Training at Multiple Dojos?

[HighKick]

Could all these varying attitudes be down to the what the individual thinks is polite/acceptable behaviour? If you’ve been brought up to be very polite, especially toward those viewed as having a higher social position, be that through education, occupation or age, then perhaps you’ll be more likely to ask ‘permission’ to train elsewhere. If, subjectively, you’re a bit more brusque, a ‘you’re not the boss of me’ -type and have a more transactional relationship with your martial arts teacher, maybe you’ll find it’s perfectly acceptable to do as you please.

The more urbane type of person might view the transactional type of behaviour with internalised horror. The ‘you’re not the boss of me’-type will view the deferential behaviour of the urbane with incredulity. The world is made up of all sorts of people and we tend to surround ourselves with ‘birds of a feather’. Sometimes we need to look outside our bubble and try and understand, hard as that can be.

I feel you are Way over-thinking this.

I believe it is more likely that most people see everyone else as equals. No pomp and circumstance. As a matter of respect and simply of fact, there area certainly times it is appropriate to inform someone else what you plan to do.
There are countless examples and reasons for this (too many to list), but telling your instructor you are going to also practice another style is a good one. How the instructor reacts if 100% on them. A good instructor will understand, encourage, and expect you to bring some new learning back to his school.
It is easy to imagine how a self-conscious, neurotic instructor might act.

It is an informational transaction. Plain and simple.

 

[Flying Crane]

How the instructor reacts if 100% on them. A good instructor will understand, encourage, and expect you to bring some new learning back to his school.

A good instructor might react in any of a number of ways. It could be as you describe above, or it could be to wish the student well in his new endeavor while making it clear that it does not make sense for him to continue training with him, or somewhere in between as time unfolds. A lot depends on the situation.

A teacher has the right to NOT be someone’s teacher, just as a student has the right to NOT be someone’s student. I think people sometimes forget this, and jump to the conclusion that any time a teacher chooses to not teach someone, in spite of their willingness to pay fees, it means the teacher is somehow unreasonable and perhaps even a jerk. There are plenty of good reasons why a teacher might choose to not teach someone, and wasting the teacher’s time or becoming a distraction in class by displaying a lack of focus and interest, and always chasing the next shiny object is one of them.

So really, it depends.

 

[Gyakuto]

I feel you are Way over-thinking this.

That’s possible.

I believe it is more likely that most people see everyone else as equals.

That’s simply not true because we’re not. I am far superior to you with regards neuroscience, physiology, Japanese swordsmanship, wavetable synthesis etc etc and am inferior to you in….high kicking. We all have different social standings, financial standings etc etc. Humans do everything to produce hierarchies. One of the first questions asked at social gatherings (less common and even rare in Europe) is, “What’s your profession?” This is done, sometimes subconsciously to categorise others and yourself in relation to them.

No pomp and circumstance. As a matter of respect and simply of fact, there area certainly times it is appropriate to inform someone else what you plan to do.

Would you give me some examples?

There are countless examples and reasons for this (too many to list),

Tell me a few as I’m not sure what you’re getting at.
I had two tree surgeons give me a quote for removing 5 troublesome trees in my front garden. I felt obliged to tell the ‘losing quote’ that I was going with somebody else. It was the polite thing to do.

but telling your instructor you are going to also practice another style is a good one.

OK, we agreed on that.

How the instructor reacts if 100% on them.

I’m afraid I don’t understand this sentence.

A good instructor will understand, encourage, and expect you to bring some new learning back to his school.

So a transactional relationship? Isn’t that one of the categories I suggested in my post?

It is easy to imagine how a self-conscious, neurotic instructor might act.

It is an informational transaction. Plain and simple.

I think you’re simply conforming to my ‘transactional relationship’ archetype.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

One of the first questions asked at social gatherings (less common and even rare in Europe) is, “What’s your profession?” This is done, sometimes subconsciously to categorise others and yourself in relation to them.

Are you saying it's rare for people to ask this, or that it's one of the first things asked? My experience is that unless it's relevant, or on a date, it's not something really asked at social gatherings. I've got friends that I've known years and I don't actually know what their career path has been.

 

[Gyakuto]

Are you saying it's rare for people to ask this, or that it's one of the first things asked? My experience is that unless it's relevant, or on a date, it's not something really asked at social gatherings. I've got friends that I've known years and I don't actually know what their career path has been.

Yeah, in my personal experience it’s more common when I meet North American’s and Eskimos. I don’t mind being asked because my answer either sparks an interesting conversation or cuts in short instantaneously!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yeah, in my personal experience it’s more common when I meet North American’s and Eskimos. I don’t mind being asked because my answer either sparks an interesting conversation or cuts in short instantaneously!

In the late 1990s and early 2000s asking what people do for a living around here would make one a pariah immediately. An absolute no no. I have seen a bar empty out after some unknown individuals came in asking questions like that.

 

[Gyakuto]

In the late 1990s and early 2000s asking what people do for a living around here would make one a pariah immediately. An absolute no no. I have seen a bar empty out after some unknown individuals came in asking questions like that.

