Too Intellectual????

[Brian R. VanCise]

I do not know if the popularity of Kenpo is declining or not. Yet, I have noticed three Kenpo schools in Vegas closed within the last two years. However, we did have a lot of them!

 

[Buka]

When you reach the "some old bastard" designation, you might see that there's an increase and decrease in the popularity of all arts. That popularity might be world wide, regional or local. My guess is, it will continue to change and change and change.

But the best thing is, I'll bet everybody is having a whole lot of fun.

 

[punisher73]

When the guys of the 60's & 70's first started training, it was usually only young guys and no women or children. Training was a lot of sparring and injuries were common. That is the type of person "karate" drew to it. As time went on, women and children became more frequent and also even the type of guy that was drawn to martial arts changed. The reasons for doing a martial art changed from just fighting to various reasons.

What draws in that same type of crowd that wants to learn how to fight? For the most part, MMA (I realize that people do MMA for other reasons as well as it gains in popularity) fits the bill for many young guys.

MMA is the fastest growing SPECTATOR sport. I have not seen any data that shows on average X amount of people start martial arts in a year, nor if that number is changed/influenced by people joining or switching to an MMA style gym vs. another martial art.

Of course now, it seems like all the young kids that get arrested all claim to be MMA fighters, but can never tell you who/what/when/where they had their training. I think that some people just claim to study it because it's the "in thing". Just like in days past when people claimed to be a blackbelt or a ninja etc. etc.

 

[drop bear]

When the guys of the 60's & 70's first started training, it was usually only young guys and no women or children. Training was a lot of sparring and injuries were common. That is the type of person "karate" drew to it. As time went on, women and children became more frequent and also even the type of guy that was drawn to martial arts changed. The reasons for doing a martial art changed from just fighting to various reasons.

What draws in that same type of crowd that wants to learn how to fight? For the most part, MMA (I realize that people do MMA for other reasons as well as it gains in popularity) fits the bill for many young guys.

MMA is the fastest growing SPECTATOR sport. I have not seen any data that shows on average X amount of people start martial arts in a year, nor if that number is changed/influenced by people joining or switching to an MMA style gym vs. another martial art.

Of course now, it seems like all the young kids that get arrested all claim to be MMA fighters, but can never tell you who/what/when/where they had their training. I think that some people just claim to study it because it's the "in thing". Just like in days past when people claimed to be a blackbelt or a ninja etc. etc.

lol at cage fighters.

 

[KempoBlackbelt]

As someone who's trained for over 25 years almost exclusively in Kempo and a Master in it I'll give my opinion on this topic. I've also had long discussions with my instructors who were some of the first to teach it in the 70s so I have a good background on the recent history of it. There were some good points made in previous posts and some that missed the mark. Kempo karate came into the forefront in the 70s and 80s following the success of Bruce Lee, the Green Hornet, and the Kung Fu TV series. Fred Villari threw Shaolin on Kempo to capitalize on the popularity of the Kung Fu series and the public didn't know the difference between any of the styles. Fred was also a master sales person and was able to take the complexity of the formal style and turn it into something that could be taught quickly and effectively to masses of people. Studios popped up in strip malls across the country and the world with flashy signs, shirts, and a series of movies continued to feed the frenzy. While many child took the classes adults were up to 90% of the business in the 70s and 80s and into the 90s. Adults are much more likely to stick with something longer term (due to a variety of reasons). Adults committed to years of training and many had their goals set to reaching black belt.

Flash ahead to today. Many Kempo students are children with many studios having 90% children. Parents encourage the students to try different things with a martial art being one of them. Many if not most students spend a year or less in class and move on to other activities and sports. Talking to parents they usually state they don't have the time and money to pursue it themselves and they instead let their children do it. They also state that having their kids in class gives them some time to do errands, teach them some discipline, or just tire them out. Kempo studios now focus in on the kids as their business by doing birthday parties and other kid related events. Becoming a good kempo artist take a lot of time and dedication. In today's society everyone wants quick results. Kempo done correctly isn't a quick answer solution. At the same time people are bombarded with MMA and their classes offer immediate results. Unfortunately many programs don't teach how to correctly do a kick or punch before people jump into using them and this can and does lead to injuries. One key thing to think about is that kempo is actually a mixed martial art in itself. It mixes the strikes and kicks, holds and submissions, weapons, etc. from all different styles. MMA is just another mixture of all the different arts with great marketing and hype behind it. The UFC and other organizations are just the Fred Villari of this generation. Everything goes in cycles. Even within the UFC different styles of fighters are highlighted. BJJ was really hot but now you don't see BJJ dominating the fights. More strikers and kickers (many with some type of karate background) are dominating now. Everyone now has some BJJ experience and knows how to counter the BJJ techniques.

