Toshindo vs the grappler

[wiz cool c]

the difference is the people training for competitions are what usually under 30 young fit and athletic. For these people they work well, but are not necessarily the best tactic for self defense as mentioned before. I once defended myself against three bigger guys with evasive foot work and a improvised weapon, no technique taught in a grappling class could have saved my *** in that situation. I learned those strategies from bujinkan. A self defense system. I also don’t think I would be running around a BJJ competition on a mat with a broken bottle trying not to get cornered by three guys, so yes they are different

 

[wiz cool c]

Tez3I have no doubt a young fit grappler or MMA competitor could defend himself, but does that mean those techniques would be the best choice for a 100 pound 5 foot 2 female being attacked by a rapist in the hallway of her building. Should she shoot in for the takedown mount her would be attacker and work for a submission or maybe tko. I would tell her to carry a pen in her hand when alone at night and go for the assailants eyes the weakest part of any human body.

 

[elder999]

Tez3I have no doubt a young fit grappler or MMA competitor could defend himself, but does that mean those techniques would be the best choice for a 100 pound 5 foot 2 female being attacked by a rapist in the hallway of her building. Should she shoot in for the takedown mount her would be attacker and work for a submission or maybe tko. I would tell her to carry a pen in her hand when alone at night and go for the assailants eyes the weakest part of any human body.

Actually, a rape is the one area where fighting from the guard is a self defense must.

And, while the eyes are a good target for results, she'd be better off raking a guy's face with her hand than trying to get a pen into one...a pen is more suited towards other soft targets.....

 

[wiz cool c]

yes the guard could come in handy if a girl ends up in that position defending herself. i disagree with the rake to the face instead of the pen to the eye.a rake to the face might piss an agressor off and end up making matters worse, where a pen to the eye even if it doesnt land point on is likely to put a guy out long enough for her to run. the key is to have the pen out and ready before anything happens as i mentioned before

 

[elder999]

yes the guard could come in handy if a girl ends up in that position defending herself. i disagree with the rake to the face instead of the pen to the eye.a rake to the face might piss an agressor off and end up making matters worse, where a pen to the eye even if it doesnt land point on is likely to put a guy out long enough for her to run. the key is to have the pen out and ready before anything happens as i mentioned before

I only meant that in a self-defense scenario, rakes to the face are more likely to injure an eye-other targets are more worthy of a pen; miss the eye, and it's not likely to cause injury, and, with most pens, it's really a "one-shot" deal, two at best, and most of the pens that people carry are going to be broken in some way that loses their utility as a weapon...believe me, this is something I know a lot about.

 

[Tez3]

Tez3I have no doubt a young fit grappler or MMA competitor could defend himself, but does that mean those techniques would be the best choice for a 100 pound 5 foot 2 female being attacked by a rapist in the hallway of her building. Should she shoot in for the takedown mount her would be attacker and work for a submission or maybe tko. I would tell her to carry a pen in her hand when alone at night and go for the assailants eyes the weakest part of any human body.

Why do you assume that MMA fighters only use techniques that are allowed in MMA competitions, do you think that's all they know? Why do you assume a fighter would automatically go for a takedown? I think you have a limited understanding of what MMA fighters train, most aren't pro fighters, most have a fight once or twice a year so train a TMA and/or self defence, even pro MMA fighters have more techniques than they use in competition. Many fighters don't do takedowns in competitions let alone in a self defence situation.
I know quite a lot about female self defence, I'm only different from your hypothetical female in that I'm two inches taller. If all I had to rely on was a choice between carrying a pen and a takedown I think I'd be in serious trouble.

 

[wiz cool c]

elder999
it you had let’s say a 6 foot 5 280 Bubba in prison type guy wanting to butt rape you ,and you had a choice of raking his face or going for an eye with a pointy pen which would you choose?

 

[elder999]

elder999
it you had let’s say a 6 foot 5 280 Bubba in prison type guy wanting to butt rape you ,and you had a choice of raking his face or going for an eye with a pointy pen which would you choose?

I'd poke him with the pen, but I wouldn't be aiming for his eye-get it?

 

[wiz cool c]

Tez do MMA fighters use weapons? do they practice against multiple opponents. do they practice in the dark, or practice defense against ,flexible, bladed,blunt and projectile weapons? and most sports athletes as mentioned a few times already are younger fit aggressive athletic types. there are techniques that are better suited for injuring a bad guy than boxing a wrestling.

