Traditional???

[Kunoichi]

I just had a thought (which is rare for me);

Is Bujinkan Ninjutsu really a traditional art? (I cant say for other branches of traditional ninjutsu as I don't know much of them).
This may seem like a strange question because of the long history behind it but it seems to be always growing and evolving through time, unlike other traditional arts such as Karate where the same kata are passed down through the generations. Ninjutsu seems to be the interpretation of the Soke and all he feels is important, plus anything else which fits modern day self-defence e.g the use of hand guns. Other traditional arts seem to be lacking in the evolution department and stick with traditions, unlike ninjutsu which adapts to the modern day lifestyle.

I've probably got the completely wrong end of the stick but still... good to get thoughts out into the open.

Thanks for your thoughts,

 

[Kunoichi]

I also ment to say that I do not really feel that it fits into the 'modern martial art' category either. It does have belts, ranks and a long history. I just feel that 'Traditional' doesn't quite fit this art.

 

[Don Roley]

For the purposes of Martialtalk the use of the term "Traditional" means that it is a Japanese art, that it has ties to Japan and built on experiences more than one generation old. Nothing more.

Hatsumi has a book out on knife and pistol fighting. Hardly the same outlook as what you see with some arts with their emphisis on keeping things exactly the same with no new innovations built on prior experence. But neither is it the same as many modern arts that have no base of combat experiece to build off of.

Again, this part of the forum is for arts that are known and practiced in Japan. If you want to discuss how to use a rifle based on the prinicples of a Japanese art like the Bujinkan, I will not come down on you as a moderator. :asian:

 

[Kreth]

I'll agree with Don on this one. Some people think of traditional systems as being somewhat stagnant, unable to adapt to modern situations or equipment. I think if, as a practitioner, you focus on technique, then that might be the case. However, if you focus more on the feeling of a technique, then you should be able to adapt it as needed. For example, we have techniques in the Bujinkan intended to prevent an opponent from drawing our sword during and using it against us. Is it really that much of a stretch to apply the same principle to pistol retention?

Jeff

 

[Don Roley]

For example, we have techniques in the Bujinkan intended to prevent an opponent from drawing our sword during and using it against us. Is it really that much of a stretch to apply the same principle to pistol retention?

Good point.

I think I should point out (as someone who has a reputation as being able to speak Japanese) is that the "ryu" in things like "Togakure ryu " or "Koto ryu" is written with the charecter "to flow".

Imagine a river as it goes down to the sea. It is not quite the same as it was hundreds of kilometers away in the mountains. It adapts to the terrain, gains strength and flows on its way.

The big thing about arts like the Bujinkan is that you have a good deal of experience behind you in physical aspects. A wise man learns from his experiences. But when you take the experiences of those that have gone before you, you can spend less time trying to re-invent the wheel.

And if you try to keep the principles intact (What Kreth and Hatsumi call "feeling") you can change the applications of those principles to the modern age. In fact, the soke was supposed to make changes in the art to keep it applicable to whatever age it existed in. One person from every generation was chosen by the previous soke to serve not only as the head of the art, but to choose where it would go and how it would change. The person who had the best knowledge of the principles had the responsibility of updating the applications and adding to the knowledge of the tradition.

Sadly, when Japan was brought into the modern age by Perry and the West, there was a lot thrown out in the scramble to catch up with the military might of the outside world. On the other hand, there were a lot of arts that decided to keep what they did as a link to the "Japaneseness" and little more.

But there were others that kept the outlook that there were things of value in the lessons of the past if only there were people willing to search for it. I have had the chance to study a lot of arts while I have lived in Japan. I train in the Bujinkan because it is not one of those arts that won't bother to think about how to prevent a guy from drawing a gun, and it is not one of those arts that bills itself as modern and new- but have no experience to build on.

 

[Kreth]

(What Kreth and Hatsumi call "feeling")

Um, how about we reword this to: "What Kreth mumbled about in his post and Hatsumi teaches"? That way it doesn't sound like you're referring to us in the same context...

Jeff

 

[Don Roley]

Um, how about we reword this to: "What Kreth mumbled about in his post and Hatsumi teaches"? That way it doesn't sound like you're referring to us in the same context...

All hail the great Kreth!!! Soke of Biiru-ryu!!!
:bow:

But seriously. For the purposes of this board "traditional" only means that an art is verifiably Japanese. It does not mean that we have to do things in a traditonal way. Some of us consider a "traditional ninja weapon" to mean a revolver rather than a Glock.

I have been thinking all day of a better term to use for an art like the Bujinkan, etc, that uses the lessons of it's history instead of having to reinvent the wheel. Does anyone have an idea?

 

[Kunoichi]

I'm stumped for a better term to describe it.

It was nice to have it clarified for me though, as I read through the post in the general room about 'modern vs traditional' and compared to all other arts, ninjutsu doesnt nicely slot into either. I suppose its a bit of an outcast, just like it always has been

Thanx

 

[heretic888]

Heh. How about 'Darwinian'??

:uhyeah: :uhyeah: :uhyeah:

 

[NYCRonin]

Although Don is a much more current source for this subject, I do have some wonderful memories of working with the Soke Hatsumi and the crew that was around in the U.S. back in the 80's. To me, what was always so special about those days was that traditional was intermixed with evolution. The gun and knife books Don mentions are in my library....and the 'work' there is far from ancient....and as relevent as today. When I think of Hatsumi and Nin-po, 'traditional' = lineage....and includes the 'evolution' that the changes in time bring to any true 'warrior way'.
I remember a quote from a book I read as a child 'Zen Combat'..and in there, someone stated that: "If the feudal period in Japan had lasted long enough, we would have ryu that included the bicycle chain and the broken beer bottle". Frankly, I believe thats true.
There is a very BIG difference between practicing an art that is frozen in time and a certain cultural mood of that time...and learning from a 'living tradition'.
With deep roots in the past, a true warrior way has its 'trunk' in the present...and extends its branches up to the next days sun.

Just a few thoughts on the subject, submitted respectfully.

 

[Dale Seago]

There is a very BIG difference between practicing an art that is frozen in time and a certain cultural mood of that time...and learning from a 'living tradition'.
With deep roots in the past, a true warrior way has its 'trunk' in the present...and extends its branches up to the next days sun.

Very well put, Rob -- thanks!

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

If you can't fight with a traditional art, it's not traditional enough.