 

[Buka]

As someone who's trained for over 25 years almost exclusively in Kempo and a Master in it I'll give my opinion on this topic. I've also had long discussions with my instructors who were some of the first to teach it in the 70s so I have a good background on the recent history of it. There were some good points made in previous posts and some that missed the mark. Kempo karate came into the forefront in the 70s and 80s following the success of Bruce Lee, the Green Hornet, and the Kung Fu TV series. Fred Villari threw Shaolin on Kempo to capitalize on the popularity of the Kung Fu series and the public didn't know the difference between any of the styles. Fred was also a master sales person and was able to take the complexity of the formal style and turn it into something that could be taught quickly and effectively to masses of people. Studios popped up in strip malls across the country and the world with flashy signs, shirts, and a series of movies continued to feed the frenzy. While many child took the classes adults were up to 90% of the business in the 70s and 80s and into the 90s. Adults are much more likely to stick with something longer term (due to a variety of reasons). Adults committed to years of training and many had their goals set to reaching black belt.

Flash ahead to today. Many Kempo students are children with many studios having 90% children. Parents encourage the students to try different things with a martial art being one of them. Many if not most students spend a year or less in class and move on to other activities and sports. Talking to parents they usually state they don't have the time and money to pursue it themselves and they instead let their children do it. They also state that having their kids in class gives them some time to do errands, teach them some discipline, or just tire them out. Kempo studios now focus in on the kids as their business by doing birthday parties and other kid related events. Becoming a good kempo artist take a lot of time and dedication. In today's society everyone wants quick results. Kempo done correctly isn't a quick answer solution. At the same time people are bombarded with MMA and their classes offer immediate results. Unfortunately many programs don't teach how to correctly do a kick or punch before people jump into using them and this can and does lead to injuries. One key thing to think about is that kempo is actually a mixed martial art in itself. It mixes the strikes and kicks, holds and submissions, weapons, etc. from all different styles. MMA is just another mixture of all the different arts with great marketing and hype behind it. The UFC and other organizations are just the Fred Villari of this generation. Everything goes in cycles. Even within the UFC different styles of fighters are highlighted. BJJ was really hot but now you don't see BJJ dominating the fights. More strikers and kickers (many with some type of karate background) are dominating now. Everyone now has some BJJ experience and knows how to counter the BJJ techniques.

Read every post I've ever written. Talk to everyone I've ever taught, trained with or fought for forty years. You will NOT hear me talk badly about anyone in Martial Arts other than ones that committed crimes or that were investigated by federal authorities, myself being one of those authorities.....and one other.... Freddie. I sit here now, three quarters of a mile from his old "World Headquarters". He was the worst thing to hit the Martial world in my lifetime. And I'm an old bastard.

Please don't - "The UFC and other organizations are just the Fred Villari of this generation."

As for BJJ - your statement shows you've never trained it, don't know anything about it and sure as hell never fought against it.

