Ustw..... Ata......

[Spud]

I also earned my first Dan in ATA (circa 1993) Rejoined last year, but found some changes I didn’t care for (another post perhaps). If I’m not mistaken an ATA instructor can now be certified in Judo by attending a weekend seminar. Not sure about Krav Maga. The variety may be interesting, but when the Association claims to certify instructors in a totally different MA, I have reservations.

I have great respect for many aspects of the ATA program, but feel they've lost some focus over the last decade.

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Ah, but in actuality, they don't get certified in the knowledge, they get certified to teach it. They learn as they go along, and also by others. Even Instructors who have background in Judo/Jujitsu/Grappling(my instructors teach it) can't teach without certificate proof. I mean, yeah they can teach it, but if they get caught without credentials...

No they are not certified in judo, but to teach it. It's the same with weapons, Tai Chi, and all. They also get books and such to teach it. They get help from other instructors. And it's not to be taught as the main course, but as a side thing. But they aren't certified to teach another martial art, only incorporate it into the one they are teaching. And it's only basic at that. No strikes for grappling. The instructors get progressively better.

My instructor couldn't teach grappling until October when he got certified, but he'd messed around with grappling long before then. Now he can teach it. You need to be skilled to teach it, otherwise you wasted money on the certification. I mean, sure you can teach it, but why teach something you don't know? That's why there are alot of areas of certification and you aren't encouraged to give it your all when teaching. You need to practice. Remember, the instructor needs to be better than the student, otherwise the student will think himself better and stop learning.

:asian:

 

[Spud]

We seem to have different ideas on what is adequate certification to instruct outside TKD. I respect that ATA is attempting to provide a uniform but varied curriculum. However, my reservations still stand on the idea of two days training providing adequate background to instruct on a specific art, be it Judo, grappling, Krav Maga etc.

Think of an Aikido dojo offering/marketing their students Taekwondo instruction based on the instructor receiving 20 hours of training.

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Yes, I understand that and agree, but the certification process is also certification in learning. It's like becoming an instructor in ATA. You don't just automatically become an instructor, it takes 2-3 years or more. Same thing with the certification. You may get your certificate, but you've still go to practice, practice and learn. I don't think you should get certified in an area where you have never touched, though. My instructors took some grappling classes at the college and have other inter MA contact. I don't think it's a good idea to get certified in something you haven't had your hand in yet.


To teach it is a whole other thing. The thing is, the large majority of people in your class are not going to know much about, for instance, grappling. Therefore, you can teach them what you know, assuming you can teach it because you have practiced. Then you continually learn more. It's not a matter of teaching it on a regular basis. It's more of a free time/fun thing rather than actually teaching a grappling class. That's what the certification is for. Now your point about teaching after only a 2 day certification...yeah, I don't think that's smart. Like I said, you need to have had experience. That's what I was saying. If you know a little bit, you can share that bit and learn more.

On another note, you are not certified to teach outside of ATA with that certification. You are only allowed to teach it in an ATA school Outside, it means nothing due to the fact that it is ATA associated only. Therefore, you can only teach it with ATA sanctioned material. And it's not a full course. It's no where near as detailed as a true grappling course. It's just the icing on the cake and basics, not teaching a full course of grappling.

:asian:

 

[Marginal]

I do not know the details or if this is true. From what you have just told me and from what I know about how to start an ATA school and the legal/business side of things I would have to say that the ATA would be right and the instructor was being stupid on how he went about running his school. But, neither of us knows what exactly happened. It is wrong of me to accuse the instructor of being wrong or wrong of someone to accuse the ATA of being wrong. We don't have all the facts.

The ATA was trying to take away the guy's house. I don't care if he was teaching people that punches should be done in a feather duster motion, there's no justifiable reason for taking that kind of action except powermongering.

