Traditional v modern

[Gweilo]

so back to your original, point, if we accept being a ninja is possibly outdated, sword art and tieing your horse up to make a quick escape.

what modern benefits does systema give you over say karate ?

The benefits of systema for me are freedom, it is difficult to explain in a short post, no fixed positions, katas etc, we work on old principles in a modern way, the most difficult to grasp is the no tension, to strike without tension.
We have 2 types of class, combat and health. The student is also encouraged to use Systema principles and movement in everyday life, so in essence the practioner is training all day every day. Like I said many people who do not train in Systema, find it difficult to understand and watching youtube videos does not help them

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I could not hit agree after the line about "hidden techniques". There are advanced techniques that are taught at advanced ranks, but most any technique can be at least mildly dangerous if done carelessly. The more technical the move, the greater risk of injury to the giver or the receiver. Ideas like this that still try to hold MA in a mystic realm just need to die. Do I believe there are skills that are extraordinary and seldom mastered? Yes. Partly because they are not understood therefore not taught or practiced, partly because they take a very long time to perfect. Only the opportunist still try to hold these moves under the "ancient Chinese secret" banner.
What cannot be denied is that over time man has learned, analyzed, broken down, challenged, refined, and yes improved MA. The way of the world, finding the shortest distance a point has gave rise to styles like MMA that is an amalgam of most all MA. Stripping down systems and only using the fighting elements. Great for its intended purpose and not much else. I believe as we continue to analyze and realize all the benefits of most TMA, an even greater understanding of their original intended purposes will be realized and practiced. IMHO.

I agree. At least in my dojo, there are no secret scrolls. No hidden techniques. Just advanced application which becomes clearer after years of practice. Does the instructor know techniques in the kata which they do not share with all students at every level? Certainly. One first learns to do basic arithmetic before quantum mechanics. And most never get to the quantum mechanics part, which is fine.

I suspect that much of the hocus pocus stuff comes about from generations of teachers who never got more than the surface level stuff and therefore cannot pass on what they themselves do not know. And even this is fine, not all teachers of mathematics know all there is to know, they don't need to in order to pass on the basics.

What typically happens to me is that after years of doing the same kata, I notice sensei doing something that I do not, having missed it before. I ask and get an explanation and demonstration. Why is it not explicitly taught to all? Because it doesn't matter to most levels. When you understand enough to see it, you're ready to learn it. No secrets, but you can't read the pages of the next chapter until you finish the chapter you're currently reading. Skip ahead and things start to not make sense.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The benefits of systema for me are freedom, it is difficult to explain in a short post, no fixed positions, katas etc, we work on old principles in a modern way, the most difficult to grasp is the no tension, to strike without tension.
We have 2 types of class, combat and health. The student is also encouraged to use Systema principles and movement in everyday life, so in essence the practioner is training all day every day. Like I said many people who do not train in Systema, find it difficult to understand and watching youtube videos does not help them

Isshinryu emphasizes normal stances, relaxed postures, and chinkuchi, the tightness of the muscles upon impact. There's nothing new here, many styles know these principles.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But those can still be practiced by a combination of slower practice, faster practice without full resistance (not trying to stop the technique once started)

Techniques like that are dangerous are often dangerous because the more effort a person puts in resisting it the easier the joints breaks. In some cases pulling an arm back or twisting it aids in the destruction of a joint. Unfortunately pulling an arm back or twisting it is a natural human reaction.

I have seen no evidence that something like paying attention to the details of belt-uniform tying is at all related to the detail observation for fighting.

We would have to actually look at military training in order to determine this. No one pays more attention to detail than they do.

Maybe someone with military knowledge can add some historical insight?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

GPSEYMOUR SAID: ↑
I have seen no evidence that something like paying attention to the details of belt-uniform tying is at all related to the detail observation for fighting.

We would have to actually look at military training in order to determine this. No one pays more attention to detail than they do.

Maybe someone with military knowledge can add some historical insight?

There are many reasons for extreme attention to detail in the military. Even the word, 'uniform' can also be defined as 'all the same'. The same means exactly that, to a very high degree. Another reason is tradition. Another is that public appearance often adds to the appeal of a given military service in the eyes of prospective recruits. There is something about a US Marine Dress Blue uniform that draws positive comments and admiration. However, even that uniform can be worn in a slovenly fashion, and when this happens, we Marines feel it reflects badly on all of us. We call it 'Esprit de Corps'.

Does it make a person a better fighter if they do not pay attention to the details of tying an obi (belt)?

Maybe.

For one thing, and improperly-tied obi can fall off, and depending on when it does that, the results may be less than ideal.

For another, like the military, a dojo filled with students who are all dressed in the same uniform, looking sharp and moving in unison presents a positive appearance to visitors. Let's face it, we have to add new members too.

For another, learning to spot differences and notice small details can also sharpen one's skills for noticing other things, such as openings in a defense during sparring.