All I wrote above was ungentlemanly and vitriolic, purposely. All I wrote above is also true. To you, KenpoBlackbelt, I apologize. (sincerely) I do so as a gentleman of the Arts and someone who's meeting this weekend with Grandmasters of Parker Kenpo for a little get together. (Just wanted you to know where I was coming from, Brother)

 

[Mephisto]

As someone who's trained for over 25 years almost exclusively in Kempo and a Master in it I'll give my opinion on this topic. I've also had long discussions with my instructors who were some of the first to teach it in the 70s so I have a good background on the recent history of it. There were some good points made in previous posts and some that missed the mark. Kempo karate came into the forefront in the 70s and 80s following the success of Bruce Lee, the Green Hornet, and the Kung Fu TV series. Fred Villari threw Shaolin on Kempo to capitalize on the popularity of the Kung Fu series and the public didn't know the difference between any of the styles. Fred was also a master sales person and was able to take the complexity of the formal style and turn it into something that could be taught quickly and effectively to masses of people. Studios popped up in strip malls across the country and the world with flashy signs, shirts, and a series of movies continued to feed the frenzy. While many child took the classes adults were up to 90% of the business in the 70s and 80s and into the 90s. Adults are much more likely to stick with something longer term (due to a variety of reasons). Adults committed to years of training and many had their goals set to reaching black belt.

Flash ahead to today. Many Kempo students are children with many studios having 90% children. Parents encourage the students to try different things with a martial art being one of them. Many if not most students spend a year or less in class and move on to other activities and sports. Talking to parents they usually state they don't have the time and money to pursue it themselves and they instead let their children do it. They also state that having their kids in class gives them some time to do errands, teach them some discipline, or just tire them out. Kempo studios now focus in on the kids as their business by doing birthday parties and other kid related events. Becoming a good kempo artist take a lot of time and dedication. In today's society everyone wants quick results. Kempo done correctly isn't a quick answer solution. At the same time people are bombarded with MMA and their classes offer immediate results. Unfortunately many programs don't teach how to correctly do a kick or punch before people jump into using them and this can and does lead to injuries. One key thing to think about is that kempo is actually a mixed martial art in itself. It mixes the strikes and kicks, holds and submissions, weapons, etc. from all different styles. MMA is just another mixture of all the different arts with great marketing and hype behind it. The UFC and other organizations are just the Fred Villari of this generation. Everything goes in cycles. Even within the UFC different styles of fighters are highlighted. BJJ was really hot but now you don't see BJJ dominating the fights. More strikers and kickers (many with some type of karate background) are dominating now. Everyone now has some BJJ experience and knows how to counter the BJJ techniques.

I have to disagree here. MMA is not the equivalent to the strip mall dojo. MMA is really just one of the least restrictive rulesets for martial sport to gain popularity although it has existed on many differnt forms for years before being called mma. Some strip mall Dojos may attempt to cash in on mma popularity but they are not one in the same. These same types of Dojo have been around for years using the latest craze to attract students. as for your generalization that "many programs don't teach to correctly do a punch or kick" I'm not sure who you're referring to or where your evidence is. If you're referring to the strip mall students that train for less than a year maybe you're right. But if you think mma schools aren't teaching fighters how to kick, I'd say that's up for debate.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Many Kempo students are children with many studios having 90% children.

It's not just Kempo. My understanding is that for the majority of commercial schools of whatever style most of the money is in kids classes.

Becoming a good kempo artist take a lot of time and dedication. In today's society everyone wants quick results. Kempo done correctly isn't a quick answer solution. At the same time people are bombarded with MMA and their classes offer immediate results. Unfortunately many programs don't teach how to correctly do a kick or punch before people jump into using them and this can and does lead to injuries.

Becoming a good MMA fighter takes a lot of time and dedication. I'd venture to say that it takes more hard work than it takes to earn a black belt in the majority of styles out there.

I haven't come across any legit MMA gyms that don't teach how to punch or kick correctly. Failing to do so would become pretty apparent as soon as their students stepped into the cage.

One key thing to think about is that kempo is actually a mixed martial art in itself. It mixes the strikes and kicks, holds and submissions, weapons, etc. from all different styles. MMA is just another mixture of all the different arts with great marketing and hype behind it.

For effective communication, it's probably more useful to refer to Kempo as a "hybrid" or "eclectic" art (like many others). The term "MMA" has come to refer to the sport popularized by the UFC (and other promotions) and the approach to training* which works to prepare fighters for that style of competition.

*(We've had debates elsewhere regarding whether MMA should be regarded as a martial arts "style".)

 

[Buka]

To anyone thinking of opening a dojo - kids pay the rent and more. Crazy not to take advantage of how many kids want to be in dojos.

