Training at Multiple Dojos?

[Flying Crane]

Well there are 5 of us that teach and or take turns teaching. We all trained together for over two decades. We all have slightly different teaching styles and focus on separate aspects but I see it as beneficial because if a student can’t get what I’m saying they might get it better from one of my training brothers. None of us is the equal of our teachers but together we 5 make a Voltron teacher!

Sure, and this is different from what I am getting at. If the five of you trained under the same lineage and have worked together for years, I assume you are teaching the same system and your concepts of the foundation is likely very very close, essentially identical. You are not teaching concepts that are in conflict with each other. You may each have things you emphasize, specific drills or techniques or technique combos that you prefer, but that is all still consistent with the foundation of the method. That works, and that kind of variety is enriching.

I am talking about people from different lineages, even within the same system, who understand the foundation and the fundamentals differently, and teach a student to do things one way that might be in conflict with how someone else teaches it. These conflicts can often be found between different lineages within the same system. They have developed in their own way over a few generations, and there has been some drift in the understanding and the technical standards. They may both work well, or one may work better than the other, but regardless, a student, especially at the beginner stages, needs consistency in what and how they are being taught. If they get conflicting messages from a different teacher every time they come to class, they will inhibit their development. That kind of variety is not enriching, it is confusing.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Those who feel it is purely transactional and believe they have a right to walk in, drop some money on the counter and expect a lesson, vs. those who see this as a relationship between instructor and student, and the fees take a back seat in terms of importance.

I can tell you that I've felt both, and it varies based on the school and the environment. And feeling the former doesn't necessarily mean you're at a McDojo - it could be that the instructor isn't very approachable, or has mannerisms that are too professional to be personable.

 

[opr1945]

Interesting discussion. thought that haven't occurred to me on my own. Some threads interest me more than others. Variety is the spice of Life???

 

[Buka]

I encourage my students to train with other people in other arts. I want my students to develop a well rounded ability that takes into account things I don’t know or teach. My goal is to produce martial artists that outclass me. I want to be a valuable ingredient in their martial arts growth.

I hear you, brother.
If you’re a good Martial Artist who happens to be a good instructor, there is nothing better in life than your students outclassing you.

 

[isshinryuronin]

If you’re a good Martial Artist who happens to be a good instructor, there is nothing better in life than your students outclassing you.

One of my students managed to beat John Natividad, an Internationals Grand Champion (Buka should be familiar with him) and winner of many, many other tournaments in the early 70's across the USA. But he couldn't beat me. Was I that good? Could I have beaten one of the top 10 fighters in the country? No way (but you never know ).

I believe in the process of teaching a student for a number of years the student is conditioned by various processes to not to be able to beat Sensei. Whether it's bowing to him for years, the sensei's superior skill in the beginning years that gets imprinted on the student, a subliminal loyalty, or some other mental factors, I think it's a real thing.

An interesting phenomenon and one I've heard of from others as well.

 

[Cri70]

One of my students managed to beat John Natividad, an Internationals Grand Champion (Buka should be familiar with him) and winner of many, many other tournaments in the early 70's across the USA. But he couldn't beat me. Was I that good? Could I have beaten one of the top 10 fighters in the country? No way (but you never know ).

I believe in the process of teaching a student for a number of years the student is conditioned by various processes to not to be able to beat Sensei. Whether it's bowing to him for years, the sensei's superior skill in the beginning years that gets imprinted on the student, a subliminal loyalty, or some other mental factors, I think it's a real thing.

An interesting phenomenon and one I've heard of from others as well.

You're on something here. I think it's even more general: you have a chance to beat someone only if you believe you can beat someone, not just "sensei" and not just in physical confrontations, but in a lot of different life situations. The "someone" doesn't even need to be a person; can be an audience, a situation. The chance of "winning" - whatever that be - begins in one's mind, and it needs training there.

 

[Buka]

One of my students managed to beat John Natividad, an Internationals Grand Champion (Buka should be familiar with him) and winner of many, many other tournaments in the early 70's across the USA. But he couldn't beat me. Was I that good? Could I have beaten one of the top 10 fighters in the country? No way (but you never know ).

I believe in the process of teaching a student for a number of years the student is conditioned by various processes to not to be able to beat Sensei. Whether it's bowing to him for years, the sensei's superior skill in the beginning years that gets imprinted on the student, a subliminal loyalty, or some other mental factors, I think it's a real thing.

An interesting phenomenon and one I've heard of from others as well.

I was a big fan of John Natividad. I always thought he was a class act. That’s awesome that your student bested him.

There is that subliminal loyalty thing with students. And there is that factor of believing they can’t beat the Sensei. Or maybe they don’t want to, I don’t know.