Here is another story that teaches this example, after I had reconstructive knee surgery here in china, I had to wear a cast on my leg for three months [its how they do it here].at that same time I had some jealous Chinese guy threatening me about his gf that I messed around with[long story]. Now he knew what I looked like and I didn’t know what he looked like. So I got a thousand Chinese people around me not knowing which one could be this guy and im in a cast. Luckily I had a cane with me at all times. So if he had attacked me would I be bobbing and weaving and throwing knees and elbows working for submissions? No I would be using that cane as a self defense tool, guess what I learned that not in a grappling school but through ninjutsu training. I also used a set of psychological tricks to keep myself out of danger I also learned in ninjutsu not grappling. and I have done judo ,BJJ Sombo, and one of my coaches is a pro MMA fighter. I have competed in two grappling comps before as wel,l so do have experience in both.

 

[Hanzou]

the difference is the people training for competitions are what usually under 30 young fit and athletic.

Everyone who trains in a competitive martial art isn't training for competitions, athletic, or is under 30 years old.

I mean seriously, where are you getting this stuff?

For these people they work well, but are not necessarily the best tactic for self defense as mentioned before. I once defended myself against three bigger guys with evasive foot work and a improvised weapon, no technique taught in a grappling class could have saved my *** in that situation. I learned those strategies from bujinkan. A self defense system. I also don’t think I would be running around a BJJ competition on a mat with a broken bottle trying not to get cornered by three guys, so yes they are different

You keep regurgitating this incident over and over again. We get it, you defended yourself against three bigger guys with a broken bottle and "Ninja footwork". Please note that a broken bottle and ninja footwork isn't applicable to every self defense scenario.

Tez3I have no doubt a young fit grappler or MMA competitor could defend himself, but does that mean those techniques would be the best choice for a 100 pound 5 foot 2 female being attacked by a rapist in the hallway of her building. Should she shoot in for the takedown mount her would be attacker and work for a submission or maybe tko. I would tell her to carry a pen in her hand when alone at night and go for the assailants eyes the weakest part of any human body.

And if she misses, and/or gets the pen knocked away, what is she going to do then?

Ninja footwork?

Howabout teaching the girl some grappling and how to stab someone with a pen?

 

[bigfootsquatch]

It's always clear about those who have trained in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and those who have not. They throw around ridiculous scenarios about how BJJ practitioners only train for sport and know nothing else. How many have actually trained to an intermediate rank like even purple belt? How many have trained in the traditional self defense curriculum? Do most of the Bujinkan/Toshindo guys get the idea of a real martial art from their teachers or because they have trained in the system long enough to have made an informed decision on their own? (if you have- then good, let's talk)

BJJ was designed for the WEAKER person to survive. If you trained at a school that didn't teach that and techniques to back up that, then you had a bad experience with an incompetent teacher. Just like, if you trained at a Xkan school that relied on the 1,000 year old art line. There are merits and concepts to be incorporated from the modern and old schools.

Judo wiped the floor with the traditional systems because of the training methodology. It's offspring, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, did the same thing.

Nothing prepares you for every eventuality (Some older systems actually do a better job of conveying multiple attackers in terms of strategy though)

Lastly-Stop tossing around the "sport style" mantra, especially in such a condescending context. It's an overly obvious sign that you do not know what you're talking about.

 

[Tez3]

Tez do MMA fighters use weapons? do they practice against multiple opponents. do they practice in the dark, or practice defense against ,flexible, bladed,blunt and projectile weapons? and most sports athletes as mentioned a few times already are younger fit aggressive athletic types. there are techniques that are better suited for injuring a bad guy than boxing a wrestling.

Here is another story that teaches this example, after I had reconstructive knee surgery here in china, I had to wear a cast on my leg for three months [its how they do it here].at that same time I had some jealous Chinese guy threatening me about his gf that I messed around with[long story]. Now he knew what I looked like and I didn’t know what he looked like. So I got a thousand Chinese people around me not knowing which one could be this guy and im in a cast. Luckily I had a cane with me at all times. So if he had attacked me would I be bobbing and weaving and throwing knees and elbows working for submissions? No I would be using that cane as a self defense tool, guess what I learned that not in a grappling school but through ninjutsu training. I also used a set of psychological tricks to keep myself out of danger I also learned in ninjutsu not grappling. and I have done judo ,BJJ Sombo, and one of my coaches is a pro MMA fighter. I have competed in two grappling comps before as wel,l so do have experience in both.

I think you have a very narrow definition of MMA fighters, many I know do train with weapons, not for comps but because they are martial artists. Many do train against multiple opponents, practice against weapons etc etc etc because they are martial artists and have interests that extend beyond just competing in MMA.

MMA despite the apparent size of the UFC is still a minority sport around the world, there are actually very few professional full time MMA fighters so most are amateurs ( whether or not they receive a purse for fighting, they don't earn a living at fighting) who by the way don't fit your description of being aggressive younger athletic types, MMA fighters tend on the whole to be pretty laid back personalities. many don't actually start MMA until their late twenties early thirties having already been martial artists.