A big kids class helps you build a rock solid dojo for everyone else.

 

[KempoBlackbelt]

I understand why Fred's name brings up some bad feelings from others. I've heard all the stories. The founder of my school was one of Fred's first black belts and also the first to leave him. With that said I believe you have to give credit to anyone who brings karate to the masses. If you trace the history of many of the master's of karate or martial arts in general you will find many less than honorable people, James Mitose, who most kempo people trace themselves back to, was a convicted murderer and extortionist who died in prison.

In regards to BJJ statement made by Buka, yes, I've trained in it and also fought against it. As I stated we've mixed a lot into our version of Kempo including training in other styles and bringing the best of many styles. Kempo doesn't provide you ground fighting skills so you need to add BJJ or something like it. Our chief instructors have also studied in Judo, Aikido, Hapkido, BJJ, etc. We also have Master's from other styles and schools work out with us. There is always something to learn from others.

It's unfortunate that all Kempo schools gets all lumped together. There are great schools out there and there are others that are all about selling black belts. It took me 8 years to get my black belt and that was going to class 3 times a week for two hours, another hour in private weekly classes, and practicing on my own for many hours. We often have "black belts" from other schools join our school. The last one tried to work out with the black belts and decided he was better suited at a orange belt level (he had received his black belt in a little over a year). We're not all "strip mall dojos".

As far as your "apology" Buka I have to feel sorry for you. After all your years in the martial arts you haven't learned to treat others with respect, even those you may not like. Your rant was not only against Fred, but against me who you've never met. I've read many things on this board I disagree with but I respect that the opinion of someone else. I VERY rarely post to this board though because there is always someone who can't respect others opinions. It's sad.

 

[Tez3]

It's unfortunate that all Kempo schools gets all lumped together.

Yet you do that to MMA? You disparage something and make huge assumptions about it that don't stand up to examination. I think really, as this is a discussion about Kempo rubbishing other styles and stylists could really be left out.

 

[drop bear]

I understand why Fred's name brings up some bad feelings from others. I've heard all the stories. The founder of my school was one of Fred's first black belts and also the first to leave him. With that said I believe you have to give credit to anyone who brings karate to the masses. If you trace the history of many of the master's of karate or martial arts in general you will find many less than honorable people, James Mitose, who most kempo people trace themselves back to, was a convicted murderer and extortionist who died in prison.

In regards to BJJ statement made by Buka, yes, I've trained in it and also fought against it. As I stated we've mixed a lot into our version of Kempo including training in other styles and bringing the best of many styles. Kempo doesn't provide you ground fighting skills so you need to add BJJ or something like it. Our chief instructors have also studied in Judo, Aikido, Hapkido, BJJ, etc. We also have Master's from other styles and schools work out with us. There is always something to learn from others.

It's unfortunate that all Kempo schools gets all lumped together. There are great schools out there and there are others that are all about selling black belts. It took me 8 years to get my black belt and that was going to class 3 times a week for two hours, another hour in private weekly classes, and practicing on my own for many hours. We often have "black belts" from other schools join our school. The last one tried to work out with the black belts and decided he was better suited at a orange belt level (he had received his black belt in a little over a year). We're not all "strip mall dojos".

As far as your "apology" Buka I have to feel sorry for you. After all your years in the martial arts you haven't learned to treat others with respect, even those you may not like. Your rant was not only against Fred, but against me who you've never met. I've read many things on this board I disagree with but I respect that the opinion of someone else. I VERY rarely post to this board though because there is always someone who can't respect others opinions. It's sad.

punch and kick correctly can be a tricky issue. Mma especially comes under fire for that because it can all look kind of goober.
The counter argument is that they are knocking people out with those incorrect techniques.

 

[Buka]

I understand why Fred's name brings up some bad feelings from others. I've heard all the stories. The founder of my school was one of Fred's first black belts and also the first to leave him. With that said I believe you have to give credit to anyone who brings karate to the masses. If you trace the history of many of the master's of karate or martial arts in general you will find many less than honorable people, James Mitose, who most kempo people trace themselves back to, was a convicted murderer and extortionist who died in prison.