That’s a bit of an extreme response!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yeah, in my personal experience it’s more common when I meet North American’s and Eskimos. I don’t mind being asked because my answer either sparks an interesting conversation or cuts in short instantaneously!

I wonder if it's that people from north america traveling to you are mostly people without immediate things in common they can latch on to for a conversation, so they're hoping your answer will be one they can talk about.

 

[Gyakuto]

I wonder if it's that people from north america traveling to you are mostly people without immediate things in common they can latch on to for a conversation, so they're hoping your answer will be one they can talk about.

Why don’t they start with something less divisive like, ‘What do you think about religion?’ or ‘Trump, eh?’

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Why don’t they start with something less divisive like, ‘What do you think about religion?’ or ‘Trump, eh?’

Some will actually start off asking/talking about trump. And just kind of assume you agree with them (whether for or against) until you say otherwise.

 

[Gyakuto]

Some will actually start off asking/talking about trump. And just kind of assume you agree with them (whether for or against) until you say otherwise.

Really? I’d rather talk about the Middle East situation!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

That’s a bit of an extreme response!

Well no, the extreme response was to threaten and perhaps bludgeon the offender. I live in a very rural area that was known as the emerald triangle until Marijuana was legalized. Everyone knew everyone here and people around here were getting robbed at gunpoint after doing deals with strangers etc. Nobody was willing to talk to strangers, particularly nosey ones without a dook of an idea how to comport themselves within the social norms of the region. Asking questions like that would be like saying “ I’m from out of town and I’m searching for a victim to rob.”

 

[HighKick]

That’s simply not true because we’re not. I am far superior to you with regards neuroscience, physiology, Japanese swordsmanship, wavetable synthesis etc etc and am inferior to you in….high kicking. We all have different social standings, financial standings etc etc. Humans do everything to produce hierarchies. One of the first questions asked at social gatherings (less common and even rare in Europe) is, “What’s your profession?” This is done, sometimes subconsciously to categorise others and yourself in relation to them.

Does you superiority in a specific task make you better than the next person? Of course not. Everyone has a skillset that they may be better at than someone else, but it does not make the 'superior'. I excel in engineering, programming, VLS projects, and martial arts in many ways. But when I start throwing this around, I am exposing a self confidence issue and just overall making myself look bad. This would apply to a general conversation or general group setting. This of course changes when you apply it to a specific group like the engineers on a project or in certain martial arts settings.

Would you give me some examples?

I am scratching my head as to why this has to be explained. In you tree surgeon example, you had to inform of the work to be performed and as much safety information as you were able to provide.

Tell me a few as I’m not sure what you’re getting at.
I had two tree surgeons give me a quote for removing 5 troublesome trees in my front garden. I felt obliged to tell the ‘losing quote’ that I was going with somebody else. It was the polite thing to do.

I’m afraid I don’t understand this sentence.

You tell the instructor you are going to go train somewhere else. No ego, no pomp. How they respond it on them.

 

[Flying Crane]

You tell the instructor you are going to go train somewhere else. No ego, no pomp. How they respond it on them.

The instructor may tell you, “good luck and farewell,” also with no ego and no pomp.

 

[HighKick]

The instructor may tell you, “good luck and farewell,” also with no ego and no pomp.

If they say that, I would say there is a Lot of ego laced with it.

 

[Flying Crane]

If they say that, I would say there is a Lot of ego laced with it.

Why? A teacher has every right to not teach someone, just as a student has the right to go elsewhere, for any of a number of reasons. Why is that automatically all about ego when the teacher makes that decision? Of course it MIGHT be, but definitely not automatically.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I remember the days of "dojo wars" here, where competition between some schools was fierce, even reaching the stage of physicality or intimidation. From the movies (which I believe were based on fact) and what I've heard, this was common in Taiwan and Hong Kong. Loyalty to the school was paramount - it was both expected and given. Karate semper fi. Cross-training at another school was never an option that even came to mind. It was in a few cases, to be honest, sort of a gang mentality or at least, more commonly, a family one. Training at another school simultaneously would be much frowned on.

While what I describe above was not widespread, and I think no longer exists at least here in the US, it does reflect a frame of mind that was very common in many schools in the 60's and 70's and can be still found today. I can see cross training in a whole different system like a striker also learning grappling. But back then, there was no BJJ, Muy Thai, etc. option available. Another school usually meant another karate school - the "competition" in loyalty and business - similar to a conflict of interests and something to be avoided.

There are other reasons not to cross train similar arts connected to confusing differences in execution and principles. Also, I believe most TMA systems contain plenty of material and range of technique to have enough depth that what you're looking for in another style can probably be found in the one you're already in if you stay with it long enough.

While remaining non-judgmental of others, I'm a one dojo at a time kind of guy.

 

[HighKick]

Why? A teacher has every right to not teach someone, just as a student has the right to go elsewhere, for any of a number of reasons. Why is that automatically all about ego when the teacher makes that decision? Of course it MIGHT be, but definitely not automatically.