 

[MichiganTKD]

In my opinion, teaching a class or starting an organization is like starting a family. In the beginning, you must establish rules, teach what is expected of each member, and provide teaching and guidance. Your word is law. Why? Because your students, like young children, do not understand. They are babies. They must be taught everything. However, much like young adults who are more capable of making their own decisions, as your students advance and get higher ranking, they must be allowed to make more of their own decisions.
When our GM first came to America, his word was absolute. However, 30 years later, each of the Instructors (4 Dan and up) is allowed more leeway in how they teach. They are not allowed to change technique or form, but they are allowed more freedom in how to conduct their classes.
Also, none of our Instructors has incorporated grappling, weapons, other styles, or changed the etiquette. Tae Kwon Do is composed of certain techniques and principles that define it. Is it useful to know some of these techniques? Sure, but if you are teaching grappling, BJJ, weapons, Hapkido, and FMA as part of your curriculum, then it's not Tae Kwon Do. If my students are paying X dollars per month expecting to learn TKD, I'm not going to teach them grappling. They will get confused.

 

[Fortis]

I don't know about students being "confused" Michigan. I take TKD under WTF at a fairly traditional Dojang. However, when they introduce other non-TKD techniques into the Self Defense portion of class, it doesn't seem to be confusing the class. We know what it's for and it helps when you're put into a situation that can't be dealt with using TKD-only techniques. They mostly incorporate parts of TKD anyway so it's just another tool on your belt. I'm all for traditionalist methods, but I understand when it makes sense to operate outside the box sometimes.

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Well see, we do TKD. Don't tell me that we aren't TKD. See what I'm saying is that ATA TKD is TKD. We teach the full cirriculum of TKD...Jointlocks, Poomse, self defense, etc. That's all that's required of your school, only we have a weapons system added on by protech(single stick, bo staff, and chucks). Other than that, you don't have to know anything else.

But on the sidelines you can get more for your money. Your students pay expecting to only get TKD. But you give them full TKD courses and on the side extra experience from other MA. We do TKD classes all week, but some nights we might add some grappling or something else. In Master Club, we work with the jahng Bang(bo staff). So, basically, we are not as limited as TKD schools that only teach TKD. We offer more than they can. I'm not comparing to other organizations like WTF, ITF, USTU, USTW, etc. I'm just saying we have a great TKD cirriculum and all.

Most people think that people who sign up are signing up for the simple fact of the saying that ATA is a McDojo. It's not. Ok, well depending on who is the Instructor. ALWAYS. I mean, you been to one ATA school that's a McDojo, then all of them are a McDojo's. BAH! Not true. Anyways, the reason why people sign up in ATA, aside from the kid thing and all is that they get more than more orgs are gonna give them. I'm not saying they are better, but some orgs only offer that MA and nothing else. I just enjoy ATA because I can go at it at my own pace, which is fast and grapple all I want. I love grappling, so much fun.

:asian:

P.S. It's great that you want traditional TKD, but that won't survive that long in this world. You need more than simple TKD knowledge. One art always has advantages and disadvantages. I love TKD, but I also want to learn how not to get my butt kicked when on the ground and also I want to have fun with other types of MA and not have to pay X amount of bucks a month so I can go to all these MA schools just to get 3 different types of MA when I can get the full experience of TKD and get the basics of other MA and build on them.

 

[Marginal]

P.S. It's great that you want traditional TKD, but that won't survive that long in this world. You need more than simple TKD knowledge.

You really need to stop saying this because uh, well, it's simply not true. Traditionalism isn't really dying, so there goes your oft favored claim that TKD schools need to waste time on useless flash or else they're gonna die out. It's nonsense.

Then it's kinda iffy what you mean in respect to what traditional TKD is. A lot of the hosinsul I've learned could be classified under Hapkido, combat HKD, judo, akkido etc. That's not how they're presented however. They're simply self defense moves. So your "progressive" cirriculum doesn't sound like it's really distancing itself from traditional TKD training as self defense (meaning grappling etc) has always been part of the traditional TKD format.

Either way, it's silly to claim that these fragments add up the seperate arts eventually. I learn a gun disarm, so I'm well on my way to knowing Krav Maga? No. It may make you a bit better rounded, but you can in no way claim that you're a judo expert, that you know judo etc just because you grapple once or twice a month.

