Plateau Problem: Seeking Quick Additional Flexibility Techniques

[GPFontaine]

Background:
I am a month away from 30 years old and am currently in the best shape of my life. Back in December of 2009 I was 165lb, out of shape, tired, and tipping into depression. Along with my wife I opted to change things. In 2007 I had completed P90X, so I broke it out again. Over the last six months I have completed P90X and am in the second phase of another round. I brought my weight down to 142lb, body fat to 6.3% and my waist in from 34.5in to 30.5in. I followed P90X exactly and never missed a day for food or exercise.

Three weeks ago I found that I had so much excess energy that I decided to enroll in a Chinese Kenpo school. During my life I have practiced martial arts at two other points, once from age 8 to 9 and again from age 22 to 23. The punching and kicking has mentally come back and I am enjoying the classes very much.

Current Life:
I am now attending one hour Kenpo classes four days a week and continuing with my P90X workouts and diet. I had to increase my caloric intake by about 400 per day, mostly through protein and carbs. My energy levels are excellent. I am still seeing muscle and strength gains and my endurance and actually growing rapidly. In truth, I am the happiest I have been in years and this lifestyle is sustainable for me, so I plan to continue.

Plateau Problem:
Unfortunately I have found that even with pre and post stretching routines for both workouts and Kenpo my inner thighs are hurting worse than ever and I am not seeing flexibility gains. For P90X I do the included warm-up and cool down routines. For the martial arts class I follow the class’s warm-up and cool down. Friends in the class tell me that the flexibility will come in time, however I am not convinced.

The feeling in my legs makes me believe that the muscle gains and endurance are coming at the cost of flexibility due to the timing and methods of my stretching.

Currently I devote an hour and a half to workout out every day and an additional hour and a half to traveling to Kenpo and doing the class. Three hours a day is doable, but that is very close to my limit. I am hoping that there are a few stretches that I can do for 5-10 minutes a day.

I have seen some of the Elastic Steel videos and they seem great, but I’m not sure how to pick 5-10 minutes of routines out of 2 hours of video or when I should do the stretches.

I appreciate any advice that you all may have to offer. Thank you.

 

[ATC]

Wow that is great that you have changed yourself so much. Good for you. Keep up the great work.

As for the flexibility they are correct. It is a much slower process then losing weight or gaining muscle. Since you hit that plateau you now need to add more stretching to your daily routine. You should stretch in the morning, afternoon and evening now. 3 times a day.

You will also need to make sure you are not only stretching one set of muscles but the group as a whole. You will need to stretch all your leg muscles. This mean from the feet to the buttocks. Yes the glutes (butt) are a part of the legs. You need to stretch the hips (inner and outer), quads, hams (your butt is a part of your hamstrings), calves (front and back), ankles and feet. You will need minimum of 30 minutes to do just your lower body and it will need to be done three times a day. Hold each stretch for a minimum of 30 seconds.

After about 2 weeks of this you should see yourself passing your plateau. Always stretch after a good 10-15 minute warmup. You should break a good sweat during your warmup. Never stretch cold.

Hope that helps.

 

[Laus]

This may be more time consuming than you would like, but I find hot yoga is excellent for increasing my flexibilty relatively quickly. It's not instant of course but the gains are more substantial early on because the heat facilitates deeper stretches than you can achieve even after warming up with a good long run. A proper session (1 - 1.5 hours) also involves strengthening and mild cardio (though done slowly the heat and holds can get your heartrate higher than you might expect). It is more of a workout than "cold" yoga (which I detest) and you will at times be sore the next day especially early on (I would do the first session on a day you aren't doing anything else until you see how you react).

Hot yoga has a direct effect on martial arts training. The heat gets into muscles that can be hard to stretch otherwise, including those muscles in the lower back, hips and groin that are so vital to martial artists. When I was preparing for my shodan test in karate I did a hot yoga class twice a week, and it did wonders for me. Its also really good for facilitating detoxification of the body, something you may want to be thinking about anyways given your old lifestyle.

