Toshindo vs the grappler

[Kung Fu Wang]

I grapple on the ground, cause I'm always the one with friends. I pull guard so my friends can kick the guy on top.

When you punch and if your opponent is

- standing, he can lean back and cancel out most of your striking force.
- on the ground, since the ground is behind his body, your striking force will go into his body 100%.

This is why to take your opponent down and then knock him out while he is on the ground is an excellent strategy. You don't need to "box with your opponent for 15 rounds". The key here is, you have to remaining your own "mobility" while taking your opponent down.

 

[wiz cool c]

that’s funny steve. I have used the guard three time myself in real situations. one time the guy did have friends with him ,luckily they didn’t jump in, and i was thinking of trying to use him as a shield if they did, but it never happened. the other time was in a lady bar in Beijing [i live in china] and the hooker chick was slapping me while i had my feet at the hips of one guy and would remove one to kick him in the face from time to time while another guy was yelling at me to leave. the third time, i was blindsided by a manager back in the state when i worked at a gym [this guy was a black belt by the way in an eclectic system] and landed on a small table he tried to grab my throat, he was in my open guard I arm bared him. the last one happened at the famous 92nd street Y on the upper east side of Manhattan and can be verified.

 

[drop bear]

I rolling guillotined a guy once.

 

[Hanzou]

I am just trying to start an interesting topic here. And it has been proven again and again ? show me some videos of toshindo or ninjutsu guys in real street fights losing against grapplers. If there aren’t any it hasn’t been proven again and again, why?

Jigaro Kano disproved that when he founded Judo and his students defeated traditional Jujutsu schools. Kyokushin guys disproved that when they beat the snot out of kung fu guys. The Gracies disproved it multiple times in numerous challenge matches.

The flaw is believing that sport martial arts designed around competition aren't applicable to self defense or fighting so you don't have to take them seriously, nor account for their strengths because your martial art was practiced by samurai and ninjas in feudal Japan. Wrestlers train for trophies, but that doesn't stop them from being excellent at closing distances, and taking people down in highly efficient ways.

Also, I thought this topic was about Toshindo's grappling, not your personal exploits....

there are so many situation where you don’t want to grapple on the ground with a guy. How about you are at a bar or night club where people usually have friends with them. Or on a subway platform. realistically every martial artist with self defense as their goal should learn some ground fighting. I would estimate about 6 to 8 months worth is sufficient.

It should be noted that grappling isn't just ground fighting.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

realistically every martial artist with self defense as their goal should learn some ground fighting. I would estimate about 6 to 8 months worth is sufficient.

I'd say that's about right. That would be enough to give you the tools to defend yourself on the ground against an untrained opponent and get to your feet safely. You'll want more if you want the option of reliably winning fights on the ground, but 6-8 months should teach you the essentials of survival.

After all how many different guard passes do you need to know for a self defense situation/street fight.

Most of the time, none. A mugger or rapist is highly unlikely to pull guard on you and if you do somehow end up in an assailant's guard they probably aren't going to know how to use it effectively. That's why I questioned Steve's motives in teaching what he was showing.

 

[Hanzou]

Most of the time, none. A mugger or rapist is highly unlikely to pull guard on you and if you do somehow end up in an assailant's guard they probably aren't going to know how to use it effectively. That's why I questioned Steve's motives in teaching what he was showing.

I always find it funny when I see "self defense" advocates actively practicing how to get out of or countering the guard.

It's as if they have no concept behind the purpose of the position.

 

[elder999]

I am an ex Bujinkan member, over a decade ago, still train but primarily in the Chinese arts. Just curious how do Toshindo members train against the treat of going up against a modern sport style grappler

There's a video on this site somewhere of Stephen Hayes demonstrating Toshindo against the grappler..........I can't find it anywhere, but as I recall.........eh......not so much.

 

[Hanzou]

There's a video on this site somewhere of Stephen Hayes demonstrating Toshindo against the grappler..........I can't find it anywhere, but as I recall.........eh......not so much.

Here's a Toshindo guard pass variation;

I remember I showed this vid to my class one evening. We tried to perform it on each other, and each time we did, the person performing this "pass" ended up on the bottom of someone's mount.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Here's a Toshindo guard pass variation;

I remember I showed this vid to my class one evening. We tried to perform it on each other, and each time we did, the person performing this "pass" ended up on the bottom of someone's mount.

Yeah, that's the one elder was referencing. As far as I can tell, Steve took a catch wrestling move and tried to make it more "Toshindo-ey." Unfortunately he doesn't really understand the guard or the ground game and so he took out everything that made the original move a viable technique. (Actually the original catch wrestling move is kind of low-percentage, but at least it's a legitimate technique that can work under the right circumstances.)