 

[ShaolinWolf]

I never said I was a judo expert, far from it, bucko. I don't know how else to put it. YOU DON'T GET CERTIFIED TO KNOW ANY OTHER MA; YOU ONLY GET CERTIFIED TO TEACH YOUR STUDENTS A LITTLE MORE THAN TKD. Gosh, you can't teach them any other MA. I say one thing and everyone thinks that you automatically are certified to teach an MA in 2 days and they laugh at you. I think of it being like 1/20th of what you learn. It doesn't even hardly count unless you stick with the whole TKD past black belt and further. I mess around with grappling with friends at the dojang late at night because we only get taught grappling here and there. I am in no way nor did I say I was an expert in grappling. You can't become an expert(btw, I do more grappling that once or twice a month, thank you) with just learning it in a year of maybe a little practice without full instruction.

What I mean by traditional TKD is what most of the schools around here cal traditional TKD which isn't much. I've studied the history and all that about TKD and I know the concepts of HKD mixed with TKD. I know all that your saying, Marginal. I'm just saying that when you talk to most people, TKD?! MAN THAT'S A WIMPY MA. So, you have explain to them that there more to it than just a sport. I think it's great that your TKD school has HKD and gun self defense and all that incorporated into your cirriculum. I'm talking about plenty of the schools that have JUST TKD, where they think tkd is simple tkd self-defense, poomse, sparring, and a little bit more. That's what I'm talking about.

The other thing I mean is that all MA's have advantages and disadvantages. I like TKD, traditionally, for all of it's aspect, but most people don't understand that. They seem to think it's a sport and no more than that. That's all I'm saying. I like Tradition all the way, but I also have an interest in several other MA and I think its a bonus to learn the basics of other MA and build on from there. That all alongside a ful TKD cirriculum.
I didn't mean to fluster ya. I don't like it when people tell me all that junk about TKD either. I'm there right with ya. Its just that TKD traditionally is being taken advantage of. So many schools around me you could walk into and laugh and nobody would have a clue why your laughing and then they'd figure it out and cry. LOL. Not that bad, but to that point. Most of them make it into a sport and nothing deeper. That's what stinks. I'm not saying ATA is the only TKD school, because I've been to a few TKD schools that were dead on traditionalists and they were privately owned. I wouldn't want to attack any of those guys.

The only point I'm trying to make is the whole thing about instructors and how they teach. So many are in it for the money, and you don't get enough out of it. But I wasn't throwing this at you personally. I've always been fascinated by TKD, but have had bad experiences with the schools do to the fact TKD is everywhere and every school other than the one I'm at has been a joke. One even ran off with everyone's money(it was after I quit) because they went bankrupt and nobody in town has heard from them since. And that doesn't make TKD bad in itself. I know there are a TON of great TKD schools out there. I didn't even mean to say anything about TKD schools gone bad.

Anyways, yeah.

:asian:

P.S. I don't believe TKD schools need to use flash or they are gonna die out. I think it's quit the opposite actually. And TKD is supposed to be a bit flashy in some parts. That's what's neat about doing TKD is some of the flashy kicks, but I totally understand it being 100% more than that.

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Hey, NW Boiler, you said you have personal sessions with M.K. Lee? That isso cool. How's his training? Does he teach you all the time or just the personal sessions?


:asian:

 

[MichiganTKD]

You really need to stop saying this because uh, well, it's simply not true. Traditionalism isn't really dying, so there goes your oft favored claim that TKD schools need to waste time on useless flash or else they're gonna die out. It's nonsense.

Then it's kinda iffy what you mean in respect to what traditional TKD is. A lot of the hosinsul I've learned could be classified under Hapkido, combat HKD, judo, akkido etc. That's not how they're presented however. They're simply self defense moves. So your "progressive" cirriculum doesn't sound like it's really distancing itself from traditional TKD training as self defense (meaning grappling etc) has always been part of the traditional TKD format.

Either way, it's silly to claim that these fragments add up the seperate arts eventually. I learn a gun disarm, so I'm well on my way to knowing Krav Maga? No. It may make you a bit better rounded, but you can in no way claim that you're a judo expert, that you know judo etc just because you grapple once or twice a month.

Good point Marginal.