Personally I prefer Moksha over Bikram, but either works. My experience with Bikram is limited but I found it less enjoyable (something in the sequence of postures I suppose), but thats really a matter of personal taste, it should be just as effective. Moksha is mostly confined to Canada at any rate. I imagine there are other Bikram spin offs out there if you look for them.

I suggest hot yoga to a lot of my male martial arts aquaintences, most look at me like I have two heads and I suspect few (if any) have actually tried it, but it really is effective. Plenty of guys do it, at least everywhere I've practiced (though the ratio of men to women is rather the inverse of what it is in a martial arts school). If the idea doesn't make you uncomfortable it is really worthwhile. You could always bring yuor wife along anyways.

Other than that, I make sure to devote at least a full half hour to stretching after a session at the gym, using a combination of yoga stretches and ones I've learned from my martial arts instructors.

 

[GPFontaine]

Thank you for the feedback so far. Last night before bed and this morning before my P90X Kenpo X workout I added about 11 minutes of leg stretching. Remember this is in addition to all of the stretching I already do for both P90X and my Kenpo Class. I might be able to supplement this 2 times a day.

So here are the questions I have:

1. When should I be adding these stretches? I have a little time during my lunch break at work and I have time before I go to bed.
2. Are these a good set of stretches?
3. Are these stretches in a good order?

Quick Blood Flow Warmup 1 Minute
50 Fast Jumping Jacks

Glute Stretch 1 Minute
Laying on my back I lift and bend my left knee and place my right ankle on my left thigh I then place my hands under my ankle holding my left thigh and pull it in. This works my right glute. I hold for 30 seconds and then repeat the other side.

Calf Stretch 1 minute
I get into a downward facing dog position and bend my left knee, driving my right heel towards the floor and trying to lift my right toes up. I hold for 10 seconds and then alternate feet. I shift back and forth doing each calf 3 times.

Quad Stretch 1 Minute
While standing I keep my right thigh parallel to my left and bend my right knee until my right heel is touching my butt. I then grab my right ankle with both hands and pull for 30 seconds keeping my posture straight. I then repeat with the other leg.

Inner Thigh 1 Minute
I hold a frog stretch for 60 seconds. Every 10 seconds or so I go in and out of it bringing my legs further apart and feet further out with each pass. I try to bring my butt back to 90 degree alignment with my knees and then hold for a few seconds before coming out and expanding.

Hips 1 Minute
I hold a cobbler’s pose for 30 seconds with a straight back and head up followed by a cobbler’s pose for 30 seconds with a round back

Spine 1 Minute
I get into a Plow pose and hold with my knees locked for 30 seconds. Even after six months, this is still an uncomfortable position for me and I work hard to try and breathe through the pain. After that I hold with my knees bent for another 30 seconds.

Hamstrings 1 1 Minute
I place my left foot 6 inches in front of my right foot. My left foot is aimed straight ahead and my right foot is aimed 45 degrees to the right. My left heel is directly in front of my right heel. I then bend over trying to touch my left toes with both hands. I keep both legs locked. I hold for 30 seconds and repeat with the other leg.

Hamstrings 2 1 Minute
I sit down and place my left leg straight out with my right leg bent in. My right foot is touching my left knee. I then bend over keeping my left leg locked and hold my ankle pulling myself forward and down. I hold for 30 seconds and repeat with the other side.

Splits1 Minute
I attempt to do a full side split and hold for 15 seconds. I then slowly rotate into a left leg front split and hold for 15 seconds. I slowly come back to a side split for 15 seconds. I then slowly rotate into a right leg front split for 15 seconds.

30 Straight leg Kicks 1 Minutes
From a loose right foot back fighting stance I kick my right leg up as high as I can with a locked knee. I repeat 5 times. I switch legs and repeat 5 times.
From a straight standing position I kick my right leg out to the right with a locked knee 5 times as high as I can. I switch legs and repeat 5 times.
From a loose right foot back fighting stance I kick my right leg backwards as high as I can with a locked knee. I repeat 5 times. I switch legs and repeat 5 times.​

 

[bluekey88]

Other things to keep in mind, you need to build muscle to get flexible. Squatting and deadlifting along with stretching are an invaluable combination.

also, try PNf stretching once or twice a week (no more...it's a workout in itself). In this, you take a stretch out and then while holding the stretch, flex your muscles against this stretch. So, in a straddle (or box) stretch, you try to drive your feet into the ground. Hold this tension for about 10-15 seconds...your muscles should be shaking and aching. then relax and try to go further. repeat this again.

the idea is to tire the muscles out so they can't fight your efforts to relax and stretch, and thus retrain your muslces/brian to accept a new set point for flexibility.

