone to believe your story that you just happened to be carrying around the screwdriver. It might be easier to pull of, a nice metal ink pen to carry around. BUT, I would not buy one of those "tactical pens" that look like a weapon that can write. They are designed as a weapon and would be charged as such.

As to the other points. If you are carrying a weapon, you now know that every fight you are in, is an armed encounter. You do have to consider your own weapon and taking care of it. Lots of research out there about people pulling a weapon and not intending to use it and getting themselves hurt or having the weapon used against them.

The other factor, as some have pointed out, is where to carry your weapons. A woman who keeps pepper spray in her purse is not going to be able to get to it effectively to use and if she is focusing on that to save her is at an even bigger disadvantage. Same thing with guys who carry in an ankle holster. How much time is spent quickly drawing the weapon. I have seen some that carry in an ankle holster that wouldn't even be able to get to the holster without a warm up first. LOL

 

[Sapphire]

I agree with Bill on his points. Especially, his view on screwdrivers and other things carried as a weapon. In Michigan, there is a law specifically that deals with "intent to go armed" and includes "dangerous implement". If your job requires you to be using a screwdriver most of the time, you might get by with having one in a random pants pocket. If you don't, it is going to be very hard to get someone to believe your story that you just happened to be carrying around the screwdriver. It might be easier to pull of, a nice metal ink pen to carry around. BUT, I would not buy one of those "tactical pens" that look like a weapon that can write. They are designed as a weapon and would be charged as such.

As to the other points. If you are carrying a weapon, you now know that every fight you are in, is an armed encounter. You do have to consider your own weapon and taking care of it. Lots of research out there about people pulling a weapon and not intending to use it and getting themselves hurt or having the weapon used against them.

The other factor, as some have pointed out, is where to carry your weapons. A woman who keeps pepper spray in her purse is not going to be able to get to it effectively to use and if she is focusing on that to save her is at an even bigger disadvantage. Same thing with guys who carry in an ankle holster. How much time is spent quickly drawing the weapon. I have seen some that carry in an ankle holster that wouldn't even be able to get to the holster without a warm up first. LOL

Very accurate. Just like someone once told me "if you're the type to keep a baseball bat in your car, keep a glove and ball in it as well." The intent is what matters every time. Also, I have a tactical pen that barely stays put together. Useless if you ask me, and the guy gave it to me even though he was selling them for $30. How much is it really worth, you know?

Carrying a weapon is why I never talk about the actual fight when anyone asks me about self defense. I'm not an instructor and I don't plan to teach anyone besides my family. If someone asks me about self defense all I talk to them about is the chance of being injured, the consequences of being on the wrong side of the law, BUT I also talk about WHY someone would get into a fight in the first place.

 

[iluvmycam]

OP...yes, many truths in your post.. But, being in my 60's with so-so health I'm not going to get into a grappling match with anyone on the street. I may try to blind them with a tactical light or give them a dose of Tobasco as a minimum deterrent.

If things escalate, I also have a collapsible airweight baton and tactical folder if I am not carrying a snubnose. The tactical folder or snub is used to destroy an attackers arm that happens to give me the chokehold. Although I'd hate to let the snub off so close to my ear, but shooting with a twisted wrist to fire behind me can be a problem. When your getting choked out there is not much time to play games.

I love weapons...they are the great equalizer for us that are not as highly skilled in marital arts or have health issues. Can you imagine the shock for the grappler that puts on the choke only to have their elbow blown off? I do use .38 special and not the big 357 mag loads. They are hell to shoot from a lightweight snub.

I'd advise you to always carry weapons when legal to do so. If you like to test your skills with your hands, fine. It is still good to carry some insurance.

 

[iluvmycam]

One thing I forgot to say...

When your wrapped up by someone it can be dangerous to shoot them and you end up shooting yourself. In the scenario I talked about in my previous post, another area to shoot is the thighs of the attacker if they are choking you on the ground. Just gotta be careful you don't end up shooting yourself by mistake or from the bullet exiting them and entering you.

 

[Paul_D]

If you are in a violent encounter where someone is attacking you with a weapon/tool. Would you want a weapon/tool to defend yourself? Imagine you are out and a person starts slashing at you or your family with a knife. Do you want to deal with either situation empty handed?