I find it interesting that the ones who emphasize flash or trying to learn as much from other styles as they can (MMA) denigrate traditional MA. I never said "Don't learn grappling", I said if you teach Tae Kwon Do, you should not make it an official part of your curriculum. It is perfectly acceptable to to teach elements of other styles to higher levels to show them what to watch out for and how a TKD technique might be used to break out. It is also acceptable for BB members who are practicing with each other as partners to compare techniques and experiment. However, a Tae Kwon Do school is just that-Tae Kwon Do. If you want to practice BJJ, grappling, Hapkido, Kung Fu etc, quit TKD and join a different school.
Years ago, our GM brought in a judo teacher to teach his class for about 6 weeks in basic techniques. He was NOT incorporating judo into his class, he was having them learn some judo technique and what to expect from a qualified Instructor. His class was/is still Tae Kwon Do.

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Ah, well, nonetheless, my point is if its good for you do it the way you are taught. As for me, I like to learn TKD, but if I get the extra umph for my money, I'm gonna take. I mean why not? That's all I was trying to say. I didn't even mean anything that would offend you marginal and MichiganTKD. I agree with you guys, I'm just saying If they offer it, don't balk them and say, "I want strictly TKD!!!!". And I'll say it again: We are strictly TKD, Songahm Style. And each school has the option of teaching anything else they want.

 

[NW Boiler]

Hey, NW Boiler, you said you have personal sessions with M.K. Lee? That isso cool. How's his training? Does he teach you all the time or just the personal sessions? :asian:

Shaolin,

Master M.K. Lee (Mark Kaup Lee, Tempe, AZ), is a big reason for for me practicing TKD. Not only is he my instructor (even though I live in Washington) but he also a very close friend.

Master Lee teaches scheduled class daily at his dojang in Tempe as well as giving private sessions. Very talented and motivated Martial artist!

I train at a club in Renton WA and make monthly/bimonthly trips to Tempe to train with Master Lee. When I lived in Phoenix he was my primary instructor.

 

[ShaolinWolf]

AWESOME!!!!...Man, what an opportunity. I'm glad for you!


:asian:

 

[Shu2jack]

BLAH..... Tight control over everything. How is the art supposed to grow. How are you supposed to develop your own style. How are you supposed to practice other arts in the persuit of complete control in a fight no matter what position you and your opponent are in.

I meant tight control over how things are run. This preserves the integrity of the art and the schools in the organization. When I go to a tournament I can see 5 slightly different ways a single form can be preformed. Are they wrong? No, the forms have been adapted to that person's style, physical ability, mentality, etc. Especially black belt forms. The ATA does not take away from that or take away from the growth from the art, but the "basics" still have to be there and everyone must be on the same page or else we are not practicing the same art. In that sense tight control is a good thing. Just like how your instructor maintains tight control on what goes on in his school, our senior masters must maintain tight control on what goes on in the schools they are responsible for.

The ATA was trying to take away the guy's house. I don't care if he was teaching people that punches should be done in a feather duster motion, there's no justifiable reason for taking that kind of action except powermongering.

Legally that is his place of business. When filing for taxes, when audited, or what ever, his home and his place of business is the same. Is it more conveinent? Yes, less rent and utilities to pay. Is is it stupid? Yes. What if he got divorced and his wife got the house? What if someone got hurt there and the school was sued? Now his home is more closely conntected and in greater jepordy. Putting your eggs in one basket. By accepting the benifits of what he did he has to accept the risks. Did losing his house suck horribly? Yes, but unless they take away his place of business (which is his home) he is still free to practice his business. The ATA does not screw around when it comes to breaking the rules.


I also have to agree that "certifying" instructors in judo or what ever is a bad idea. Yes, it is just being certified TO TEACH it to students, but how can you teach something unless you have studied and practiced it for a long time? I sure as heck wouldn't let a white belt teach some TKD techinques to someone else after I trained them in it for two or three days. Even if that person is a black belt, they are still a "white belt" in that different style.

 

[ShaolinWolf]

I don't know how to make you understand this. Well, the only thing I can say is that you don't get certified to teach it in the way a judo instructor teaches it. It's more for fun. Yes, you learn it, but you don't exactly get taught anything but the basics. And what about the one's who have learned how to grapple and want certification, but aren't allowed to teach it in their school, even if they made it to a certain belt in judo/juijitsu? With all the coming of MMA, I don't think that just having one MA is the best thing. Whether you guys want to believe it or not, there is disadvantages to TKD. Yes, there are so many advantages, and believe me, I for one have NOTHING, NOTHING against TKD.