Peace,
Erik

 

[ap Oweyn]

Here's a link to Dan Van Zandt's blog (http://danvanzandt.blogspot.com/). He's the resident flexibility and stretching whiz on another forum I frequent. Been a while since I did a lot of high kicking myself. But by all accounts, Dan's advice is rock solid. Good place to start.


Stuart

 

[ATC]

Thank you for the feedback so far. Last night before bed and this morning before my P90X Kenpo X workout I added about 11 minutes of leg stretching. Remember this is in addition to all of the stretching I already do for both P90X and my Kenpo Class. I might be able to supplement this 2 times a day.

So here are the questions I have:

1. When should I be adding these stretches? I have a little time during my lunch break at work and I have time before I go to bed.
2. Are these a good set of stretches?
3. Are these stretches in a good order?

Quick Blood Flow Warmup 1 Minute
50 Fast Jumping Jacks

Glute Stretch 1 Minute
Laying on my back I lift and bend my left knee and place my right ankle on my left thigh I then place my hands under my ankle holding my left thigh and pull it in. This works my right glute. I hold for 30 seconds and then repeat the other side.

Calf Stretch 1 minute
I get into a downward facing dog position and bend my left knee, driving my right heel towards the floor and trying to lift my right toes up. I hold for 10 seconds and then alternate feet. I shift back and forth doing each calf 3 times.

Quad Stretch 1 Minute
While standing I keep my right thigh parallel to my left and bend my right knee until my right heel is touching my butt. I then grab my right ankle with both hands and pull for 30 seconds keeping my posture straight. I then repeat with the other leg.

Inner Thigh 1 Minute
I hold a frog stretch for 60 seconds. Every 10 seconds or so I go in and out of it bringing my legs further apart and feet further out with each pass. I try to bring my butt back to 90 degree alignment with my knees and then hold for a few seconds before coming out and expanding.

Hips 1 Minute
I hold a cobbler’s pose for 30 seconds with a straight back and head up followed by a cobbler’s pose for 30 seconds with a round back

Spine 1 Minute
I get into a Plow pose and hold with my knees locked for 30 seconds. Even after six months, this is still an uncomfortable position for me and I work hard to try and breathe through the pain. After that I hold with my knees bent for another 30 seconds.

Hamstrings 1 1 Minute
I place my left foot 6 inches in front of my right foot. My left foot is aimed straight ahead and my right foot is aimed 45 degrees to the right. My left heel is directly in front of my right heel. I then bend over trying to touch my left toes with both hands. I keep both legs locked. I hold for 30 seconds and repeat with the other leg.

Hamstrings 2 1 Minute
I sit down and place my left leg straight out with my right leg bent in. My right foot is touching my left knee. I then bend over keeping my left leg locked and hold my ankle pulling myself forward and down. I hold for 30 seconds and repeat with the other side.

Splits1 Minute
I attempt to do a full side split and hold for 15 seconds. I then slowly rotate into a left leg front split and hold for 15 seconds. I slowly come back to a side split for 15 seconds. I then slowly rotate into a right leg front split for 15 seconds.

30 Straight leg Kicks 1 Minutes
From a loose right foot back fighting stance I kick my right leg up as high as I can with a locked knee. I repeat 5 times. I switch legs and repeat 5 times.
From a straight standing position I kick my right leg out to the right with a locked knee 5 times as high as I can. I switch legs and repeat 5 times.
From a loose right foot back fighting stance I kick my right leg backwards as high as I can with a locked knee. I repeat 5 times. I switch legs and repeat 5 times.
​

If you can do this twice a day then you should be good. I know that Erik stated to build muscle but you should be doing that anyway with your p90x and your MA workouts. Keep up the added daily stretching for a couple of weeks and see what it gets you. You should see some gains.