Let's use the term 'lack of confidence' in stead of 'ego' then.

Certainly, a business owner is within their rights to refuse service (within reason), but in a martial arts environment, any instructor/school owner who is active and confident in their product does not worry about something this trivial, and is active in looking for new training material and methods. A martial arts (or any other sport instructor) who says a student cannot train anywhere else is crossing a line and just trying to keep the 'ancient Chinese secret' crap going.

The ONLY exception is when an elite competitor contractually agrees for you to train them. Period. At this point, it becomes more about the business component.

@isshinryuronin, we have had a monthly (sometime bi-monthly) open mat night for over 20-years. It is fun, informative and great for the community at large. We spar under the rules of each style. A real eye-opener both ways. I have lost students to other schools, gained students from other schools, and have people who cross-train. Never a worry, never any controversary. More often than not, people gravitate back to our school.

We have plenty of people who come just to spectate. Good times.

 

[Buka]

I remember the days of "dojo wars" here, where competition between some schools was fierce, even reaching the stage of physicality or intimidation. From the movies (which I believe were based on fact) and what I've heard, this was common in Taiwan and Hong Kong. Loyalty to the school was paramount - it was both expected and given. Karate semper fi. Cross-training at another school was never an option that even came to mind. It was in a few cases, to be honest, sort of a gang mentality or at least, more commonly, a family one. Training at another school simultaneously would be much frowned on.

While what I describe above was not widespread, and I think no longer exists at least here in the US, it does reflect a frame of mind that was very common in many schools in the 60's and 70's and can be still found today. I can see cross training in a whole different system like a striker also learning grappling. But back then, there was no BJJ, Muy Thai, etc. option available. Another school usually meant another karate school - the "competition" in loyalty and business - similar to a conflict of interests and something to be avoided.

There are other reasons not to cross train similar arts connected to confusing differences in execution and principles. Also, I believe most TMA systems contain plenty of material and range of technique to have enough depth that what you're looking for in another style can probably be found in the one you're already in if you stay with it long enough.

While remaining non-judgmental of others, I'm a one dojo at a time kind of guy.

Dojo wars were a trip. Such an odd thing.
You never heard about donut shop wars, or the battle of laundromats.

 

[Flying Crane]

Let's use the term 'lack of confidence' in stead of 'ego' then.

Or, it has nothing whatsoever to do with either of those terms. Rather, a teacher might have little interest in spending time on someone whose attention is scattered and likely to not learn as a result. Why waste everyone’s time? As a business owner, he would be doing the student a favor: don’t spend your money here, you will not get the results you want because you are not focused on the process required. If your interests are elsewhere, go spend your time and money there.

Certainly, a business owner is within their rights to refuse service (within reason), but in a martial arts environment, any instructor/school owner who is active and confident in their product does not worry about something this trivial,

I agree, it does not worry them and sending a student away whose interests are shifting, is simply recognizing the situation for what it is, and saving everyone a bunch of wasted time and saving the student wasted money. This isn’t selling a “product”. It it teaching a method and that requires some level of focus and attention and committment, in order for success. When a student is actively looking elsewhere, if that is where his interests lie, then that is where he ought to go.

and is active in looking for new training material and methods.

Or…isn’t. Why would you make this assumption? I don’t know why people assume their students will bring in things from elsewhere that is going to somehow improve the program. Sure, it might be possible in some cases but in most, I would say it is highly unlikely. I can only speak from my experience. The method I train has a specific foundation upon which it is built, and it does not improve it to simply graft things onto it from elsewhere. It has nothing to do with a sense of purity or tradition. It is all about functionality. What is not added to the method is just as important as what is.

A martial arts (or any other sport instructor) who says a student cannot train anywhere else is crossing a line and just trying to keep the 'ancient Chinese secret' crap going.

Oh you misunderstand me: in no way am I suggesting that the teacher has the right to forbid a student from training elsewhere. However, any teacher has the right to not be that person’s teacher. He has the right to determine that dividing his focus and training is detrimental to the learning process, so he has the right to stop teaching the student if the student chooses to train elsewhere. This has nothing to do with “ancient Chinese secret crap”, as you put it. There is a very big difference between these two concepts.

The ONLY exception is when an elite competitor contractually agrees for you to train them. Period. At this point, it becomes more about the business component.

This point is irrelevant in my life. People can make a contract for whatever they want.

At the end of the day, people are free to do whatever they want. But it is a two-way street. A student may train in as many schools as he likes, but a teacher can refuse to teach if that becomes a distraction and interferes with the learning process.

If we want to make blanket statements to the effect that a teacher is insecure or egotistical for not wanting a student to train elsewhere, then we can equally make a blanket statement that a student must be a terrible failure, utterly incompetent, if he chooses to leave a school and look elsewhere. He must be looking for an easier path to get his black belt and will go to the school with the lowest standards just to wrap a piece of colored cloth around his waist.

Let’s be honest: some people fit both of these descriptions, but many do not. Neither statement is supportable as a blanket statement.