Training at Multiple Dojos?

[Flying Crane]

Those who see martial arts instruction as a business transaction will view this one way, while those who see it as something other than a business transaction will view it differently.

Putting that all to the side, there are very real reasons why training at two different schools in the same system, at the same time, could be very problematic, especially if the student is a beginner. And this has absolutely nothing to do with humility, ego, groveling, or some kind of holdout from an outdated traditional culture.

The OP’s indication that he is reconsidering the issue is a good step in the right direction.

 

[Flying Crane]

IMO, in some cases, rightfully so. Yes, once again, I express a perhaps unexpected opposite viewpoint.

Certainly, in times past when the master handpicked his students before TMA became commercialized, this was true. The teacher had no obligation to teach. The main obligation was on the student to learn and thus show respect and honor to his teacher.

I understand that this is generally (in this modern commercial world) an outdated concept - out dated, but not dead. I have been privileged, not by my skin color, but by good fortune, to have learned my karate outside of any monetary or business structure (since I was 17, 56 years ago).

It WAS my privilege to have been taught simply out of my 2 karate teachers' good grace (3, counting my fencing instructor, an Olympic coach) asking only for me to put forth my best effort. In fact, I struggled to find ways to repay their generosity and faith in me.

I know this is not the norm. But I feel TMA is not just another activity but carries on some threads of the past. In any case, even if a student is paying hard-earned money to learn from a great teacher, they should feel a little privileged, or at least appreciation, for being able to learn such an art. This will only serve to give further internal motivation to do their best.

Someone always has the right to not be my student.

I always have the right to not be someone’s teacher.

 

[J. Pickard]

I'm reconsidering this. I can see where it may cause resentment, hurt feelings, and a host of other problems.
This idea came from wanting more workouts. I should focus on the curriculum at hand and train more at home.
Thanks for some direction sirs.

It shouldn't cause any resentment or hurt feelings to a good and honest instructor that is teaching for reasons other than ego. As a paying customer it's your right to choose where to train. However, if you like the dojo you are in now the bringing this up to your instructor will tell you just how open you helping you learn they actually are. If they say you should wait to cross train at another dojo until you have a more solid foundation and should instead practice at home then this is a legitimate reason for them to recommend that you don't do it and even if you choose to do it and ignore their advice, you can keep a good working relationship with them. If they are genuinely insulted and tell you it's wrong or disrespectful for you to seek training outside of their dojo then you will never reach your full potential. A good sensei should encourage cross training and even group workouts with other dojo after a certain point. I host a free annual martial arts workshop where guest instructors can come and share their system with others, and I encourage all of my students to participate and even visit other schools because I want them to be their best.

 

[opr1945]

My opinion is that if you are providing something to another and they tell you it is not enought and they need it to be supplimented by another, then you are offended.

 

[Gyakuto]

With privilege comes expectations and as I often say ‘Honours and bestowments are the shackles of servitude’. I have seen too many martial artists taken into ‘special relationships’ with senior teachers (keppan and monji) with the promise of ‘special teaching’ and a steep trajectory to higher grades but to also be told how to think and to remain silent when illegal acts are uncovered by the poorbunfortunate in the course of their roles within the associations.

Here’s my surprising opinion considering my entrenchment in a very traditional martial art; that’s the way things are done in the East with their legacy of feudalism and domain lords. We’re in the West. I believe in equality…all teachings open to all students…and I believe in democracy and legality.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill Mattocks, the purpose of this is "This idea came from wanting more workouts."

I suggest working out between lessons at home. You should have plenty to practice between lessons.

 

[Cri70]

I agree, but it doesn’t seem to work like that. Many teachers consider it your privilege that they’re teaching you.

Well, it is understandable. All modern karate is a strange mix of hobby, fitness, athleticism and sport colored with pink-tinted glasses of heroism, self defense, mistery and secrecy - or at the very least with the ability of not being mugged.

When martial artists they find it's a passion and they're good at it, they may find also that they can also make a living out of that passion.

But the key is still the passion.

So it's only natural to me that while they basically offer a service against payment, many would see themselves similar to the masters of old. It's easy to forget that the masters of old had either a regular job, or their job was fighting, and not teaching.

Therefore treating their schooling "just like a business" it's offensive , because it clashes with their self image (and to be clear: I see nothing bad with that, passion is a great driver for human beings and you can achieve beautiful things by it).

It's not that different with, for example, music. Any musician starts with a passion for the art and creativity, but if them who want to make a living with their music have always to compromise somehow, and nobody likes to look at one's compromises in the face.