OK, ignoring the gun scenario as I am in the UK, and taking the knife (or indeed any other sharp or bludgeoning weapon scenario) for me the answer to this would be yes, I would want to deal with it empty handed.

As I am not permitted by law to carry a weapon, or an everyday object modified to be a weapon, or indeed a an everyday object which hasn’t been modified (if it is my intention to use it as a weapon) then I have never done any weapons training, as for me there is little point. I am therefore, untrained in using weapons. Why therefore, if my life depended on it, would I abandon my skill set (empty hand) and decide to try and defend myself (and others) using a weapon in which I have no training or skill?

The other factor, which is often over looked, is that that fact that someone has armed themselves with a knife does not change my objective. My objective remains to either escape, to incapacitate them. People will of course counter with “but a knife can kill you” yes it can, but so can a single punch. Regardless, my objective and the way I achieve it remains the same.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Paul,

I have to say that your laws are different in the UK and I feel for you. Most of the friends I have in the UK that train and they work with tools as well. Most of them carry a pen that they could use in a pinch or some other common everyday item. I will be honest with you, if you have to defend yourself empty handed versus a knife I don't like your chances. Particularly since you do not train with tools. You might want to invest some time with another system that specializes training with weapons to round out your skill set. You could look at the FMA's for this. If you understand the characteristics of a weapon you may place yourself in a better position to defend against one.

 

[Mephisto]

Some simple thoughts that have been peculating in my punkin haid for some time now...especially as I am embarking on a new set of martial arts weapons training. I do enjoy weapons and training with them.

One thinks of a weapon as an advantage in a self-defense situation, and to be sure, it is. But I believe that there are also disadvantages involved in weapons carry.

First, if one has a weapon, one must protect that weapon from being taken away and used against one. Whether it is a gun, a knife, a bludgeon, or whatever; nearly any weapon that one can carry can be used against one if it is seized by an aggressor.

Second, nearly all weapons one might carry could potentially be considered capable of inflicting deadly force, at least in legal terms and in the USA (I do not know the laws of every jurisdiction, I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, etc). However, it is my belief and understanding that one may only legally resort to deadly force when one is authorized to do so; for example when legitimately in fear of one's life.

Third, a weapon, as many here know but some may not, is not a magic wand. One does not pull it out, wave it around, and things get better. In general, once a weapon is brandished, the chances that it will have to be used become much, much, higher. In other words, even if a given confrontation was not life-threatening, by introducing a weapon, now it is. And that may not be a good idea, depending on the circumstances.

Fourth, weapons in general require proficiency to be anything other than a dangerous detriment to the person carrying them. A knife, a gun, even a taser or pepper spray. One gains little advantage from depositing them in a purse or glove box or carrying them in a pocket if one has no particular experience using them. As a former Military Policeman, we took part in extensive training with our weapons, including spraying each other directly in the face with Mace (before pepper spray). We did our best to become and remain proficient with our weapons, and we used them constantly in self-defense situations (Marines in garrison, what can you expect?). I do not think most civilians practice to obtain that level of proficiency.

Fifth, the willingness to use a weapon to take a life. I suspect that most people who carry weapons have not thought a lot about what happens when you take a human life, or they don't think (or want to think) that the weapon they choose to carry might end a life, or that they would employ it in that manner.

I am not trying to say that one should not defend one's life with deadly force if the need arises. I am saying that I don't think many people have through through what it means to do so. To intentionally end a human life is more than pulling a trigger. There will be blood, brains, fecal matter, urine, vomit, and the general chaos that ensues after such an event. Even if justified in killing a human being, there will police, questions, lawyers, and expenses. There will almost always be emotion and financial costs. Still better than being dead oneself, true. But I would hope that no one seriously thinks they can blow away a mugger (for example) and tell the cops what happened and that's that, end of story. Your life will change, forever, starting at that moment, and in many ways not for the better, other than the major upside of still being alive.

I can well imagine a scenario where a person becomes involved in a dispute which becomes physical. Given our current times, perhaps a road rage incident or a fight over a parking spot or some such thing. Words are exchanged, neither party backs down, someone throws a punch.