Again, if you have missed this, I take it and am in training to become an instructor. So, unless I'm just some nutcase that wasted alot of money for my dobok and instructor testing and all the other stuff I had to get and will have to get, I do believe TKD works. I just think, like everyone else has said, that having a little taste of this and that is great along with your own art. Yes, I'm all for tradition.

And as to the certification, you get certified, nothing more. You have to actually know how to teach it. It's not like once you get certified you change your cirriculum from TKD to Judo and then say you are now a JUDO school, MWUHAHAHA!!!! No, it doesn't work that way. sure you can get certified being unknowledgable, but what's the point? To teach something, you need SOME experience. And yes, I believe that in a way, giving out the certification is bad, but then there is this: The instructors learn constant techniques from higher ranking instructors and then teach those techs to the students. Also, They aren't teaching a full judo course.

The thing about getting certified for judo and tai chi is that ATA has a set standard cirriculum for those who want to teach grappling. Of course, the more experienced(YES, THERE ARE ALOT OF EXPERIENCED ATA GRAPPLERS OUT THERE, CONTRARY TO POPULAR BELIEF) instructors teach beyond what ATA wishes them to teach. It's basically the basics of grappling, like teaching a women's self defense class. It doesn't take a genius to get out of cetain holds and put another person in a hold. Ok, for some it doesn't. And also, only Black belts(I'm thinking it's instructors only) can get certified. No low rank color belts. Anyways, its not like the instructors just teach what they were just taught. They go over and over it with other instructors, or at least they are supposed to. What they learn is practiced.

I think it's kind of getting pointless to argue about this because alot of Instructors have experience in grappling. Another thing: So, I guess if you go to a seminar and learn certain techniques, you shouldn't be allowed to teach them to your students? Come on! The judo/grappling that is taught is so far from a cirriculum of judo it's not funny. We don't even have a freakin' belt system. I don't see why you guys see it as not right. Think of it as self-defense in TKD. Is there a self-defense ranking system? Not really. Your belt depends on your skill. To learn tai chi, judo/grappling, etc., we just do it as an exploration, not as a thing so you can go out in public or to a judo school and say, "hey look at me, I am an expert grappler and can kick you all's cans."

There is no way that can happen, thus saying that it is pointless to get the certification is pointless. The certification means you are now ready to learn something as an instructor and you can teach what you learn as you go along.

:asian:

 

[ShaolinWolf]

On another note, I am in no way saying TKD is ineffective at all! I believe it is a great self-defense and a great art in itself, I just want outside of TKD too. I'd like to learn as much MA as I can. I want to stick with one art, but to learn of other things that are applicable to a situation makes sense too. I'm sticking with TKD for quite sometime. I like everything about it and I believe that in a self defense situation, I'd be able to defend myself alot better just because of the speed of sparring, and my self defense. That's what I attribute to TKD. I love the speed of sparring and the stamina I've gained from TKD. I have a constant stamina where all I need is a tiny break less than a minute and I'm just about fully rejuvenated. And it's all thanks to TKD. That's what I love about TKD, aside from everything else, being it's helped my flexibility(ok, it's only improved, I could do a split before I started. lol) If there is anything I can learn and get my hands on that is MA related, I'm gonna do it. Limiting yourself when you have the chance to get more knowledge for the same money you pay is not good at all. I love knowledge and stopping yourself from learning is no good. You only limit yourself. That's why I choose TKD and learn whatever techniques I can.

 

[Shu2jack]

How to make me understand this? ooooooooooookay.

Well, the only thing I can say is that you don't get certified to teach it in the way a judo instructor teaches it. It's more for fun. Yes, you learn it, but you don't exactly get taught anything but the basics. And what about the one's who have learned how to grapple and want certification, but aren't allowed to teach it in their school, even if they made it to a certain belt in judo/juijitsu? With all the coming of MMA, I don't think that just having one MA is the best thing. Whether you guys want to believe it or not, there is disadvantages to TKD. Yes, there are so many advantages, and believe me, I for one have NOTHING, NOTHING against TKD.