 

[Old CJ]

Seek permission with a submissive attitude, more permission, humble crawling-on-your-knees permission….possibly in writing for when the teacher has their ear bent by their friends and senior students.

Of course I won't be doing any of that.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Do you think it is ok to start simultaneously training at a different Shotokan dojo? What is the etiquette?

I started up this year (Mondays and Wednesdays) and have been bumped up to Yellow (one promotion).

What are your thoughts on training with a second Shotokan dojo (Tuesdays and Thursdays)? The two dojos are not affiliated or connected in any way.

Also what is the etiquette for flat out permanently switching dojos?

That seems odd. Generally speaking, belt rank up to yondan is transferrable between the major Shotokan organizations (JKA, SKIF, ISKF, ITKF, JKS, etc, etc); so getting shodan from two organizations is an inefficient use of time and money.

If you must go this route, I would look at the transferability between the dojos. If it's a go, inform both instructors and choose the one you want to rank up in, and the one in which one you're only going to be present for the extra training only. If one dojo is unaffiliated, then choose the affiliated dojo to rank up in.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

IMO, in some cases, rightfully so. Yes, once again, I express a perhaps unexpected opposite viewpoint.

Certainly, in times past when the master handpicked his students before TMA became commercialized, this was true. The teacher had no obligation to teach. The main obligation was on the student to learn and thus show respect and honor to his teacher.

I understand that this is generally (in this modern commercial world) an outdated concept - out dated, but not dead. I have been privileged, not by my skin color, but by good fortune, to have learned my karate outside of any monetary or business structure (since I was 17, 56 years ago).

It WAS my privilege to have been taught simply out of my 2 karate teachers' good grace (3, counting my fencing instructor, an Olympic coach) asking only for me to put forth my best effort. In fact, I struggled to find ways to repay their generosity and faith in me.

I know this is not the norm. But I feel TMA is not just another activity but carries on some threads of the past. In any case, even if a student is paying hard-earned money to learn from a great teacher, they should feel a little privileged, or at least appreciation, for being able to learn such an art. This will only serve to give further internal motivation to do their best.

I encourage my students to train with other people in other arts. I want my students to develop a well rounded ability that takes into account things I don’t know or teach. My goal is to produce martial artists that outclass me. I want to be a valuable ingredient in their martial arts growth.

 

[Gyakuto]

It's not that different with, for example, music. Any musician starts with a passion for the art and creativity, but if them who want to make a living with their music have always to compromise somehow, and nobody likes to look at one's compromises in the face.

There would be no issue for a student of the violin having multiple teachers or dropping one for another. One teacher wouldn’t phone all the other violin teachers in the area and suggest they not take on that poor student because they have subliminally criticised their teaching by leaving/going elsewhere.

 

[Flying Crane]

There would be no issue for a student of the violin having multiple teachers or dropping one for another. One teacher wouldn’t phone all the other violin teachers in the area and suggest they not take on that poor student because they have subliminally criticised their teaching by leaving/going elsewhere.

I’m not aware of that happening in martial arts either.

 

[Gyakuto]

I’m not aware of that happening in martial arts either.

I am and of varying degrees of this kind of behaviour. There person involved can no longer train in their country because of the influence of that teacher; nobody will take her on. She has had to give up the art. Another very senior practitioner felt he wasn’t getting the type of teaching he needed for his next and final ever grading. He formally asked for severance with a letter and a gift and request for a ‘good word’ to train with a certain Japanese 8th Dan. His teacher said he was fine about it and agreed with his request. Then he found other dojo stopped asking him to teach them; ones that previously begged for his input, Japanese teachers ignored his letters for help and without the patronage and support of an 8th Dan, he cannot pass his next grading and has failed every attempt since. There are many other examples…

 

[Flying Crane]

I am and of varying degrees of this kind of behaviour. There person involved can no longer train in their country because of the influence of that teacher; nobody will take her on. She has had to give up the art. Another very senior practitioner felt he wasn’t getting the type of teaching he needed for his next and final ever grading. He formally asked for severance with a letter and a gift and request for a ‘good word’ to train with a certain Japanese 8th Dan. His teacher said he was fine about it and agreed with his request. Then he found other dojo stopped asking him to teach them; ones that previously begged for his input, Japanese teachers ignored his letters for help and without the patronage and support of an 8th Dan, he cannot pass his next grading and has failed every attempt since. There are many other examples…

Well, without knowing more details I’ll just say that sounds like next-level bad behavior. I’ve never seen something like that happen. Is this just one organization? There are other options out there, other systems and schools that would not be beholden to those people.

