Traditional v modern

[Gweilo]

well yes it is difficult to understand as you won't tell us, it's several days since you said modern, in this case systema is much better than TMA and you still haven't spelled out why you think that is so.

that's not the prevailing view on how to get stronger, when you start making up your own science, is when it seems your envoking magic, which is what some tmas get accused
of

If you go back to my first post, I never claimed Systema was better, I asked for people's views on Traditional v Modern. I claimed I had been thinking recently

 

[jobo]

More powerful than other MA, that would be an arrogant claim, we just use a different way to strike, no tension, at all, never tension, always relaxed and with correct breathing, let me tell you, there is a gentleman who lives in Wiltshire u.k, (Matt Hill) he holds a 5th Dan in Aikido, he spent two years as a live in student/servant with Saito Sensei, he is one of a few westerners to teach Aikido to Japanese in Japan, he was also a Captain in the Para's, He eat slept and tom titted Aikido, not a silly man, somewhere around 2000 he met Vladamir Vasilev (co founder of Systema), he now is a top instructor in Systema and has his own school, ask yourself why would he change arts?; I am not claiming Systema is the best MA, but it ain't mickey mouse either, and we don't blow up fuel depots lol

no you said systema was better than tmas, and you also said relaxed exercise made you stronger than tensing muscles,

someone giving up aikido to study systema ?? of all the arts that get accused of claiming magic, aikido is near the top,

 

[jobo]

If you go back to my first post, I never claimed Systema was better, I asked for people's views on Traditional v Modern. I claimed I had been thinking recently

do you or don't you think systema better equips you for self defence than tmas, ? that was clearly the subtext if your post, if you changed your mind, fair enough

 

[Gweilo]

Tell me the number of the post I made the claim of Systema is better than TMA, and yes I believe Systema better equips me for self defense than the 2 other arts I have trained in.

 

[Gweilo]

Ok. Can you test that these Systema guys are empirically stronger than anyone else?

I mean it should be easy. Just see how much weight they can lift. Or push or hit or something.

Because I have always only ever seen these techniques on people. Which could be faked.

Try youtube search for DK Yoo

 

[dvcochran]

If it is, then it's good to see him get back up after that big lose he took. Can't knock him for that.

The only thing I don't like, and I know this is a personal bias for me. "Do what you train"

• Don't train kickboxing and throw away Tai Chi.
  
• Train Tai Chi against kickboxing and learn to be better at Tai Chi.

If you are doing kickboxing then you aren't doing Tai Chi. I'm looking at his footwork and where he is placing his feet. Look at 0:10 it appears he is in good position to take the root of his sparring partner by sweeping that front leg but he can't because his weight is on the front leg. A TMA approach would have given him the opportunity to do so (those who sweep understand). It also appears that he's practicing stepping on people's feet. I'm not a big fan of it because it doesn't give a big reward unless you are pressing and trying to keep your opponent from escaping. If you get it wrong, then you could lose your root. You can see this happen in the video at 0:13 and again at 0:14.

The only exception to my "Do what you train" mindset is when what you train isn't made for fighting. If he was doing the "fitness Tai Chi" then yeah, congrats on doing something made for fighting, kickboxing. If he was training (I hate term) "combat Tai Chi" or "Applicable Tai Chi" then he should be working those techniques and not abandoning them. Either way it's good to seem him take a loss like this. Something I used to say as a kid when I "beat the socks" off of my friend in a game. "Let defeat make you better, not bitter."

This is said to be the same person.

If this is him then it looks like he's enjoying sparring and probably wished he did it a lot sooner. Sparring is an excellent workout. 99% of the people I've trained, who have done sparring, enjoy it. It looks like he has some decent people working with him.

I did not see any Kung Fu until the very end. The never ending set of haymakers at the beginning was, I don't know what.
The series of backfist near the middle of the match would have had an effect bare knuckle but I doubt the match would have went that lone had that been the case.

 

[Gweilo]

you also said relaxed exercise made you stronger than tensing muscles

I Believe this to be true, but it is the way we train, try the following, it takes time to perfect, do 1 push up (5 SECOND DOWN THEN 5 SECOND UP) try to be as relaxed as possible but the 1st rep you must breath in so the breath last for the whole push up, then 1 rep holding a full breath, 1 rep on an exhale, 1 rep on an empty hold, keep relaxed, then 2 push ups with the breath lasting for the 2 push ups, repeat with the full hold, exhale, empty hold, see if you can get up to 5 push ups, relaxed means no tension in the shoulders, bicep, neck etc, give it a go. In class we do this, then with sit ups, a leg raise (feet over the head and to the floor) then squats, then chin ups, have a go.

 

[jobo]

I Believe this to be true, but it is the way we train, try the following, it takes time to perfect, do 1 push up (5 SECOND DOWN THEN 5 SECOND UP) try to be as relaxed as possible but the 1st rep you must breath in so the breath last for the whole push up, then 1 rep holding a full breath, 1 rep on an exhale, 1 rep on an empty hold, keep relaxed, then 2 push ups with the breath lasting for the 2 push ups, repeat with the full hold, exhale, empty hold, see if you can get up to 5 push ups, relaxed means no tension in the shoulders, bicep, neck etc, give it a go. In class we do that this makes you stron this, then with sit ups, a leg raise (feet over the head and to the floor) then squats, then chin ups, have a go.

yes I know you believe it, the question was really why do you believe it, ? is this based on some research, some properly conducted experiment or just that they told you so and you accepted with out question, that this makes you stronger than say a strength training program?