In regards to BJJ statement made by Buka, yes, I've trained in it and also fought against it. As I stated we've mixed a lot into our version of Kempo including training in other styles and bringing the best of many styles. Kempo doesn't provide you ground fighting skills so you need to add BJJ or something like it. Our chief instructors have also studied in Judo, Aikido, Hapkido, BJJ, etc. We also have Master's from other styles and schools work out with us. There is always something to learn from others.

It's unfortunate that all Kempo schools gets all lumped together. There are great schools out there and there are others that are all about selling black belts. It took me 8 years to get my black belt and that was going to class 3 times a week for two hours, another hour in private weekly classes, and practicing on my own for many hours. We often have "black belts" from other schools join our school. The last one tried to work out with the black belts and decided he was better suited at a orange belt level (he had received his black belt in a little over a year). We're not all "strip mall dojos".

As far as your "apology" Buka I have to feel sorry for you. After all your years in the martial arts you haven't learned to treat others with respect, even those you may not like. Your rant was not only against Fred, but against me who you've never met. I've read many things on this board I disagree with but I respect that the opinion of someone else. I VERY rarely post to this board though because there is always someone who can't respect others opinions. It's sad.

I understand why Fred's name brings up some bad feelings from others.

No, I don't think you do.

I've heard all the stories.

No, you haven't. Not even close, my friend.

The founder of my school was one of Fred's first black belts and also the first to leave him.

I sincerely salute him. I know what a tough position he was in. I know first hand.

With that said I believe you have to give credit to anyone who brings karate to the masses.

Karate, yes. What Freddie brought, and how he took advantage of honest people who wanted to study Karate, no. Dear God, no.

If you trace the history of many of the master's of karate or martial arts in general you will find many less than honorable people, James Mitose, who most kempo people trace themselves back to, was a convicted murderer and extortionist who died in prison.

You might want to read the case file on that case. I did. It might change your mind.

In regards to BJJ statement made by Buka, yes, I've trained in it and also fought against it.

You've "trained in it". Do tell, my brother, do tell. If you don't mind me asking, with whom? As for "fought against it", how'd you do?

As I stated we've mixed a lot into our version of Kempo including training in other styles and bringing the best of many styles. Kempo doesn't provide you ground fighting skills so you need to add BJJ or something like it. Our chief instructors have also studied in Judo, Aikido, Hapkido, BJJ, etc. We also have Master's from other styles and schools work out with us. There is always something to learn from others.

I salute you in this. That's awesome. Sincerely.

It's unfortunate that all Kempo schools gets all lumped together.

I couldn't agree with you more. I know so many really good Kempo schools and it really ticks me off when some folks lump them in with a supposed style taught by people like Freddie. You don't actually know how much that/he pisses me off.

There are great schools out there and there are others that are all about selling black belts. It took me 8 years to get my black belt and that was going to class 3 times a week for two hours, another hour in private weekly classes, and practicing on my own for many hours. We often have "black belts" from other schools join our school. The last one tried to work out with the black belts and decided he was better suited at a orange belt level (he had received his black belt in a little over a year). We're not all "strip mall dojos".

No, you most certainly are not all strip mall dojos. It really irritates me when people think that.

As far as your "apology" Buka I have to feel sorry for you.

I appreciate the pity, it's probably coming from a good place, but there's really no need to feel sorry. Honest. But I appreciate it anyway.

After all your years in the martial arts you haven't learned to treat others with respect, even those you may not like.

Au contraire.
And there's very few I don't "like", although that's kind of a strange term. But Fred Villare would be on the very top of that list. And the second on that list....and the third on that list.

Your rant was not only against Fred, but against me who you've never met.

No. It really wasn't. Perhaps you should read what was written again, but with an open mind and a bit less defensively. If it offended you in any way, I humbly apologize. I sincerely do. Not because I should, but because I think we probably have the same love and respect for Kenpo. It was ALL about Freddie - whom, my guess is, you've never met and don't know squat about. I have and I do.

I've read many things on this board I disagree with but I respect that the opinion of someone else.

