traditional/Neo

[heretic888]

Ninjutsu itself is a small specialized science dealing with the gathering and usage of information, strategy, espionage, etc. Judging from that we can clearly see that most people claiming to practice ninjutsu really don't. Strategy and information gathering has extremely little to do with punches, kicks, throws, strangulations, sweeps, takedowns and the like - even though the philosophy behind it all may be connected to the aforementioned strategy, bodily movements in and of themselves are not ninjutsu and never will be...regardless of how much one would like it to be so.

As it was explained to me, ninjutsu (a la Togakure ryu) is really more something you learn to "add to" or "polish off" prior combatic teachings (a la Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu). I've been told more than once that "ninjutsu" somewhat assumes previous training in a ryuha more oriented toward overt combat, and "adds" elements of strategy, philosophy, tactics, deception, and so forth to those teachings.

A ninjutsu system that would focus almost entirely on overt hand-to-hand combat would just seem.... odd. In my opinion. :asian:

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Which is exactly why I wrote that most people claiming to practice "ninjutsu" don't.

And you're absolutely right - there is no ninjutsu without taijutsu. Heck, if uncle H thought as highly of people's taijutsu as we'd like him to, he'd probably revealed a whole lot more of ninjutsu by now...

 

[sojobow]

Technically its 3...

Togakure Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu, Those are loose guidelines... perhaps one of the more experienced Ninja folk could expand on that or correct me if I am wrong...

Technically, its Zero (0). There are no "Ninja" alive today and it looks as though there hasn't been a live "Ninja" for hundreds of years. This opinion was explained to me recently and I believe the person is correct. Helps me put a lot of things in perspective. Even, as you say: "perhaps one of the more experienced Ninja Folk could......," that answer would have to come from a dead person. The same is true, IMO, of the Samurai.

To add to your 3 Ryu answer above, (Toga, Jumo, Gyok), I don't think any of them (or any other school today) can lead anyone to the state of being a "Ninja." All they can do is teach us what "they think." No one alive knows, but they can teach us to mimic only what they think existed 500 years ago (and most schools don't even try to teach actual Ninjutsu anyway). (I'm gonna take the hit for this one - let it rip guys, I deserve it)

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Nice move there, interchanging the discussion topics ninja and ninjutsu. Afraid it doesn't get us anywhere though.

 

[heretic888]

Nimravus is right. The topic was ninjutsu. Not your fictional 'ninja'.

 

[sojobow]

Nice move there, interchanging the discussion topics ninja and ninjutsu. Afraid it doesn't get us anywhere though.

Actually, the conversation between Techno and myself was on the subject of Ninja and not ninjutsu.

Are not all martial arts practiced today a "bunch of stuff taken from somebody else?" Not sure if the original ninjutsu actually exist today, especially in America. According to this Section, all Koga is dead and only one Iga exist. I guess first you'll have to find out if there is a "Ninja" alive and teaching today and enroll in his school.

Note the word "Ninja." I guess first you'll have to find out if there is a "Ninja" alive and teaching today and enroll in his school.[/a"]: "

The Technopunk brought up the three Ryu with this:

Technically its 3...
Togakure Ryu, which is characterized by wide and Low stances, and the "Three treasures"
Kumogakure Ryu, which is characterized by jumping and leaping combat techniques and survival and evasion tactics, as well as headbutts and other attacks not common to Togakure Ruy
Gyokushin Ryu, which is characterized by its espianage teachings.
Those are loose guidelines... perhaps one of the more experienced Ninja folk could expand on that or correct me if I am wrong...

Note the "Ninja folk'" in Techno's last sentence. Thus, the three-way conversation

Hey how come everyone is all caught up on what is what and whose is better (no offense). There are two fundamental ways that you would want to learn ninjutsu: you either want to become a ninja like in the old days of Japan (the weird thing is im black) or you want to learn it for self defense. Most people want do it to learn how to defend themself which is alright.

You will also note the "ninja" is part of the opening threads discussion. (see second sentence).

 

[Don Roley]

Ah, let me try to stop this distraction right here.

There are no more samurai after the decree by the Meiji goverment abolished their class. But you can find living traditions passed down from them even today. There are no ninja today, but the same thing about living tradtions can be said.

If you want to find out what the ninja would do, you should be asking those that study the traditions being taught in Japan. You should not be looking for someone to announce that they are spies that use swords and throwing stars in the modern age.