1) You talk about TKD having disadvantages (which I agree, there are), yet you say we don't teach it the way a judo instructor teaches it, it is "more for fun". How does that help us become better rounded martial artists? Especially for MMA. If you want to do it for fun that is cool, but if you want to seriously learn and teach grappling or whatever you need more than a weekend course. As you will learn as you become an instructor, it takes time to be able to fully understand and properly apply techinques. In order to teach them you need experience in applying them.
That is my main problem with the judo certification and such. They certify you before you get a chance to gain experience with the techniques. I do not believe in "See monkey, do monkey, show next monkey".

2) I may not have a rank in any other martial art, but I do know some grappling, PPCT, and other things. Am I certified? No. Why? I have not spent the time to solely practice those methods of fighting. Do I still teach what I know to my students? YES! I teach what I know and what works, but I always wish I have spent as much time practicing those systems as I have TKD because by not having as much experience with those things my techinical knowledge and execution of those techiques are not as sharp as my TKD. I can only imagine the skills of those who train only 3 days to get certified.

And as to the certification, you get certified, nothing more. You have to actually know how to teach it.

Knowing how to teach it requires more than just mimicking teachniques. You have to constantly train with them. You have to be able to apply them consistantly. You have to have a feeling for how much damage you can do with them which can only be gained by experience. Those camps do not require that. They require you "know" them and be able to preform them on a partner a few times. Then you get certified and pass it on to others. That is not knowledge, that is mimicking.

I could go on and on, but I will stop there. I have nothing against teaching students things outside of the normal TKD material. I do it all the time, but I do not pretend to be certified in the material. A black belt means you have only mastered the basics and that takes at least two years in the ATA.

I also agree TKD has it's weakness, but in order to fill in the gaps of our training we must seriously train in different areas and make it another part of our everyday training.

The certification means you are now ready to learn something as an instructor and you can teach what you learn as you go along.

I think this is where we are having our problem. If you teach something you better already know it very, very well. If not, you are only hurting students because you do not fully understand what you are teaching.

I mean this with all due respect, but I want you to take a orange belt. I want you to tell that orange belt to teach the techiques they learn to other students as they "go along" in rank. Even if you "certify" them (promote them to their next rank, thus saying they already have a solid grip of the material of their previous rank), the students they teach will on average have bad techinque and not truly understand what they are doing. Now tell a black belt who has 2 years of experience to teach all the technqiues he has been practicing for years to students. His experience will make those students much better.

 

[Marginal]

I never said I was a judo expert, far from it, bucko. I don't know how else to put it. YOU DON'T GET CERTIFIED TO KNOW ANY OTHER MA; YOU ONLY GET CERTIFIED TO TEACH YOUR STUDENTS A LITTLE MORE THAN TKD. Gosh, you can't teach them any other MA.

What's tripping your arguement up is that they are teaching other MA's in addition to TKD. They're just not assured of being able to teach it properly.

I'm just saying, I've been taking TKD for a little over two years now. I've been studying the hosinsul from the beginning. If I went to a weekend seminar and got a certificate, I still woudln't claim I was then qualified to be an instructor of Judo or Japanese Jujitsu just because I know how to do a few shoulder throws, arm locks etc.

You can't become an expert(btw, I do more grappling that once or twice a month, thank you) with just learning it in a year of maybe a little practice without full instruction.

Typical rank promotions in BJJ tend to indicate it takes considerably longer than one year to gain expertese.

I'm just saying that when you talk to most people, TKD?! MAN THAT'S A WIMPY MA.

Yes. I've heard that before a few hundred times. I realized a while that it's pointless for me to tell them that we can punch to the face etc. They have their preconceptions already. At best you just come across as someone running down the bulk of TKD to make your own org look better.

So, you have explain to them that there more to it than just a sport. I think it's great that your TKD school has HKD and gun self defense and all that incorporated into your cirriculum.

It doesn't have HKD. It has elements from HKD. I don't pretend to know HKD at all. Many of the basic HKD concepts are not taught in conjunction with the moves etc. (Which kinda makes it very much not HKD in most respects as I'm sure Glad2behere would point out)

I've never trained one gun disarm though. That was just an example since I know Krav Maga does train those.

I'm talking about plenty of the schools that have JUST TKD,

So am I. My school is "JUST TKD".

where they think tkd is simple tkd self-defense, poomse, sparring, and a little bit more. That's what I'm talking about.

That's what you're describing in regards to your own school you know.