If you are close to full splits (both side and front type) then I would add a 6 to 12 inch lift under one foot to give you what is called a hyper split. This will force that last 2 inches or so you need to go and get you to full splits. Dancers and Gymnist do this type of stretching all the time. If you have never heard of it just look up the term.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Dynamic flexibility training is more important and more functional. Static stretching should ONLY be done as a cool down routine. If you are statically stretching pre-workout or on your off days, you can be doing more harm in the arena of flexibility than good.

By stretching a muscle and holding it for extended periods of time prior to a workout illicits a stretch reflex that ramps up resting muscle tone. So you are effectively tightening your muscle before working out, and it is difficult to achieve gains in flexibility in this manner.

PNF stretching after a brief warm up will maximize your flexibility gains quickly. Bill "Superfoot" Wallace produced a stretching video that was solely focused on PNF stretching back in the late 80's I believe. I could go into great detail about how to perform PNF stretches, but you may just want to google it, or maybe youtube has Superfoots stretching clips.. .

With a proper one set; three repitition PNF stretch you can gain a few degrees of flexibility each session (you have to do it daily though).

 

[GPFontaine]

After reading through the comments left here and some of the links offered, I have come to the conclusion that the static stretching that I listed may not be very good for me.

I read through Dan Van Zandt's information and am thinking about trying the Dynamic Kicks twice a day. Once when I wake up and once during my lunch break.

In addition after my weight lifting workouts (Mon, Wed, Fri) I will do the Isometric split stretches. I believe I am in good enough shape to handle them.

Lastly I am not sure how to work it in yet, but I would like to do the relaxed stretches. The total time isn't that much to get them all in, I am just not sure where the relaxed stretches fit into my daily routine.

 

[ATC]

Dynamic flexibility training is more important and more functional. Static stretching should ONLY be done as a cool down routine. If you are statically stretching pre-workout or on your off days, you can be doing more harm in the arena of flexibility than good.

By stretching a muscle and holding it for extended periods of time prior to a workout illicits a stretch reflex that ramps up resting muscle tone. So you are effectively tightening your muscle before working out, and it is difficult to achieve gains in flexibility in this manner.

PNF stretching after a brief warm up will maximize your flexibility gains quickly. Bill "Superfoot" Wallace produced a stretching video that was solely focused on PNF stretching back in the late 80's I believe. I could go into great detail about how to perform PNF stretches, but you may just want to google it, or maybe youtube has Superfoots stretching clips.. .

With a proper one set; three repitition PNF stretch you can gain a few degrees of flexibility each session (you have to do it daily though).

Yes, dynamic flexibility is what we all want, but it would be best to have both types (dynamic and static) as each really help one another not hurt.

Here is a thread from another area on this site that someone else also need help on flexibility and kicking high. Lots of good stuff there as well for you. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80117&highlight=Dynamic+Stretching

It really helped out the OP of that thead.

 

[ATC]

After reading through the comments left here and some of the links offered, I have come to the conclusion that the static stretching that I listed may not be very good for me.

I read through Dan Van Zandt's information and am thinking about trying the Dynamic Kicks twice a day. Once when I wake up and once during my lunch break.

In addition after my weight lifting workouts (Mon, Wed, Fri) I will do the Isometric split stretches. I believe I am in good enough shape to handle them.

Lastly I am not sure how to work it in yet, but I would like to do the relaxed stretches. The total time isn't that much to get them all in, I am just not sure where the relaxed stretches fit into my daily routine.

Not true. Static stretches are not bad for you at all if done correctly. Dynamic stretches are what all dancers, martial artist and gymnist want but if you look closer they have both not just one. Each type of stretch will help the other. This is why you need to do both not just one type. See my post above this an use the link to view a similar post with some good info.

 

[bluekey88]

You need to do both. I do daily dynamic stretches in the morning and just prior to class/teaching (so 1-2 times a day). I do static stretching pretty much daily after I work out or aqt the end of class. I do the PNF stretching on my "light" conditioning days as a finisher.

In truth I am no longer looking for full splits or anything. But I can kick head height cold no problem without pain or much effort. It's simply somthing you have to work into your routine just liek cardio and strength work.