Does that clarify things enough?

 

[Cryozombie]

Technically, its Zero (0). There are no "Ninja" alive today and it looks as though there hasn't been a live "Ninja" for hundreds of years.

Actually, if you take the stance that Takamatsu sensei was in fact the "Last Ninja" , its only been 30 years or so...

And to clarify my position, when I refer to "Ninja Folk" I am referring to Ninjutsu Students in general.

 

[sojobow]

Actually, if you take the stance that Takamatsu sensei was in fact the "Last Ninja" , its only been 30 years or so...

And to clarify my position, when I refer to "Ninja Folk" I am referring to Ninjutsu Students in general.

Not important. Who knows who the "Last Ninja" was. The last of them perished hundreds of years ago.

 

[Seig]

Stop being argumentative
Seig
MT OPS Admin

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Even if you don't want to see Takamatsu sensei as the last living ninja, Toda sensei and Ishitani sensei both died in the 20th century as far as I know.

 

[heretic888]

Methinks a few qualifiers might need to be added.

The reason that Takamatsu is often hailed as the "last ninja" is because he is the last ninjutsu master to have applied his skills to war. The term I have more often heard is "last combat ninja".

*shrugs* That's how I took it, anyway.

 

[Cryozombie]

The reason that Takamatsu is often hailed as the "last ninja" is because he is the last ninjutsu master to have applied his skills to war. The term I have more often heard is "last combat ninja".

I agree, that's how I heard it as well. of course, a lot of people hold the idea that modern practitioners of the art are NOT Ninja, and if you consider that viewpoint, than wouldnt that make him the "last ninja"?

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Don Roley: "There are no ninja today, but the same thing about living tradtions can be said."

What do you think about the use of the term "ninja" to refer to someone who practices ninjutsu? Of course there are no more ninja / shinobi no mono / etc. like there was in the past, so would the word acquire a new definition in our modern context (even in a slang-like capacity)?

Or would it be more correct to call a ninjutsu practicioner a "ninjutsuka" (a al kareteka, aikidoka, judoka etc.)?

Or would it be more correct - and easier to say - "budoka" to refer to modern practicioners of ninjutsu, since what they train in includes much more than ninjutsu?

 

[Don Roley]

What do you think about the use of the term "ninja" to refer to someone who practices ninjutsu?

Kind of like refering to a student of Katori Shinto ryu as a "samurai." In other words, a little silly.

I prefer your use of "budoka". But I most often use the term "Taijutsuka."

 

[Kreth]

As the majority of the x-kan training is more focused on "mainstream" budo than espionage, I don't think anyone (with the exception of Hatsumi sensei and perhaps the Japanese shihan) would be correct in referring to themselves as a ninja.

Jeff

 

[sojobow]

As the majority of the x-kan training is more focused on "mainstream" budo than espionage, I don't think anyone (with the exception of Hatsumi sensei and perhaps the Japanese shihan) would be correct in referring to themselves as a ninja. Jeff

Two thoughts. Both revised my thinking on the subject.

Item 1.) " ...... if I crawl around on all fours, bark, lick my balls, and chase cats, I truly AM a dog." K.

Make the above a question instead of a statement. End the sentence with ", am I truly a dog?"

Thus: "..... if I crawl around on all fours, bark, lick my balls, and chase cats, am I truly a dog? Point is, regardless of what we train in, or what we teach, we "ain't" no Ninja nor are we studying the art of the Ninja. What I study is what my sensei teaches. What you study is what your teacher teaches. Nothing more, nothing less. You can easily prove me wrong by simply proving that what you learn is truly the art of the shinobi. I would think the best evidence to prove that anyone studies the art of the shinobi is to present to us a real live shinobi. But since they all died hundreds of years ago, kind of hard to prove anything.

Item 2: "If you were to don a black hat and coat, grow a beard and go to temple everyday and pray, would yolu be a jew? No. Can you join a group by mimiking them? No. So no matter how much you achieve the attributes of a ninja (no matter what they are), you are not a ninja. "

Note the quotation marks!

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

It seems as if sojobow refers to "shinobi" as an ethnic group of people who died out centuries ago. It ain't that simple. Having said that, Bujinkan members can hardly be called ninja.

 

[Bester]

What part do they cut off to make you a ninja?

 

[Cryozombie]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation to a kid-safe level.

-Technopunk
-MT Moderator-