Toshindo vs the grappler

[Tez3]

People here keep mentioning grappling and MMA, but are ignoring the points that I stated many situation that grappling would not work [on the street].

I don't know how to break this to you...YOU are the one that keeps mentioning MMA! You are the one that keeps saying that MMA is no good because it's grappling, well, the thing is, it's not just grappling is it? MMA fighters aren't just MMA fighters they are also martial artists most of whom train in other others and also self defence, they are more than proficient in being able to defend themselves because it only involves a quick mind click and you've changed into reality mode.You need to realise that MMA isn't just grappling, that MMA fighters don't always grapple even in an MMA competition. You brought it up now please accept the words of those that do MMA and understand that MMA isn't what you think it is! what you see on the UFC is competition, you know nothing, although you think you do because you have a friend going into the UFC, about the training involved in MMA.
No one here has said that grappling is specifically good for self defence, it's good IF you are taken down but only you keep going on about it.

 

[Hanzou]

Technique over age

Relson reminds me of Clint Eastwood's character from Grand Turino; Essentially an old man you don't want to mess with. He's as old school Bjj as they come, and I'd hate to get on his bad side.

 

[bigfootsquatch]

in my 30 year of martial arts, I have done both traditional styles like, tang soo do,bujinkan,shaolin kung fu[which I still do],bagua zhang and Tai Chi. Also sport systems like judo, bjj,sombo and tai boxing. I am more of a traditionalist to be honest, I have never been the competitive type. I am good at sparring and fighting but not good at competiting. It just goes against who I am, I don’t feel the need to go out and win., I have always been a defense fighter and that works for me. I have nothing against grappling or MMA, one of my best friends and coaches here in china is a pro fighter Yao Honggang, his little brother is fighting in korea in the UFC in a week or two I think.

For me I don’t like people telling me only MMA and grappling is useful for a real fight,why? Cause it is not true. How do I know it is not true? Cause I have used many traditional techniques in real fights that grapplers/mma guys on the internet would swear don’t work. These techniques do work and work well, but again fights on the street have many variables that competitions don’t. That is not to say a MMA guy or grappler competitor cant fight on the street. but for someone not competing, maybe older less fit, have injuries or disabilities these sportive methods may not be the best alternative. These days sports guys have the blinders on and think the whole world wants to be the next UFC champ and is under 30 and a super badass, its childish really..

The only person with blinders on in this group is you. You continually insult very effective martial art styles. No one had taken away anything from the styles you mentioned, but you continually talk about those "sport arts." (I guess bjj being standard army training doesn't matter?)

Regardless you made your point and have also proven you aren't willing to listen to others, so why do you keep posting the same thing?

 

[wiz cool c]

if I am the one with blinders on will someone answer my question, would they use BJJ to defend themself if they had a cast on their leg and just had reconstructive knee surgery and walked around with a cane. Also answer the previous question, would you teach an 60 year old women with back problems BJJ for self defense,or how to use improvised weapons?

try not to avoid the question and mention how I am …………

 

[Tez3]

if I am the one with blinders on will someone answer my question, would they use BJJ to defend themself if they had a cast on their leg and just had reconstructive knee surgery and walked around with a cane. Also answer the previous question, would you teach an 60 year old women with back problems BJJ for self defense,or how to use improvised weapons?

try not to avoid the question and mention how I am …………

I had a friend who got pregnant in the back of a Mini ( it's an iconic British car, the old one not the bigger new models) years ago, with a cast on her leg right up to the top of her thigh so I'd never rule anything out!

and that has as much to do with the OP as the above questions have................................

I don't know anything about Toshindo, I do know a lot about BJJ and what I can tell you that style v style threads never end well. What is the point, honestly what on earth is the point of style v style threads?

