Training Outside of Class?
- Thread starter spidersam
- Start date
I didn't have the sound on, so all I saw was the flashing screen.
From the specs pictures, that was the only number that made sense (and I really can't see his kicks generating so little power as 135 lb or 135 kg).
Midnight-shadow
3rd Black Belt
_Simon_
Senior Master
Ah yeah fair enough, yeah not sure, unless it's some arbitrary scale specifically for that machine...
Ahhh here we go, pretty cool:
-----
"How do we measure it?
The Impossible Measurement
The phrases 'Pounds per square inch' and Newtonian Force are not relevant for measuring human performance. They are only relevant where the target area is solid and immoveable like a hammer or a tank. It is a largely useless term in the athletic environment where precious humans, from celebrity players to the all important you, shouldn't strike a hard unmoving object, unless you wish to experience impact damage.
The solution
Our development team created a new method of defining human impact power using controlled compression technology. Recording multiple inputs throughout the range of a strike from initiation, delivery and finish we are able to capture the full picture of an impact. Powerful mathematical equations were used to render the data into useable athlete performance feedback.
Research & Development
Each StrikeCoach product featuring the StrikeMate unit is scientifically calibrated to ensure that it accurately and consistently measures each impact. This calibration is based on the result of 7 years of Cambridge based scientific research and development. This research created the Franklin unit, a combined measurement that is a credible and usable scale to measure athletic performance."
(Next page)
"StrikeCoach has for the first time, overcome the two major obstacles associated with measuring the total force generated in all impact sports. Firstly negating the potential for serious injury, during measurements. Secondly, traditional force measurement is entirely subjective, that is, the harder the surface, the greater the force generated.
Therefore, the maximum force human beings can exert can only be achieved when striking a completely solid object. For that reason, no standardised system of force measurement currently exists. Furthermore, as the hardness of each rig used determines the outcome and all rigs vary in hardness, all existing studies to-date, are incomparable.
Newtonian units of force are only applicable to inanimate objects. Force measurement is only a snapshot of what's happening. An inanimate object, unlike a human, cannot shift its centre of gravity during the impact. To capture this you need a longer time base, a different method of measurement entirely. Following 4 years research, and a further 2 years testing with real people and real impacts, in virtually every discipline, a relationship has been discovered between the measurable (SI) units of power and energy.
The power component is related to speed, so the faster the strike the greater the impact. Energy is related to the weight of the impact. It is (kinetic) energy that gives an impact its penetrative characteristic. We call these factors speed power and compressive energy. When combined, these allow the quantification of all human impacts. We call this compound unit the Franklin (f), a measurement of human force, named after its inventor.
For the non-technical, the harder you hit, the bigger the number (f). This breakthrough allows for a whole new generation of calibrated, sensitive, standardised (everyone is the same) satisfyingly tactile, PC based training and testing equipment. We call it the PowerKube and it gives the user new and invaluable information, not previously available, instantly, from the novice to the scientist."
oldwarrior
Green Belt
You watch ...you listen ...you absorb...you look at yourself ...and you learn about yourself ... every human being trains at something everyday even tho they don't think they are ... don't get hung up on improvement as that will send you on a downward spiral and maybe into self doubt. Think on this ...Not every person can have done what you have already done so you have achieved already ...every person progresses at different rates and to different levels ...yes set your goals but do not over set them set them high enough to push you but not so high that you lose confidence and start self doubting ...
Patience ...watch ...listen...absorb and then move froward you will get there
_Simon_
Senior Master
Well said oldwarrior!
Well, I utterly disagree with their scientific basis for measurement of force - kinetic energy is, by definition, moving and not an inanimate object.
Also, they have effectively created a proprietary unit of measurement that cannot be compared to or with any SI unit - so to compare anything you have to use their machine.
Actually, I'll lower the tone and call balls on it. An object (say a bag) of known weight will move consistently and measurably when struck. It doesn't just sit there. From that movement a very accurate measurement of delivered force can be taken.
Oh, and the Franklin is an electrostatic unit of charge - nothing to do with impact force at all.
Pseudo-sci-babble is how the whole thing appears.
Shame really, the sensors are available to take meaningful and comparable readings, they appear to have made some decent hardware - they just ruined it by trying too hard with justification of their numbers.
Midnight-shadow
3rd Black Belt
That is very confusing but sort of makes sense. Traditionally, to measure the force of something you multiply mass by acceleration, and this can be applied to both the striking object and the target. So in the video I linked before they attached a device to the person's foot to measure the speed of the kick and measured the force from that. However, to measure force accurately you need to be able to move the object you are hitting. That's why in the video they used a long bag that could be displaced. But if they had used (for example) a focus pad that was fixed to the wall, when you hit the pad it wouldn't move, and you therefore couldn't accurately record how much force was going into the pad. However, even though the pad wouldn't physically move, it would deform when you hit it, meaning you had put energy and force into the pad. With the right formula and sensors you could record how much the pad was deformed by the strike and therefore calculate how much energy you are putting into the pad. Very clever indeed.
oldwarrior
Green Belt
Is that not the way of things try to say a thing then back it up with numbers that most of the poulation will believe as it been published ???