 

[wiz cool c]

They won in sport matches, believe me there where rules, like it was a one on one fight with no weapons, that is just to name a few. People training for self defense are not training to win competitions. Things that work that can save you on the street are not necessarily the best tactic for completion. Rolling around for 10 minutes trying to pass a guard is about as realistic as a jump spinning side kick in an elevator for self defense. Why do police carry a guns and tasers and have back up hmmm. I mention my own experience cause I have done sport grappling and have a BB in Bujinkan the main source of toshindo. This give me experience in both worlds, therefore I can talk from my own experience and not follow the popular trends like a mindless robot.

I already mentioned one good example, I had three bigger guys surrounding me and broke a bottle and used evasive footwork, and they eventually left. I suppose I should have clinched one of them worked some knees ,gone for the take down, done a little ground and pound then went for the submission right? That is what MMA would have done, or minus the ground and pound and do the take down and work the submission. Ok and I would have wound up in the hospital. Does sport grappling teach stay in your feet and use evasive foot work and use an improvised weapon? Ok then well then it doesn’t teach self defense, it teaches sports, thank you.

 

[wiz cool c]

I got another good example of how sport grappling and self defense are very different. Back when I lived in Beijing[I live in a different city now] One of the wrestling coaches where I learned shuai jiao was a really big Chinese guy about 6 1 and 200 pounds[for Chinese standards that’s big]. His specialty was freestyle wrestling [the school taught Greco roman ,freestyle and Chinese style”shuai Jiao”. One time he was out with his friends driving and there was some beef over a traffic accident. There were a couple guys in the other car as well. This coach in his early 20s at the time with his size and training gave him unimaginable advantage in a one on one street fight, with another average Chinese guy that would stand about 5 foot 7 weigh in at about 155 pound and had never thrown a punch in his life. So this wrestling coach went up to the driver’s side window and grabbed the guy, the guy had a blade or reached for a blade not sure, but cut the coaches hand bad enough that he need surgery and can make a complete fist ever again.

Self defense is not only different in the physical training of sport style grappling but psychologically different as well. For example the sport athlete is thinking win. In a match you go in to win, be aggressive and gain points. In self protection you are not trying to win all the time, but evade and avoid completely at times, escape, cheat. I trained with Hayes a couple of times long time ago. I don’t think what he does is all that great in way of techniques but agree with another guy here he is a really cool dude to talk too. But if grappling meatheads are going to start preaching the Jesus is the only way gospel to me ,I will explain to them that there are all kind of variables outside a competition mat that change the dynamics of a self defense situation.

 

[Hanzou]

They won in sport matches, believe me there where rules, like it was a one on one fight with no weapons, that is just to name a few. People training for self defense are not training to win competitions. Things that work that can save you on the street are not necessarily the best tactic for completion.

There are rules in the street too, they're oftentimes called laws. I've seen quite a few self defense demos for example where people will soccer kick a downed opponent in the head. Doing something like that can potentially put you in jail for a long time. So yeah, me performing a Judo/BJJ/Wrestling pin so they can't move, or hyperextending someone's leg so that they can't chase me, or putting someone to sleep are probably better ideas than curb stomping someone in the head repeatedly to make sure they're KO'd.

Rolling around for 10 minutes trying to pass a guard is about as realistic as a jump spinning side kick in an elevator for self defense. Why do police carry a guns and tasers and have back up hmmm. I mention my own experience cause I have done sport grappling and have a BB in Bujinkan the main source of toshindo. This give me experience in both worlds, therefore I can talk from my own experience and not follow the popular trends like a mindless robot.

Again, why would anyone be attempting to pass a guard in a self defense situation for several minutes unless they're the assailant? I'm curious how someone who has supposedly studied grappling could keep making this error over and over again.

 

[wiz cool c]

ok but how much time do you spend passing guards in BJJ class? so if you were training in a self defense system that time could be spent working knife defense or something else. And yeah street fights have rules called laws,tell the criminals that. Most people training in say toshindo or bujinkan are less likely to fight over a rude remark and walk away then say a tough guy grappler is.

 

[wiz cool c]

In reply to Tony Dismukes. i think with Steven Hayes and his teaching defense against a guard is to make his students somewhat familiar with present day threats. also being that BJJ and MMA was created by the original challenge matches of the gracies I guess, if you are running a school there is a possibility of being challenged even assaulted by a grappler. The old ninja way of being prepared for everything idea. .

 

[Hanzou]

ok but how much time do you spend passing guards in BJJ class?

We spent quite a bit of time learning how to pass guards, however anyone who has studied Bjj or grappling systems that employ the guard would know the context in which you're learning those tactics. I have yet to encounter a Bjj instructor who has ever said that we're learning guard passes for self defense. My instructors have always said that guard passing is pretty much a Bjj vs Bjj affair, and you mainly learn it so that you can break the guard of another jujitsu player.

However, it's important to note that the person in the guard can use that experience to learn how to effectively counter someone trying to break their guard in a self defense situation or otherwise.

Anyone who has actually practiced Bjj would know this.

so if you were training in a self defense system that time could be spent working knife defense or something else.