 

[elder999]

if I am the one with blinders on will someone answer my question, would they use BJJ to defend themself if they had a cast on their leg and just had reconstructive knee surgery and walked around with a cane. Also answer the previous question, would you teach an 60 year old women with back problems BJJ for self defense,or how to use improvised weapons?

try not to avoid the question and mention how I am …………

To your first question, they certainly would if that was all that they had learned in the way of martial arts..oh, they might bash someone with the cane first, but if things got to the rolling around on the floor stage, what else would they use>

As to your second question, I'm from New York, so I'll answer with another question: does it have to be either or? Why not both, or some combination of things? The oldest jujutsu student I've ever had was 87 years old when he started, He couldn't do everything-in fact, some things he could do made me pretty nervous-but we worked with what he could do.

Surely, someone with "30 years of experience" in numerous arts (does that mean one or two years of experience in more than 10 arts, or what?) could understand that.......

 

[wiz cool c]

you are from new York wow so am I big deal. Yeah you can mix and match but the point here is at the beginning of this thread I was told everything about traditional art is nonsense and it has been proven again and again in competition. so meaning everything other then sport grappling is useless. so then with that being said answer the question to prove a point, is bjj the first art of choice for teaching a newbie at 60 with back problems self defense? Or would you rather be taught how to use a cane as a weapon or go from cross body to mount then supine armbar, if you are injured and need to defend yourself in the previously mentioned scenario

 

[Buka]

Relson reminds me of Clint Eastwood's character from Grand Turino; Essentially an old man you don't want to mess with. He's as old school Bjj as they come, and I'd hate to get on his bad side.

Love the Gran Torino analogy. Never thought of that before, but definitely yeah.

Really nice guy, too. But scarier/edgier than his kin.

 

[elder999]

you are from new York wow so am I big deal. o

I am from new York="answer a question with a question."

If you are from New York, then you'd know what I meant by that..

(Are you sure you're even 30 years old?)

 

[wiz cool c]

45 in February, been doing martial arts since my early teens. Have several black belts. Been living in Asia the last 8 years. Had 6 articles published for kung fu/ tai chi magazine. Have a book being published and have a documentary film being made about my life in china. Any other questions?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

if I am the one with blinders on will someone answer my question, would they use BJJ to defend themself if they had a cast on their leg and just had reconstructive knee surgery and walked around with a cane. Also answer the previous question, would you teach an 60 year old women with back problems BJJ for self defense,or how to use improvised weapons?

try not to avoid the question and mention how I am …………

Well, I already answered most of your question earlier, but you've added the bit about defending myself with a cast on my leg.

Since you mentioned knee surgery, I'll presume you mean a full leg cast that allows no bending of the leg at all. That gives me even more motivation than usual to not rely on physical fighting methods for self-defense at all, since 99% of the techniques from any martial art (including Bujinkan taijutsu) are now out of reach. Escape and evasion are probably off the table as well, leaving me with the usual default options of awareness, avoidance, and de-escalation. Fortunately those are normally sufficient.

If I was trapped in an unavoidable physical altercation, then my first option would be to use the cane, drawing (largely but not exclusively) from my FMA experience. My leg would be a significant handicap, but the weapon would hopefully be an equalizer. If they got past the cane, then we would be into clinch territory. My clinch game draws from a number of arts, including Muay Thai and BJJ, but I would be leaning on a set of tactics I learned from a JKD instructor. Once again, the leg would be a major handicap, but you do what you can with what you have. If it does come to the clinch, there's an excellent chance I could be knocked down due to the lack of stability and mobility from my leg. If I got knocked down, then I would absolutely be drawing on my BJJ experience. Once again, the leg would be a major handicap, but you do what you can.

Regardless of what art I was to draw on (Bujinkan, BJJ, or anything else), the leg would be a significant problem and would require adapting techniques on the fly. The only thing approaching an easy answer to the problem of fighting with your whole leg immobilized in a cast is gun-fu.

Getting back to the point other people were making, you started out this thread with a question about Toshindo techniques, but you seem to have switched off into a crusade to prove that Bujinkan rocks and BJJ & MMA suck for the street. In general, starting discussions to argue "your style won't work" doesn't tend to go well.