Frankly, I would not get too upset if people wanted to insist that uniforms and correct knots in obis or whatever are not important to training. Fine, fine, whatever. It's not something care that much about for other people. Do as you wish in your own dojo. Let us do as we wish in ours.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There are many reasons for extreme attention to detail in the military. Even the word, 'uniform' can also be defined as 'all the same'. The same means exactly that, to a very high degree. Another reason is tradition. Another is that public appearance often adds to the appeal of a given military service in the eyes of prospective recruits. There is something about a US Marine Dress Blue uniform that draws positive comments and admiration. However, even that uniform can be worn in a slovenly fashion, and when this happens, we Marines feel it reflects badly on all of us. We call it 'Esprit de Corps'.

Does it make a person a better fighter if they do not pay attention to the details of tying an obi (belt)?

Maybe.

For one thing, and improperly-tied obi can fall off, and depending on when it does that, the results may be less than ideal.

For another, like the military, a dojo filled with students who are all dressed in the same uniform, looking sharp and moving in unison presents a positive appearance to visitors. Let's face it, we have to add new members too.

For another, learning to spot differences and notice small details can also sharpen one's skills for noticing other things, such as openings in a defense during sparring.

Frankly, I would not get too upset if people wanted to insist that uniforms and correct knots in obis or whatever are not important to training. Fine, fine, whatever. It's not something care that much about for other people. Do as you wish in your own dojo. Let us do as we wish in ours.

Thank you for sharing the military experience. Much appreciated. As to the dojo, I can only speak for the school I taught in. We didn't have belts most of the awareness to the detail awareness I did was in making students aware of bad stances that put their knees at risk for joint damage. I was also super aware to the details of students approach to an attack. I hope I have some videos like that of me teaching. I probably went overboard with it, but it was something that really stood out to me. For me the smaller things stood out to me more than the bigger errors. I guess I looked at the bigger errors as something I could "let pass" for a while as I chipped away at it. The smaller ones for me were like. "Stop right now fix it."

 

[Gweilo]

Isshinryu emphasizes normal stances, relaxed postures, and chinkuchi, the tightness of the muscles upon impact. There's nothing new here, many styles know these principles.

I am not familiar with this style of Karate, are there relaxed stances for certain techniques or a constant throughout the art as it is in Systema.
For example in Systema a press up is done on the fist, the downward smooth constant movement last 15 seconds as does the up movement, this is done whilst breathing in (yes 30 seconds breathing in), this is done with no tension and at any time you can pause and open the fist to form an L shape, the press up in the repeated but with an out breath

 

[drop bear]

Techniques like that are dangerous are often dangerous because the more effort a person puts in resisting it the easier the joints breaks. In some cases pulling an arm back or twisting it aids in the destruction of a joint. Unfortunately pulling an arm back or twisting it is a natural human reaction.

We would have to actually look at military training in order to determine this. No one pays more attention to detail than they do.

Maybe someone with military knowledge can add some historical insight?

The thing is there is an expectation of behavior regardless of the club that is supposed to be more important than the self.

That could be uniform and ritual. That could be making weight.

And you need that sense of composure to fight properly.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I am not familiar with this style of Karate, are there relaxed stances for certain techniques or a constant throughout the art as it is in Systema.
For example in Systema a press up is done on the fist, the downward smooth constant movement last 15 seconds as does the up movement, this is done whilst breathing in (yes 30 seconds breathing in), this is done with no tension and at any time you can pause and open the fist to form an L shape, the press up in the repeated but with an out breath

All stances are higher and more relaxed than most other forms of karate. Fist remains relaxed until impact. Google chinkuchi.

 

[Gweilo]

Thank you Bill Mattocks for your information, I googled Chinkuchi, and had a excellent read, it is similar to a degree, but in Systema we strive to be tension free and relaxed at all times, in training in striking and in receiving.

 

[jobo]

Thank you Bill Mattocks for your information, I googled Chinkuchi, and had a excellent read, it is similar to a degree, but in Systema we strive to be tension free and relaxed at all times, in training in striking and in receiving.

but relaxation, / yeiding, absorbing/ redirecting force is common in many martial arts, it's not a modern thing. I'd go as far as to say that relaxation to the max permittable is the key to any athletic movement or excessive tension is the killer, . it burns a massive amount of energy and really hampers power generation and speed.

but, then to get the most benefit out if certain exercises, it's helpful to hold as many muscles as possible in tension, to build their stengh. a relaxed push up for instance, is good for doing lots of push ups, a rigid push up, with ever muscle held in tension is better for building strength in as many muscles as possible, eveno to the point of tryingof force your hands together through the earth

 

[JowGaWolf]

but relaxation, / yeiding, absorbing/ redirecting force is common in many martial arts, it's not a modern thing. I'd go as far as to say that relaxation to the max permittable is the key to any athletic movement or excessive tension is the killer, . it burns a massive amount of energy and really hampers power generation and speed.

but, then to get the most benefit out if certain exercises, it's helpful to hold as many muscles as possible in tension, to build their stengh. a relaxed push up for instance, is good for doing lots of push ups, a rigid push up, with ever muscle held in tension is better for building strength in as many muscles as possible, eveno to the point of tryingof force your hands together through the earth

I like this version of Jobo. Why so serious today?