Fortunately, my students and I didn’t have to go through that. My teachers routinely game down and walloped the tar out of me during sparring nights, so my students were used to it. I always told them “you guys will be able to beat me in a couple years if you work hard, I’ll show you how. And I’ll even show you how to beat my teachers. But that might take a little longer.”

A few of my students got so good as black belts, I had to send them to other schools (usually one of my teachers, but not always) in order for them to continue their forward progress in Martial ability. I even paid their tuition if they didn’t have the money.

The way I figured it, if they went through all they had to go through in order to make Dan rank in our school, they more than paid their dues in Martial Arts. Maybe not tuition, but definitely their dues.

 

[isshinryuronin]

And I’ll even show you how to beat my teachers.

There was no way to beat Bob Ozman. He was tough in every way. He went toe to toe with Joe. Said he beat him, but the judges didn't agree. I believe him as he never showed any ego and was a humble man. I saw Joe get beat by a little hapkido guy who ducked under Joe's deadly side kick, come up behind him and countered (it may have been in that big $ tournament but could have been another) but the refs didn't count it. Didn't seem right to me.
Sometimes the favorite has an advantage.

 

[Buka]

There was no way to beat Bob Ozman. He was tough in every way. He went toe to toe with Joe. Said he beat him, but the judges didn't agree. I believe him as he never showed any ego and was a humble man. I saw Joe get beat by a little hapkido guy who ducked under Joe's deadly side kick, come up behind him and countered (it may have been in that big $ tournament but could have been another) but the refs didn't count it. Didn't seem right to me.
Sometimes the favorite has an advantage.

Ain’t that the truth?

I lost to several guys because they had big names and were expected to win.

And years before that because of the color of our gis.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I hear you, brother.
If you’re a good Martial Artist who happens to be a good instructor, there is nothing better in life than your students outclassing you.

I’m an average martial artist, and a mediocre teacher. I don’t have a huge following of students, but the ones I do have seem to like what I do. There is an awful lot I don’t know. I think I have some good value ( I charge $7.50/class )for students, especially for beginners. I make sure they understand that I’m not claiming to be anything special.

 

[Gyakuto]

I’m an average martial artist, and a mediocre teacher. I don’t have a huge following of students, but the ones I do have seem to like what I do. There is an awful lot I don’t know. I think I have some good value ( I charge $7.50/class )for students, especially for beginners. I make sure they understand that I’m not claiming to be anything special.

You need to ‘blag it’ a bit more and then you can charge $9 a session. For example, insist everyone calls you Grandmaster PoPo even your family, wear a gold, silky flouncy training uniform with a red sash tied around you waist (knot at your right hip). Never give direct answers to any questions from students but from time to time say things like, “Ah yes! Watch the inner snake fighting the outer dragon. When you understand their ‘pattern’, only then will you know the way”. Shave your head too

 

[jks9199]

Ain’t that the truth?

I lost to several guys because they had big names and were expected to win.

And years before that because of the color of our gis.

I know a few stories about events like that...

Still goes on, too... I've been to a few smaller tournaments and it's been "shocking" how many of the winners happened to be from hosting schools or close affiliates. If you don't do them all the time and get known, and especially if your not from a system that they know about...

I always used tournaments as a chance to test skills against different folks. Forms were a warm-up and opportunity to reduce butterflies, but as more and more went to single elimination sparring brackets, and the cost went up, it just stopped being worth the price and travel. A few, where I knew the hosts and felt that it would be a good event for my students or keep up some connections, but that was about it.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You need to ‘blag it’ a bit more and then you can charge $9 a session. For example, insist everyone calls you Grandmaster PoPo even your family, wear a gold, silky flouncy training uniform with a red sash tied around you waist (knot at your right hip). Never give direct answers to any questions from students but from time to time say things like, “Ah yes! Watch the inner snake fighting the outer dragon. When you understand their ‘pattern’, only then will you know the way”. Shave your head too

It won’t be long,I won’t need to shave my head. So white t shirt isn’t good?

 

[Gyakuto]

You build up an image of a person in one’s mind and then see what they actually look like…how I weep..

 

[Gyakuto]

It won’t be long,I won’t need to shave my head. So white t shirt isn’t good?

Gold lamé…gold!

 

[Buka]

It won’t be long,I won’t need to shave my head. So white t shirt isn’t good?

You have the look of someone in film and TV.

I don’t mean you look like somebody, but you have the look that casting agents love.

 

[Gyakuto]

You have the look of someone in film and TV.

I don’t mean you look like somebody, but you have the look that casting agents love.

…yeah…Harvey Weinstein

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

…yeah…Harvey Weinstein

You want to sit on my casting couch?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You build up an image of a person in one’s mind and then see what they actually look like…how I weep..

I’m sorry to disappoint you.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You have the look of someone in film and TV.

I don’t mean you look like somebody, but you have the look that casting agents love.

The Big Head thing? Well you know, I want you to tell me who to send my pics to then. Not kidding even a little bit.