Now, if I am the person being punched, of course I will defend myself. But if I am carrying, say, a gun, now I have to worry that the person punching me will tackle me or knock me down and somehow gain possession of that gun. Now my focus it not just on defending myself, but also defending the gun. And if I defend my possession of that gun by drawing it, now the chances are much higher that I am going to end up using it, or having it used on me. My attention is divided, and my hand or hands may end up being occupied with the weapon itself, which is of no actual use to me until and unless I am obligated to take a life to save my own.

I will add a few more things.

It appears to me that there are many who seem to have a preoccupation with the notion of carrying weapons they can 'get away with' in terms of not having them considered to be weapons by law enforcement. In my opinion, this is dangerous thinking. I only worked in law enforcement for a short time and I only studied Criminal Justice in college for a few years, but I did manage to absorb some basic understanding that has served me well over the years. For example, it's not what the item is, it's how you use it. A screwdriver is a screwdriver, until it's used as a weapon and the person who was carrying it INTENDED to use it for that purpose. Then is it a deadly weapon. I'm sorry, there's no way around this. All the various items that companies make with the idea that they will be mistaken for innocuous items and not weapons, but which are intended to be employed as weapons, they won't pass muster if one actually purchases them with the intent to use them as weapons and then does so. There are no cheats that work. Sorry.

Most controversially, I will add that in my experience, there are some people who seem to have either what I would consider an unhealthy obsession with weapons or a tendency to engage in magical thinking about what weapons do for a person. I do not suspect that such people are going to gain any advantage at all if they carry weapons about for the purposes of self-defense.

That's all I have for now. Feel free to comment. I am not against weapons carry, I support the right to carry, I like firearms, and I of course support the right to defend oneself, even with deadly force, when and as required. I have no sympathy for criminals. I am merely trying to take a clear-eyed look at the reasons we carry, what we carry, how we carry, and whether or not that is always a good idea for general self-defense.

Great points! I try to address this sometimes with my FMA buddies who overly fetishize weapons, generally it's a lost cause. Some just don't understand that a case involving weapons use is not clear cut. If a guy tries to stab your wife of course you'll most likely be justified in using any weapon, but that's only one limited scenario and the gray areas encompass many more scenarios. That's why I don't think its a great idea to carry a $300 karambit or any expensive "tactical" weapon. Collect them if you like but be aware of the risks with using one. That's why I carry a knife purchased at a local sporting goods store that I could say I carry as a utility tool. If you want to carry a weapon use a gun.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Great points! I try to address this sometimes with my FMA buddies who overly fetishize weapons, generally it's a lost cause. Some just don't understand that a case involving weapons use is not clear cut. If a guy tries to stab your wife of course you'll most likely be justified in using any weapon, but that's only one limited scenario and the gray areas encompass many more scenarios. That's why I don't think its a great idea to carry a $300 karambit or any expensive "tactical" weapon. Collect them if you like but be aware of the risks with using one. That's why I carry a knife purchased at a local sporting goods store that I could say I carry as a utility tool. If you want to carry a weapon use a gun.

Or, as has been pointed out repeatedly... both. My knife (most commonly a Benchmade Auto Stryker) sits in my right front pocket. My handgun (most commonly a Glock 19) sits behind my right hip, with spare magazines on the left. I'm unlikely to use either as a weapon, though the knife gets used a lot for opening mail and other mundane chores.

 

[Mephisto]

Or, as has been pointed out repeatedly... both. My knife (most commonly a Benchmade Auto Stryker) sits in my right front pocket. My handgun (most commonly a Glock 19) sits behind my right hip, with spare magazines on the left. I'm unlikely to use either as a weapon, though the knife gets used a lot for opening mail and other mundane chores.

If that knife fits the bill as a utility weapon than a jury just might buy it. But then again if you've got a gun it's not likely you'd use the knife for self defense. Your personal weapons carry choices are irrelevant and we're dealing with a lot of hypotheticals here. Again I'm not talking about a clear case of self defense, I'm referring to the gray areas. Look at the case of the atienza Kali guy (Umalii believe was his name) in the trial it was noted that he had a specialized knife and it worked against him. Did it seal his fate? Maybe not, but it was a contributing factor to his imprisonment. My point and I think the point of the op is that your choice of weapon could be damning in a court case, especially if you're choosing to carry said weapon as a less than lethal option.