As do I. See that? We have things in common. That's good, no?

I VERY rarely post to this board though because there is always someone who can't respect others opinions. It's sad.

No, it's not really sad, it's Martial life and we all deal with. As you do, and I do. You should post more often, it's a pretty cool place.

Keep training, my brother. My best wishes to all you do, all I do, and all that everyone does. Best wishes, bro.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

The cycle of Life... empires rise, ebb, flow, and decline. With the years left to me, I hope to share my model of kenpo with a few more people before I die... hopefully, a few people who will pass it on. I am -- as with so many things -- of two minds about martial conduct in places like forums. On the one hand, we ought to strive for the warrior-scholar mentality in all we do. On the other hand, lifelong martial artists are typically warriors at heart. Is anyone surprised when the scorpion stings the frog? We ought not be too surprised when martial artists state strong opinions, then defend them.

 

[ShotoNoob]

As someone who's trained for over 25 years almost exclusively in Kempo and a Master in it I'll give my opinion on this topic. I've also had long discussions with my instructors who were some of the first to teach it in the 70s so I have a good background on the recent history of it. There were some good points made in previous posts and some that missed the mark.

|
Could you summarize the strength of Kempo over the traditional styles of karate, or even MMA as we see it demonstrated in the UFC?

 

[Touch Of Death]

|
Could you summarize the strength of Kempo over the traditional styles of karate, or even MMA as we see it demonstrated in the UFC?

I would say, the footwork is what separates Kenpo from the traditional styles. There is no teaching of one thing, and then having them do something completely different against a body, meaning, there isn't a sport version, and a traditional version.

 

[hoshin1600]

ill go down this rabbit hole as well....
Touch of Death, so what your saying is that you spar from a "half moon stance" and use the half moon stepping while sparing? your comment would also imply that you never use a front horse stance while doing basics?

 

[Touch Of Death]

ill go down this rabbit hole as well....
Touch of Death, so what your saying is that you spar from a "half moon stance" and use the half moon stepping while sparing? your comment would also imply that you never use a front horse stance while doing basics?

I don't know the term half moon, and of course we use the horse stance, but we turn our torsos for center line, which makes it different from some schools. I meant thet we don't do deep stance forms and kata, but I don't speak for all Kempos and Kenpos.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

|
Could you summarize the strength of Kempo over the traditional styles of karate, or even MMA as we see it demonstrated in the UFC?

Sure. The MMA propensity towards calling kenpo a TMA is patently ludicrous. MMA is a blend of recent and older fighting art approaches. So is kenpo. MMA, because of the level of athleticism required to prepare for the ring, views the rest of the "unconditioned" martial arts world as being as uninformed as they are out of shape. So they (MMA practitioners) combine moves and tactics from other arts which may, in fact, constitute liabilities. E.g., turning completely around with a rear-leg roundhouse (as in Thai), thus leaving your back exposed to your opponent for nearly 50% of the time. That's fine in the ring, but if you swing that kick at the head of a knife-weilding attacker in a bar, you may find yourself with a suddenly-ill-functioning kidney.

Kenpo is TMA, plus boxing, plus old judo and jujutsu, tweaked for fighting. Locals in the streets of Hawaii getting harassed and harangued by servicemen in the 40's and 50's spawned an approach to short, fast bursts of strikes to vital targets (i.e., eyes, throat, temple, knees) so single locals could hash out their differences with multiple attackers in the bars and streets near Pearl. It was not made for character development; it did not come from ancient, proud Samurai traditions. It was a bunch of street rats, summarizing and codifying their bootleg martial arts for brawling in back-alleys. Judo has a proud University and Olympic tradition, and the ultimate goal is the purification of self. Karate emanates from the Japanese culture of making sure executions are pristine, and in keeping with tradition.
Kenpo is for breaking peoples bones, in brawls.

 

[Tez3]

The MMA propensity towards calling kenpo a TMA is patently ludicrous

I would have to say that it must be a localised to you thing if you think MMA is calling kenpo anything because outside the US kenpo isn't well known at all, so it's not all of MMA calling kenpo anything. Most of us have never heard of it.