There are knife defenses within Bjj, and they're about as effective as those found in other (non- FMA) TMAs (i.e. not very).

And yeah street fights have rules called laws,tell the criminals that. Most people training in say toshindo or bujinkan are less likely to fight over a rude remark and walk away then say a tough guy grappler is.

Haven't spent much time around Bjj or Judo brown and black belts have you?

It shows.

 

[wiz cool c]

Right and that is the point in sport vs self defense training. I always hear how sport fighting is the only way to go. Go for who? Young athletic aggressive guys? Well that is not and does not have to be the goal of all humans that study martial arts. Yes if you spend the majority of your training time on sport fighting you will be better at sport fighting. But as I mentioned before there are so many other variables that happen outside of a sport JJ match, and time could be better spent working against techniques that could be used by bad guys. One of the old Bujinkan instructors worked as a prison guard for Rikers island, I once asked him if he ever used his skills, he replied[daily] so how could these useless traditional skills work for him daily in one of the worst prisons in America? And as far as using skills taught in say Toshindo or bujinkan in a self defense situation against a grappler well it would have to take place on the streets ,not for sport, do you understand this part?

 

[Hanzou]

Right and that is the point in sport vs self defense training. I always hear how sport fighting is the only way to go. Go for who? Young athletic aggressive guys? Well that is not and does not have to be the goal of all humans that study martial arts. Yes if you spend the majority of your training time on sport fighting you will be better at sport fighting. But as I mentioned before there are so many other variables that happen outside of a sport JJ match, and time could be better spent working against techniques that could be used by bad guys.

I think you missed the point of this discussion (which is kind of hilarious since you started the topic in the first place). The point is that if a person practicing Toshindo is seeking to better defend themselves against a grappler, they should probably go out and learn some grappling from a grappling art. No offense to Toshindo and Mr. Hayes, but the stuff I've seen from Toshindo grappling is questionable at best. Which is quite sad honestly, because it should be quite easy for someone like Stephen Hayes to get someone to teach his students effective grappling techniques.

And as far as using skills taught in say Toshindo or bujinkan in a self defense situation against a grappler well it would have to take place on the streets ,not for sport, do you understand this part?

The location doesn't mean a hill of beans if the Toshindo individual doesn't have the tools necessary to neutralize a skilled grappler. That Toshindo video above (that you defended) has more technical holes in it than swiss cheese. The most glaring of which is the notion that you're going to be defending yourself inside someone's guard in a self defense situation. As for the other problems, well let's just say that even white belts in Bjj don't make some of the mistakes he was making in that vid.

And again, your concept of "no rules in da streetz" is nonsensical. You can probably justify gouging someone's eye out or cripple them if you can prove that they're trying to rape or kill you. Heaven help you though if you gouge someone's eye out or cripple them because he grabbed your girlfriend's ***, and then tackled you when you had a problem with it.

 

[wiz cool c]

There is an expression never back an animal into a corner without a way out. This is one major different in psychology between sport grappling and self defense training. The sport grappler is out there trying to win a match, in self defense you have this mentality that you are the trapped animal. You are in the right and will do whatever it takes to survive.


You said it has been proven over and over again then mention competition matches that took place between different styles. Again [competition matches]. In order for a toshindo or bujinkan practitioner to use their techniques which incorporate extremely dirty fighting techniques they would have to be literally attacked by a grappler in an unfriendly environment, which would put them in a situation where they would use any tactic to escape.

 

[Hanzou]

There is an expression never back an animal into a corner without a way out. This is one major different in psychology between sport grappling and self defense training. The sport grappler is out there trying to win a match, in self defense you have this mentality that you are the trapped animal. You are in the right and will do whatever it takes to survive.

You said it has been proven over and over again then mention competition matches that took place between different styles. Again [competition matches]. In order for a toshindo or bujinkan practitioner to use their techniques which incorporate extremely dirty fighting techniques they would have to be literally attacked by a grappler in an unfriendly environment, which would put them in a situation where they would use any tactic to escape.

And you've just demonstrated two more examples of flawed thinking here;

1. A person who is trained in sport wouldn't have the will to survive if their life was threatened? Nonsense.

2. "Those people defeated by sport MAs would have won if they would have just gotten a chance to use their dirty secret techniques!" More nonsense. Trying to bite Rickson Gracie, Jon Jones, or Gary Ton in the face and going for his nuts isn't going to stop him from gaining a dominant position and proceeding to bash your face in.

 

[Tez3]

This is one major different in psychology between sport grappling and self defense training. The sport grappler is out there trying to win a match, in self defense you have this mentality that you are the trapped animal. You are in the right and will do whatever it takes to survive.

However a great many people are able to switch from a 'sports' attitude' to a 'survival' attitude easily enough, it's a cliché to say you react how you train but that doesn't mean it's true. MMA fighters can just as easily use 'dirty' techniques as ones allowed by MMA rules, I've done it as well as many others.