 

[Steve]

Would this be the case to create uniformity, I am not an expert on US military, but after the initial recruitment process, I wonder if it is the same for special forces training?

I guess we will never know.

 

[Steve]

Have we agreed on what we all mean by traditional and modern?

 

[jobo]

Have we agreed on what we all mean by traditional and modern?

no the question was ducked

 

[Gweilo]

yes I know you believe it, the question was really why do you believe it, ? is this based on some research, some properly conducted experiment or just that they told you so and you accepted with out question, that this makes you stronger than say a strength training program?

I have only trained in Systema for 3 years, I am stronger than when I was 30, I am fitter, I can move better than when I was 30, I do not have scientific research, I will ask to see if any is available, but I fear it will still not satisfy you.

 

[jobo]

I have only trained in Systema for 3 years, I am stronger than when I was 30, I am fitter, I can move better than when I was 30, I do not have scientific research, I will ask to see if any is available, but I fear it will still not satisfy you.

well exercise any exercise will likely improve your strength to some degree in some muscles, but to suggest that systema exercises will make you stronger that a strength building program that maximises contraction in as many muscles as possible is a different matter.

then of course it depends how you are measuring strength, I'd like to see you push a car uphill with out tensing an awful lot of muscles in the process, muscles that would be to weak for the job, if you hadn't been tensing them otherwise, in preparation, or even just tell me that you have doubled your dead lift weight, with out tensing your muscles doing dead lifts

 

[jobo]

I did not see any Kung Fu until the very end. The never ending set of haymakers at the beginning was, I don't know what.
The series of backfist near the middle of the match would have had an effect bare knuckle but I doubt the match would have went that lone had that been the case.

that's not surprising as he is a tai chi master

 

[JowGaWolf]

Try youtube search for DK Yoo

Watch DK YOO spar and you'll see very little of what he showcases as his skill sets.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I did not see any Kung Fu until the very end. The never ending set of haymakers at the beginning was, I don't know what.
The series of backfist near the middle of the match would have had an effect bare knuckle but I doubt the match would have went that lone had that been the case.

There was no kung fu from what I could tell. He still had beginner skill level performance. In my opinion too soon to be in front of the camera.

 

[drop bear]

If it is, then it's good to see him get back up after that big lose he took. Can't knock him for that.

The only thing I don't like, and I know this is a personal bias for me. "Do what you train"

• Don't train kickboxing and throw away Tai Chi.
  
• Train Tai Chi against kickboxing and learn to be better at Tai Chi.

If you are doing kickboxing then you aren't doing Tai Chi. I'm looking at his footwork and where he is placing his feet. Look at 0:10 it appears he is in good position to take the root of his sparring partner by sweeping that front leg but he can't because his weight is on the front leg. A TMA approach would have given him the opportunity to do so (those who sweep understand). It also appears that he's practicing stepping on people's feet. I'm not a big fan of it because it doesn't give a big reward unless you are pressing and trying to keep your opponent from escaping. If you get it wrong, then you could lose your root. You can see this happen in the video at 0:13 and again at 0:14.

The only exception to my "Do what you train" mindset is when what you train isn't made for fighting. If he was doing the "fitness Tai Chi" then yeah, congrats on doing something made for fighting, kickboxing. If he was training (I hate term) "combat Tai Chi" or "Applicable Tai Chi" then he should be working those techniques and not abandoning them. Either way it's good to seem him take a loss like this. Something I used to say as a kid when I "beat the socks" off of my friend in a game. "Let defeat make you better, not bitter."

This is said to be the same person.

If this is him then it looks like he's enjoying sparring and probably wished he did it a lot sooner. Sparring is an excellent workout. 99% of the people I've trained, who have done sparring, enjoy it. It looks like he has some decent people working with him.

It would be an interesting journey for him.

 

[Gweilo]

Watch DK YOO spar and you'll see very little of what he showcases as his skill sets.

There are some on youtube where he slows the process down, if you cannot find them by searching his name, check out systemas the channel of all systema .

 

[Gweilo]

well exercise any exercise will likely improve your strength to some degree in some muscles, but to suggest that systema exercises will make you stronger that a strength building program that maximises contraction in as many muscles as possible is a different matter.

then of course it depends how you are measuring strength, I'd like to see you push a car uphill with out tensing an awful lot of muscles in the process, muscles that would be to weak for the job, if you hadn't been tensing them otherwise, in preparation, or even just tell me that you have doubled your dead lift weight, with out tensing your muscles doing dead lifts

Like I said if you do not train in Systema it is very difficult to understand, let's just disagree shall we

 

[jobo]

Like I said if you do not train in Systema it is very difficult to understand, let's just disagree shall we

I though you wanted to discuss the relative merits of systema v tmas ?