 

[Steve]

We would have to actually look at military training in order to determine this. No one pays more attention to detail than they do.

Maybe someone with military knowledge can add some historical insight?

When I was in basic training, we ironed our underwear into perfect, 6 inch wide folds, and all that stuff. The prevailing wisdom of the time was, if you can't be trusted to fold something correctly, how could they trust you with a missile or to work on an F-16.

I do not know for sure, but have been told that the process is a bit different now since the Desert Storm era when I was an Airman, with less emphasis on arbitrary details, and more on critical thinking, performance under pressure, and team building.

 

[Gweilo]

but relaxation, / yeiding, absorbing/ redirecting force is common in many martial arts, it's not a modern thing.

This I agree with

a relaxed push up for instance, is good for doing lots of push ups, a rigid push up, with ever muscle held in tension is better for building strength i

This not so much, yes for the muscle building but not for strength, like I said in an earlier post, unless you train in Systema it is difficult to understand.

I do not know for sure, but have been told that the process is a bit different now since the Desert Storm era when I was an Airman, with less emphasis on arbitrary details, and more on critical thinking, performance under pressure, and team building.

Would this be the case to create uniformity, I am not an expert on US military, but after the initial recruitment process, I wonder if it is the same for special forces training?

 

[drop bear]

This not so much, yes for the muscle building but not for strength, like I said in an earlier post, unless you train in Systema it is difficult to understand.

Ok. Can you test that these Systema guys are empirically stronger than anyone else?

I mean it should be easy. Just see how much weight they can lift. Or push or hit or something.

Because I have always only ever seen these techniques on people. Which could be faked.

 

[drop bear]

Not sure if legit. But interesting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not sure if legit. But interesting.

If it is, then it's good to see him get back up after that big lose he took. Can't knock him for that.

The only thing I don't like, and I know this is a personal bias for me. "Do what you train"

• Don't train kickboxing and throw away Tai Chi.
  
• Train Tai Chi against kickboxing and learn to be better at Tai Chi.

If you are doing kickboxing then you aren't doing Tai Chi. I'm looking at his footwork and where he is placing his feet. Look at 0:10 it appears he is in good position to take the root of his sparring partner by sweeping that front leg but he can't because his weight is on the front leg. A TMA approach would have given him the opportunity to do so (those who sweep understand). It also appears that he's practicing stepping on people's feet. I'm not a big fan of it because it doesn't give a big reward unless you are pressing and trying to keep your opponent from escaping. If you get it wrong, then you could lose your root. You can see this happen in the video at 0:13 and again at 0:14.

The only exception to my "Do what you train" mindset is when what you train isn't made for fighting. If he was doing the "fitness Tai Chi" then yeah, congrats on doing something made for fighting, kickboxing. If he was training (I hate term) "combat Tai Chi" or "Applicable Tai Chi" then he should be working those techniques and not abandoning them. Either way it's good to seem him take a loss like this. Something I used to say as a kid when I "beat the socks" off of my friend in a game. "Let defeat make you better, not bitter."

This is said to be the same person.

If this is him then it looks like he's enjoying sparring and probably wished he did it a lot sooner. Sparring is an excellent workout. 99% of the people I've trained, who have done sparring, enjoy it. It looks like he has some decent people working with him.

 

[jobo]

Not sure if legit. But interesting.

he looks bigger and more powerful, which then begs n the question if if he was just physically overwhelmed in his previous matchup and hitting the weights has evened things up a bit, he definitely doesn't look a push over

 

[jobo]

This I agree with

This not so much, yes for the muscle building but not for strength, like I said in an earlier post, unless you train in Systema it is difficult to understand.


Would this be the case to create uniformity, I am not an expert on US military, but after the initial recruitment process, I wonder if it is the same for special forces training?

well yes it is difficult to understand as you won't tell us, it's several days since you said modern, in this case systema is much better than TMA and you still haven't spelled out why you think that is so.

that's not the prevailing view on how to get stronger, when you start making up your own science, is when it seems your envoking magic, which is what some tmas get accused of

 

[Gweilo]

More powerful than other MA, that would be an arrogant claim, we just use a different way to strike, no tension, at all, never tension, always relaxed and with correct breathing, let me tell you, there is a gentleman who lives in Wiltshire u.k, (Matt Hill) he holds a 5th Dan in Aikido, he spent two years as a live in student/servant with Saito Sensei, he is one of a few westerners to teach Aikido to Japanese in Japan, he was also a Captain in the Para's, He eat slept and tom titted Aikido, not a silly man, somewhere around 2000 he met Vladamir Vasilev (co founder of Systema), he now is a top instructor in Systema and has his own school, ask yourself why would he change arts?; I am not claiming Systema is the best MA, but it ain't mickey mouse either, and we don't blow up fuel depots lol