Peace,
Erik

 

[kaizasosei]

If flexibility is an 'issue', then i would make it my prime concern.
Work out to stretch. Do everything with the goals of stretching in mind.
Take a really hot relaxing bath just to stretch afterwards, go for runs for the sole purpose of warming up to stretch. When you feel a stretch and it starts to hurt, hold it for something like another 5-20 min.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Yes, dynamic flexibility is what we all want, but it would be best to have both types (dynamic and static) as each really help one another not hurt.

Here is a thread from another area on this site that someone else also need help on flexibility and kicking high. Lots of good stuff there as well for you. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80117&highlight=Dynamic+Stretching

It really helped out the OP of that thead.

I was not suggesting that static flexibility is a bad thing, only that static stretching prior to a work out can hinder the workout and your overall flexibility. Dynamic stretching should be part of your warm up/pre-workout routine, and static stretching should be part of your post workout routine. Both are beneficial when performed at the proper time.

A 2007 study by IM Fletcher et. al. at the University of Lufton in the UK showed that static passive stretching included in a warm up decreased performance in athletes. This is due to a decrease in muscle elasticity and reduced muscle activation prior to intiation of closed chain movement. Simply, it is like over stretching a rubber band, just as an over stretched rubber band loses its ability to return energy, your muscles lose elasticity and their ability to return energy. The decrease in muscle elasticity is due, in part, by the myotatic reflex (aka the stretch reflex). The stretch reflex is a neural mechanism that respons to changes in muscle length (aka stretching) by attempting to resist that change in length as a protection mechanism. The changes in length are detected by proprioceptors called muscle spindles. Changes in muscle tension are also detected and affected by the proprioceptors found within the tendons; the Golgi tendon organs.

When you stretch a muscle there is an initial stretch reflex which is quick and strong. The strength of this reflex depends upon the rate of change. This is the dynamic component. There is a second, weaker but longer acting, static component which responds to the new length. The static component persists as the new length is held. The static fibers respond to the new length in a sustained, tonic fashion and the discharge of both static fiber types is continued for as long as the new length is held.


One misconception of the stretch reflex is that the muscle spindles are only active when stretching or otherwise stimulating a muscles. In fact the job of the spindles is to signal muscle length continuously as part of the proprieceptive system. Both primary and secondary fiber types discharge tonically when the muscle is at it’s resting length and increase their rate of discharge when there is a change in length. The muscle spindles themselves, due to their short lengths, size, and other factors, do not generate any appreciable muscle tension.


The Golgi tendon organs are proprioceptors, which, instead of monitoring change in muscle length, monitor change in muscle tension. There is an active and passive component here as well, with the threshold for tension developed through stretch relatively lower than that of active contraction. Previously it was thought that the golgi tendon organs only reacted to extreme changes in tension and were simply a protective device. But it is now known that the receptors are simply more insensitive to passive tension but extremely sensitive to active tension. The gogi tendon organs initiate autogenic inhibition in the stretched muscle.
The misunderstandings about the stretch reflex are based on this. Different muscles can have different resting muscle tones. Some muscles may be hypertonic and show a marked increase in reaction to stretch. Whereas some muscles may be hypotonic and have a muted response. It is important to note that “normal” tone in a muscle is a very ill-defined concept. All muscles in any given individual do not react the same to stretch.


The relaxation response is part of a cyclical reaction. Once the muscle is “relaxed” via autogenic inhibition is is free to stretch and thus lengthen again and thus the muscle spindles are free to react to stretch again initating another stretch reflex, upon which time, at a certain point, the golgi tendon organs may react again, so on and so forth.


It is not well excepted that the golgi tendon is sensitive enough to passive or static stretch conditions to contribute greatly to muscle relaxation via autogenic inhibition. It is certainly not an optimal condition for GTO involvement. But earlier theories suggested that one response to prolonged passive stretch was the subsequent relaxation after contraction of the stretched muscle, by one means or another, which should theoretically lessen resistance to further stretch.