Now that's the point you are missing I think, that MMA fighters are martial artists with interests and most likely high grades from different styles of martial arts, many are very interested in self defence and train regularly just for that. You seem to think that MMA must be about 'working for submissions' but I'd suggest that your limited experience of MMA ( and martial artists as well as self defence practitioners) doesn't give you the whole picture.

 

[wiz cool c]

I already mentioned this true story to try to illustrate how grappling in a competition and a street altercation are different, but I think most of you have been so brain washed and follow the masses like zombies that you don’t listen to anything that goes against the popular trends. Let me post it again

Back when I lived in Beijing[I live in a different city now] One of the wrestling coaches where I learned shuai jiao was a really big Chinese guy about 6 1 and 200 pounds[for Chinese standards that’s big]. His specialty was freestyle wrestling [the school taught Greco roman ,freestyle and Chinese style”shuai Jiao”. One time he was out with his friends driving and there was some beef over a traffic accident. There were a couple guys in the other car as well. This coach in his early 20s at the time with his size and training gave him unimaginable advantage in a one on one street fight, with another average Chinese guy that would stand about 5 foot 7 weigh in at about 155 pound and had never thrown a punch in his life. So this wrestling coach went up to the driver’s side window and grabbed the guy, the guy had a blade or reached for a blade not sure, but cut the coaches hand bad enough that he need surgery and can no longer close his hand completely.

Now as I have mentioned before I have trained in and competed in grappling comps. They usually start with two opponents on a mat, with a referee and judges and someone saying ready begin. Nowhere in a grappling class or competition do you get your thumb sliced open. So see things really are different in the street and in competition. Not long ago there was some MMA guy that touched a girl in a gas station then got his *** recked outside by several of that girls friends, anyone see that one on youtube. How could that happen, multiple opponents aren't allowed in MMA matches are they

And to the people calling me a liar proof that I have competed in grappling comps,this is a judo comp I also did a grapplers quest two years before this comp but don’t have the video for that one

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I mention my own experience cause I have done sport grappling and have a BB in Bujinkan the main source of toshindo. This give me experience in both worlds, therefore I can talk from my own experience and not follow the popular trends like a mindless robot.

It's good to have different perspectives to work from. I have black belts in both Bujinkan Taijutsu and BJJ and I apply the experiences with one to my understanding of the other.

I already mentioned one good example, I had three bigger guys surrounding me and broke a bottle and used evasive footwork, and they eventually left. I suppose I should have clinched one of them worked some knees ,gone for the take down, done a little ground and pound then went for the submission right? That is what MMA would have done, or minus the ground and pound and do the take down and work the submission.

Well, not exactly. That's what a MMA fighter who didn't understand the situation he was in might have done. A smart MMA fighter would apply his skillset in a more appropriate manner for the context.

I teach BJJ, not MMA, but I do my best to make sure my students understand how to apply their techniques in a way that fits the situation - whether that's a street assault, a tournament match, or restraining a drunken friend.

In reply to Tony Dismukes. i think with Steven Hayes and his teaching defense against a guard is to make his students somewhat familiar with present day threats. also being that BJJ and MMA was created by the original challenge matches of the gracies I guess, if you are running a school there is a possibility of being challenged even assaulted by a grappler. The old ninja way of being prepared for everything idea. .

If so, he didn't do his homework.

First step for handling the challenge match is to just not accept the challenge.

If you are assaulted by a sport grappler, he's unlikely to pull guard on you. That's not what the guard is for.

Finally, if you were to be assaulted by a vaguely competent sport grappler and somehow ended up in his guard, the technique Steve is showing will not work and will put you in a much worse position.

You said it has been proven over and over again then mention competition matches that took place between different styles. Again [competition matches]. In order for a toshindo or bujinkan practitioner to use their techniques which incorporate extremely dirty fighting techniques they would have to be literally attacked by a grappler in an unfriendly environment, which would put them in a situation where they would use any tactic to escape.

Yeah, this is where these discussions tend to break down. There are important differences between the best mindset and tactics for sport competition and those appropriate for self-defense. The whole "dirty fighting" thing is not that important. Not only can a "sport" fighter use "dirty" techniques, he or she can use them more effectively than someone without that background. I can eye-gouge you from the top of mount a whole lot more effectively than you can eye-gouge me from the bottom of mount.

Leaving aside the 95% of self-defense that precedes any actual fight (awareness, avoidance, threat hardening, de-escalation, etc), I think the biggest differences between sport and street come down to
1) Street awareness needs to be more diffuse - monitoring the surroundings is just as important as focusing on the opponent in front of you.
2) Dis-engagement and escape is usually a preferable "victory condition" in the street. "Defeating" your opponent is not necessarily a requirement for winning. This changes your go-to techniques.

"Sport" fighters such as boxers, MMA fighters, etc, do have highly effective tools in their skillset to help with dis-engagement and escape when that is needed. the trick is switching the mindset as needed.

the difference is the people training for competitions are what usually under 30 young fit and athletic. For these people they work well, but are not necessarily the best tactic for self defense as mentioned before.