 

[Cri70]

There would be no issue for a student of the violin having multiple teachers or dropping one for another. One teacher wouldn’t phone all the other violin teachers in the area and suggest they not take on that poor student because they have subliminally criticised their teaching by leaving/going elsewhere.

I was referring to the idea that dojo teachers see themselves as artists first, rather than service providers, with all the emotional baggage involved.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Those who see martial arts instruction as a business transaction will view this one way, while those who see it as something other than a business transaction will view it differently.

I don't consider my instruction to be a business transaction. I don't get paid for my teaching*. Technically the gym I teach out of is a commercial school, but the owner isn't much of a businessperson and he barely pulls in enough to keep the lights on. I teach because I love the martial arts and I love sharing things I love with other people.

I always encourage my students to visit other schools and instructors whenever they have the chance and I have more than one student who regularly cross-train at other gyms. Our gym is open 7 days per week, so the students who cross train generally do it for exposure to other arts or for a different pool of sparring partners. If I'm understanding the OP's situation, his school only offers 2 classes per week and he was hoping for more days of instruction. I'd consider that a valid motivation for training at multiple gyms and I've done the same in the past.

That said, there are instructors who get weird about cross-training and possessive of their students, so it would be worthwhile checking with his primary instructor before following that path. Also, Karate is an art with lots of material for solo practice, so the OP could very productively use those extra practice days just working kata and kihon at home.

*(I do offer private lessons for a fee when I am asked, but I charge the money primarily just to limit the time that I am giving up from my other activities. I've given plenty of spontaneous free private lessons to students who ask questions when I happen to be at the gym before or after my regular group class times.)

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't consider my instruction to be a business transaction. I don't get paid for my teaching*. Technically the gym I teach out of is a commercial school, but the owner isn't much of a businessperson and he barely pulls in enough to keep the lights on. I teach because I love the martial arts and I love sharing things I love with other people.

I always encourage my students to visit other schools and instructors whenever they have the chance and I have more than one student who regularly cross-train at other gyms. Our gym is open 7 days per week, so the students who cross train generally do it for exposure to other arts or for a different pool of sparring partners. If I'm understanding the OP's situation, his school only offers 2 classes per week and he was hoping for more days of instruction. I'd consider that a valid motivation for training at multiple gyms and I've done the same in the past.

That said, there are instructors who get weird about cross-training and possessive of their students, so it would be worthwhile checking with his primary instructor before following that path. Also, Karate is an art with lots of material for solo practice, so the OP could very productively use those extra practice days just working kata and kihon at home.

*(I do offer private lessons for a fee when I am asked, but I charge the money primarily just to limit the time that I am giving up from my other activities. I've given plenty of spontaneous free private lessons to students who ask questions when I happen to be at the gym before or after my regular group class times.)

When I wrote this I was thinking about the mindset of the student. Those who feel it is purely transactional and believe they have a right to walk in, drop some money on the counter and expect a lesson, vs. those who see this as a relationship between instructor and student, and the fees take a back seat in terms of importance. Hence my comment that I always have the right to not be someone’s teacher. If I feel someone’s expectations and demands are out of line, or they are a disruptive presence in the class, and I am unable to resolve the issue otherwise, then I have the right to not teach them and they are welcome to take their money elsewhere. Students who feel it is strictly transactional might find their options limited by teachers who view it differently and do not want them as a student. Any student who disagrees with my position is welcome to not be my student, and I would certainly never launch a campaign to smear their good name and try to get other schools to reject that person (as if some other school would take my instructions in that matter).

As I said, especially as a beginner there are plenty of reasons why it might not be a good idea to join more than one school, especially if the two schools teach the same system or a similar system. Conflicting instructions could undermine the entire process and a teacher might decide that everyone’s time is being wasted and the student ought to choose one or the other.

Later, once the student has reached some level of proficiency there can be plenty of time for cross training and for exploring other systems and other approaches within the same system. But in the beginning, focusing on one set of instructions is plenty to work on.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Conflicting instructions could undermine the entire process and a teacher might decide that everyone’s time is being wasted and the student ought to choose one or the other.

I understand this worry in theory. In my practical experience, most of the schools I've trained for my primary arts have had multiple instructors who taught very differently from each other. The underlying concepts and principles were generally the same, but the expression of those concepts through technical details and approaches to training varied considerably. I never felt like that held me back, even when I was a beginner.