 

[elder999]

45 in February, been doing martial arts since my early teens. Have several black belts. Been living in Asia the last 8 years. Had 6 articles published for kung fu/ tai chi magazine. Have a book being published and have a documentary film being made about my life in china. Any other questions?

Yeah-you seem to have all the answers, why are you even here asking?

 

[wiz cool c]

no tony see the problem is as usuall no one here even knows anyhting about the style i asked about but instead right at the beging i got a ,i dont want to say again so i will copy and past[ at the beginning of this thread I was told everything about traditional art is nonsense and it has been proven again and again in competition. so meaning everything other then sport grappling is useless. so then ]and then in comes the brigade,,so I want to make a point that sport grappling has its place but logic does too.

Not saying I don’t think bjj is usefull I have used an arm bar,neck crank and rea naked choke in real fights, trying to make a point here that there are many differences of self defense and on the mat.

 

[wiz cool c]

Yeah-you seem to have all the answers, why are you even here asking?

None of your business;]

 

[wiz cool c]

No seriously though the question is to toshindo practitioners, but since you are not one there is no point in hearing what you got to say

 

[Tony Dismukes]

at the beginning of this thread I was told everything about traditional art is nonsense

Nope. I just re-read every post in the thread and not a single person said that.

The closest thing was Hanzou saying that the idea of being able to defeat a skilled grappler in a fight just by relying on dirty moves banned in competition and without training with/against actual skilled grapplers was nonsense. That's a long, long way from "everything about traditional art."

 

[wiz cool c]

check hanzo second message. and again this post was a question to TOSHINDO practitioners not BJJ practitioners. notice this martial art talks has a BJJ section so if i wanted a lecture on how only BJJ works i could got there. i have trained in sombo ,bjj ,judo shuai jiao. competed in judo and bjj. no i am no expert at those arts ,had the potential to be didnt want to focus that much time on an art that i feel is limited in real life to a one on one fight on the ground.

 

[elder999]

no tony see the problem is as usuall no one here even knows anyhting about the style i asked .

I don't know anything about Toshindo except the public face of it. I've never had anything to do with Toshindo. I've met Stephen Hayes, more than 30 years ago-seemed like a nice guy. I know a little Bujinkan-though they were calling it, incorrectly, "togakure ryu ninpo," then. (If you're from New York, the name Kevin Harrington might mean something to you, but not to a lot of Bujinkan people, these days).

From what I can see, Hayes' interpretation of Bujinkan, Toshindo, is flawed-I like what I think he's trying to do, conceptually, but I don't think much of it, from what I've seen as martial arts. High ranking Bujinkan people agree.

With all that said, though, you asked a specific question:

I am an ex Bujinkan member, over a decade ago, still train but primarily in the Chinese arts. Just curious how do Toshindo members train against the treat of going up against a modern sport style grappler

And, from me, you got a very specific answer, followed by the videotape I offered. It's no one's fault that no Toshindo practitioners have answered that question-the video is the best answer you're going to get, and, with "more than 30 years experience," including sambo and other grappling arts,you should be able to evaluate it for yourself.

 

[wiz cool c]

I’m just going to ignore this guy above, he just likes to hear himself talk.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

No seriously though the question is to toshindo practitioners, but since you are not one there is no point in hearing what you got to say

Yeah, on your original question the best we can do is point you to the video clip elder posted. I've seen a few other moves in the past, but they were about the same level.

The rest of the thread seems to be mostly you arguing that BJJ is no good for self-defense. To reiterate, Hanzou did not make the claim (in this thread at least) that Bujinkan or Toshindo or traditional arts are nonsense or no good for self-defense. He claimed that saying you can beat a skilled grappler in a fight without understanding grappling yourself just by relying on biting or eye-gouging or whatever is nonsense. That's a very different statement, especially since
a) most self-defense has nothing to do with fighting a skilled grappler and
b) neither Bujinkan taijutsu nor the majority of traditional martial arts were designed for the purpose of fighting a skilled grappler.