Tez3I have no doubt a young fit grappler or MMA competitor could defend himself, but does that mean those techniques would be the best choice for a 100 pound 5 foot 2 female being attacked by a rapist in the hallway of her building.

Actually, the best "sport" technique is not highly dependent on athletic attributes. Athleticism is always useful, both in sport and "street" situations. It's necessary in competition when your opponent has all the same technique that you do. However, the best technique generates the maximum benefit possible from whatever attributes you have. I'm 51 years old and I was never particularly strong or athletic. I regularly submit guys who are half my age and much stronger than I am.

As far as a 100 pound woman defending herself against a much larger attacker - weapons are indeed an excellent equalizer. However even when you get to weapons the debate comes up about how "sportive" is optimal for weapons training.

 

[wiz cool c]

ok Tony you have a lot of experience and a respectful attitude and i respect you for that. let me ask you ,if you were to teach a 60 year old lady that has back problems self defense would you teach her bjj tactics or bujinkan tactics such as improvised weapons and vital area attacks, be honest now?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It's always clear about those who have trained in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and those who have not. They throw around ridiculous scenarios about how BJJ practitioners only train for sport and know nothing else.

In fairness, there are BJJ practitioners who train just for the sport and don't care at all about the self-defense applications. I even personally know a couple of black belts who fall into that category.

I wouldn't venture to say what percentage of the BJJ student base has that attitude. I do know there are a lot more schools these days that only focus on preparing for tournaments than there used to be.

I personally think folks who take that approach are missing out on a large part of the art, but they're having fun and it's not my business to tell them they're wrong.

 

[Tez3]

ok Tony you have a lot of experience and a respectful attitude and i respect you for that. let me ask you ,if you were to teach a 60 year old lady that has back problems self defense would you teach her bjj tactics or bujinkan tactics such as improvised weapons and vital area attacks, be honest now?

Good grief I wish you'd stop using me as your example ( okay I don't have back problems, knees are a bit iffy after many years of abuse in martial arts, parachuting and horse riding)

Seriously I wouldn't use either, I would ( and do) use tried and test techniques designed specially for self defence which doesn't just include physical techniques but uses awareness, conflict management understanding attack and attackers, basically I would teach self defence as taught by people like Geoff Thompson, Peter Consterdine and Marc McYoung.
I understand that's not what the OP is about but if you want training for a specific purpose you need to pick one that is specifically for that purpose.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

ok Tony you have a lot of experience and a respectful attitude and i respect you for that. let me ask you ,if you were to teach a 60 year old lady that has back problems self defense would you teach her bjj tactics or bujinkan tactics such as improvised weapons and vital area attacks, be honest now?

Valid question, but my answer is more complex than the choices you offer...

1) My background includes a lot more than Bujinkan and BJJ, so I'm not limited to drawing from those two.
2) Most of self-defense (as previously noted) is not physical. If said theoretical 60-year old lady with back trouble wants to have a fighting chance with the physical side of self-defense she's going to have to put some significant time and effort into training regardless of what I or anyone else teaches her.
3) I can teach "vital area attacks" and "improvised weapons" in 10 minutes. If you want to be reliably effective with either you need to put time into developing actual striking skill and weapons skill respectively. The "vital area" and "improvised" parts are an easy add-on once you have the delivery system.
4) BTW - my BJJ does include "vital area attacks." Just last night I was showing my students where kicking the groin fits into a defense they were drilling for defending against a standing attacker when they've been knocked down. As mentioned above, the hard part is developing a solid delivery system where you can land effective strikes while simultaneously protecting yourself. Once you have that, it's pretty easy to get used to aiming for the most vulnerable areas.
5) If I was limited to drawing just from BJJ and Bujinkan, I'd probably teach more techniques from BJJ but teach a strategy more influenced by my Bujinkan background.
6) If the student had a mindset that could handle it and a life situation that warranted it, I'd probably focus mostly on FMA-based weapons training - how to use a cane or knife. Improvised weapons are an easy add-on once the student has that foundation. I'd still include some BJJ fundamentals on how to protect herself if she gets knocked down.

 

[Hanzou]

There have been cases of women who have used triangle chokes (i.e. competition techniques) to protect themselves;

Woman triangle chokes attacker unconscious, judge awards her £500

Woman sailor thwarts Dubai rape attempt with leg stranglehold | The National

 

[Tez3]

If the student had a mindset that could handle it and a life situation that warranted it, I'd probably focus mostly on FMA-based weapons training - how to use a cane or knife. Improvised weapons are an easy add-on once the student has that foundation. I'd still include some BJJ fundamentals on how to protect herself if she gets knocked down.

A brick in the handbag is always a good weapon! Actually considering most women's handbags they make very good weapons even without the brick!