At my current gym where I teach, every instructor we've had has taught differently. (And we've had up to 8 or more different instructors active at a time.) The difference has been easily as great as the average difference between instructors in two randomly selected different schools. (If you saw us mixed in with a bunch of instructors from other gyms teaching, you'd never pick out that we all came from the same school.) Yet in my experience, that has not been any sort of handicap for the students who attend classes with all the different instructors. Honestly, I think it probably helps them because they learn to understand the underlying concepts which connect our different technical execution.

I do understand that there are arts (or at least schools and organizations) where there is importance placed on having a standardized "correct" way to perform all the techniques in the curriculum. The right hand must be at precisely this height, the left foot must be turned at precisely this angle, etc. If the OP attends such a school, that could be a good reason for not cross-training with another instructor in the same art at this point in his development.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

When I wrote this I was thinking about the mindset of the student. Those who feel it is purely transactional and believe they have a right to walk in, drop some money on the counter and expect a lesson, vs. those who see this as a relationship between instructor and student, and the fees take a back seat in terms of importance. Hence my comment that I always have the right to not be someone’s teacher. If I feel someone’s expectations and demands are out of line, or they are a disruptive presence in the class, and I am unable to resolve the issue otherwise, then I have the right to not teach them and they are welcome to take their money elsewhere. Students who feel it is strictly transactional might find their options limited by teachers who view it differently and do not want them as a student. Any student who disagrees with my position is welcome to not be my student, and I would certainly never launch a campaign to smear their good name and try to get other schools to reject that person (as if some other school would take my instructions in that matter).

As I said, especially as a beginner there are plenty of reasons why it might not be a good idea to join more than one school, especially if the two schools teach the same system or a similar system. Conflicting instructions could undermine the entire process and a teacher might decide that everyone’s time is being wasted and the student ought to choose one or the other.

Later, once the student has reached some level of proficiency there can be plenty of time for cross training and for exploring other systems and other approaches within the same system. But in the beginning, focusing on one set of instructions is plenty to work on.

Well there are 5 of us that teach and or take turns teaching. We all trained together for over two decades. We all have slightly different teaching styles and focus on separate aspects but I see it as beneficial because if a student can’t get what I’m saying they might get it better from one of my training brothers. None of us is the equal of our teachers but together we 5 make a Voltron teacher!

 

[Flying Crane]

I understand this worry in theory. In my practical experience, most of the schools I've trained for my primary arts have had multiple instructors who taught very differently from each other. The underlying concepts and principles were generally the same, but the expression of those concepts through technical details and approaches to training varied considerably. I never felt like that held me back, even when I was a beginner.

At my current gym where I teach, every instructor we've had has taught differently. (And we've had up to 8 or more different instructors active at a time.) The difference has been easily as great as the average difference between instructors in two randomly selected different schools. (If you saw us mixed in with a bunch of instructors from other gyms teaching, you'd never pick out that we all came from the same school.) Yet in my experience, that has not been any sort of handicap for the students who attend classes with all the different instructors. Honestly, I think it probably helps them because they learn to understand the underlying concepts which connect our different technical execution.

I do understand that there are arts (or at least schools and organizations) where there is importance placed on having a standardized "correct" way to perform all the techniques in the curriculum. The right hand must be at precisely this height, the left foot must be turned at precisely this angle, etc. If the OP attends such a school, that could be a good reason for not cross-training with another instructor in the same art at this point in his development.

I can only speak from my experience. In the method that I teach, we have a very specific way of building the foundation, drills that are done very specifically. The system is rather rare in North America, so it isn’t like there is a big community of us that gets together, from different schools.

Many of Those schools that do exist seem to like to post their stuff on the internet. Videos of their drills and how they develop their foundation and execute techniques. From what I see, their execution can be radically different from how my sifu and his students (including me) do it, sometimes to the point that I wonder if they don’t understand the very concept of what the drill is for. Very little of what I see on the internet impresses me.

If I had a student who started attending one of these schools, and it affected his development negatively in my school, would need to say something. That is an example of where he would need to decide which school to attend because the methodology is incompatible. Maybe that school that I feel fails to understand the methodology, believes the same in return about me. That is fine, they operate from their own experience and their own comprehension of the theory. But the differences in the execution are incompatible. The student needs to pick a school, or I might decide that his insistence on attending both schools is undermining the development and wasting everyone else’s time. If he refuses to pick, then I pick for him and he is welcome to train at the other school. I don’t need him to be my student. There is no resentment. It is simply me recognizing the reality for what it is, even if he is unable to do so.