Although there is indeed less restistance during slow, static stretching these simplistic theories about muscle relaxation should be considered incomplete. The idea that complete relaxation is needed to increase flexibility certainly doesn’t hold up in real training.
Many people think that once a stretch is “held” for a long enough period of time then the stretch response simply vanishes. Instead the response is part of a feedback circuit that continuously monitors muscle length and tension. Simply pausing a stretch does not eliminate the stretch reflex entirely, only ameliorates it. Furthermore, any great change in muscle activity has not been shown after a hold of 30 seconds or more. Longer durations will not result in greater acceptance of stretch reducing the stretch reflex.


Another misconception is that injury due to stretching is entirely due to velocity of stretching and thus only dynamic and ballistic stretching activities will lead to injury. However, the extensibility of muscles is not without limit and all tissues will eventually reach a point of rupture, regardless of the velocity of the lengthening. The stretch reflex together with the relaxation response due to inhibition is not an excuse for "extreme" stretching activities. Injuries can and will occur if muscles are stretched too vigorously.


The flexion is resisted due to the reflex response to stretch in the extensor but the reflex suddenly “melts away” and the muscle is relaxed due to an exaggeration in the response. Thus when a spastic limb is being passively moved though a range of motion there is a constant resistance and then it seems as if this resistance suddenly lets go, and the limb suddenly easily collapses into full flexion.


Actually, this gives rise to another frequent misunderstanding. The difference between the stretch reflex and mechanical recoil in the muscles. When you stretch a muscle, mechanical energy is stored in the cross-bridges which basically results in a spring effect. Thus, during the eccentric portion of a bench press, energy is stored in the muscles that contributes greatly to the concentric.


However if one pauses for long enough at the bottom of the press, this energy dissipates. This has caused some to theorize that the stretch reflex is dampened or eliminated and the inhibitory action of the Golgi tendon organ makes the concentric action harder after a pause. However, this is likely to have very little influence.


How the GTO works and doesn’t work, it should be noted, is not entirely understood.
When flexibility in a muscle increases, it is because the response to repeated bouts of stretching dampens and modulates the reaction to stretch. Thus allowing greater changes in length over time. But it is the repeated exposure over time that is important and it is possible to injure the muscle due to too vigorous a stretch. This could result in a muscle that not only does not achieve the desired flexibility in a timely manner but that becomes less flexible and ameliorable to stretch due to many small injures over time.


As stated previously any tissue can reach it’s point of rupture regardless of the velocity of stretching. The stretch reflex may be able to be “downtrained” over time but this leads to other problems. Seeking to continuously downtrain the stretch reflex is probably not going to contribute to athletic success and indeed, more flexilbility is not always good. Useful range of motion should be should be distinguished from excessive range of motion.


The stretch reflex is sometimes confused with the "stretch response" which has to do with tension generated in parallel muscle fibers at lengths slightly greater than resting length. Both the stretch reflex and the stretch response may be part of the stretch shortening cycle (SSC). It is unclear to what extent each component is important but the SSC is key in developing explosive power.

The same 2007 study also illustrates that active dynamic stretching performed as part of a warm up did not adversely affect muscle elasticity, and suggests that this is a more appropriate pre-workout stretch. Dynamic stretching has been shown to be more effective because it increases blood flow to the muscles, lubricates joints, and increases muscle pliability.

This does not mean you should never perform static stretching. Static stretching remains to be one of the best ways to increase range of motion and maintain flexibility.

It should also be noted that there are two distinct types of static strething; static active stretching and static passive stretching. Static active stretching is a stretch in which you assume an open chain position (i.e. a side kick) and hold it there with no assistance other than using the strength of the agonist muscle groups. The tension of the agonists in a static active stretch helps to relax the antagonist muscle groups via reciprocal inhibition. Static active stretching can and, IMO should be part of your pre-workout routine. It helps to develop both flexibility and joint stability by exercising the muscles around the joint.

Static passive stretching is what most people think of when you hear static stretching. A static passive stretch is one where you assume a position and hold it with some other part of your body, or with the assistance of a partner or some other equipment. Splits are an example of a static passive stretch.

These relaxed static passive stretches are ideal for "cooling down" after a workout, as they help to reduce post-workout muscle fatigue and soreness, as well as maintain flexibility.