Sales is probably the main driving force and thereby ... MONEY ...as the company that doing so has a vested interest in recovering their initial outlay ...
"
Newtonian units of force are only applicable to inanimate objects. Force measurement is only a snapshot of what's happening. An inanimate object, unlike a human, cannot shift its centre of gravity during the impact. To capture this you need a longer time base, a different method of measurement entirely. Following 4 years research, and a further 2 years testing with real people and real impacts, in virtually every discipline, a relationship has been discovered between the measurable (SI) units of power and energy.
The power component is related to speed, so the faster the strike the greater the impact. Energy is related to the weight of the impact. It is (kinetic) energy that gives an impact its penetrative characteristic. We call these factors speed power and compressive energy. When combined, these allow the quantification of all human impacts. We call this compound unit the Franklin (f), a measurement of human force, named after its inventor.
For the non-technical, the harder you hit, the bigger the number (f). This breakthrough allows for a whole new generation of calibrated, sensitive, standardised (everyone is the same) satisfyingly tactile, PC based training and testing equipment
They measure in Franklins (named after the inventor of the machine). It seems Franklins are based on the highlighted parts above.
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jobo
Grandmaster
We did a very long thread about this 12months ago and it's to early on a Sat to rehash it. But the confusion comes from a miss use of force and an insistence on messing power of a kick or punch in lbs.
Firsst it's lbs per square inch, so the contact area is important, second it's the wrong unit of measurment, force applied to the object being hit not the thing doing the hitting
So I'm simple terms, if the contact Area 1square inch and the object weight one pound and it Accelerates away at one metered second per second, then one pound per square inch of force was experienced, change any of those variables and the amount of force changes
If that is being measured in pounds per square inch and hit contact area is say 4square inches, the force experienced would be four times greater is he could get the contact area down to one square inch
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As I said, I disagree with their interpretation.
The opening statement "Newtonian units of force are only applicable to inanimate objects" is wrong for a start.
Also, their pad is inanimate, it doesn't react or actively shift - it sits there (in an inanimate fashion) until it gets hit. Much like a bag, or a pad.
As I also said, the Franklin as a unit is already in use for something entirely unrelated.
_Simon_
Senior Master
Rightyo!
It sorta makes sense to me. I think they mean that the hardness of the object taking the impact changes the force absorbed, therefore the kinetic energy absorbed will differ. So they've utilised compression as a measurement, as other means aren't as accurate (especially when it comes to the power of certain techniques). Just pondering out loud, not saying making conclusive statements.
Although if the hardness of an object was standardised then you could just make measurements on that as a standard, just the relative differences could be measured on whatever we choose I guess. Dunno!
Hmm I wouldn't say that it's backed solely for money. I mean of course they are trying to sell their product to people, but it would make sense for people who devised a product to explain how it works to people.. not necessarily to trick people or get them to believe faulty or magic numbers.
Midnight-shadow
3rd Black Belt
I don't think anyone actually uses Franklin units as a measure of electrical power anymore, although it is confusing having the same name. Also when it comes to the pad, it sounds like they have decided to measure the elastic potential energy at the point of impact and then convert that to force, which makes sense since the pad doesn't move therefore the standard F=MxA doesn't apply. I don't know how accurate their method is compared to the more traditional method, but that is the theory behind it.
jobo
Grandmaster
The pad doesn't have to move( through space,) you can measure how quickly the pad deformed on contact and use that for acceleration, like putting a dent in a car with you foot, your unlikely to move the whole car, yet you could still calculate the force experienced by the car, as it is is probably on a huge spring and did move a bit
Midnight-shadow
3rd Black Belt
You can apply tribology (the science of friction) to Newtonian models, but it is a lot harder to do and most people don't bother unless their entire focus is on reducing resistance as much as possible.
jobo
Grandmaster
Yes, you can factor it in, but Newton didn't actually bother with that in any of his laws of motion, and if you do so, it's no longer Newton mechanics
Just adding what they were stating so people don't have to go back and forth on the website with what they claim to measure.
One of the statements on their page says "The harder you hit the higher the numbers go." This works for me, because it doesn't do anything beyond giving me a number in which to try to maintain or exceed for the purpose of training strikes. They could have measured it in rabbit poo and I would still have benefit from it. I need to try to maintain a count of 163 rabbit droppings force for as long as I can. When the number of rabbit droppings decrease it means that my leg is becoming tired.
The things that they claim are measurable, but have very little value than monitoring increases in decreased of kicking.
Midnight-shadow
3rd Black Belt
Newton was aware of Friction, since it was experimented with by Galileo before him. Newton's first law (the law of inertia) states that an object will remain in motion until acted on by an outside force. If he was able to come to this conclusion, he must have known about Friction as the main stopping force. After all, if Friction didn't exist, according to the law of inertia, a ball that starts rolling forwards along a flat surface would continue to roll forever.
Anyway, going back to the previous point, I don't know how accurately you could measure force using F=MxA when only a portion of the object is moved.
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