I don't think I've got a handle on the terms you're using. Could you explain what you mean by traditional fighting and strategic fighting and how MMA and boxing fit into one category or the other?
Too Intellectual????
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I don't think I've got a handle on the terms you're using. Could you explain what you mean by traditional fighting and strategic fighting and how MMA and boxing fit into one category or the other?
Technically from you're point of view, there would be no difference and probably seems a little silly to you. The way I see it is that pugilism has been around for eon's. MMA is new in that sense and combines different fighting methods and skills. You have do many different ways of taking an opponent out. Boxing had one way. To me personally I term that traditional and strategic fighting. Not about category or anything, just on a style basis if you will. I hope that is understandable, difficult for to convey on a forum.
EddieCyrax
Blue Belt
M.M.A. = Mixed Martial Arts......Kenpo, boxing, wrestling, etc.....All these influenced Liddell......I have actually listened to many of his interview, and he speaks to this kenpo influence on many occasions.....There is a wonderful youtube clip of Liddell at a seminar discussing his spinning back kick, the mechanics, and strategy for set up/execution.....
I do not see where his retirement from MMA has any relevance on his training or the styles he pursued.....perhaps he got tired of getting punched in the face.....
What is your basis for your statement. Yes, Kenpo/Kempo numbers have declined, but I would not characterize this as an extinct art. There are still plenty of practitioners/schools that teach Parker/Tracy/Villari.
Just looking to get more people to follow your trolling here.....I am sorry I fell into your Troll Bait....
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I think we all need to agree that MMA is a term that refers to a sport which has been codified under a unified ruleset since about 2001. Prior to this, there wasn't "MMA" per se, but rather were different fighting traditions that all functionally rolled into MMA: pancrase, vale tudo, shooto, etc.
At one time, these were all distinct... now they're just different flavors of MMA.
MMA is no more a hodge podge of mixed up styles than hapkido is, anymore. In my opinion.
At one time, these were all distinct... now they're just different flavors of MMA.
MMA is no more a hodge podge of mixed up styles than hapkido is, anymore. In my opinion.
EddieCyrax
Blue Belt
I think we all need to agree that MMA is a term that refers to a sport which has been codified under a unified ruleset since about 2001. Prior to this, there wasn't "MMA" per se, but rather were different fighting traditions that all functionally rolled into MMA: pancrase, vale tudo, shooto, etc.
At one time, these were all distinct... now they're just different flavors of MMA.
MMA is no more a hodge podge of mixed up styles than hapkido is, anymore. In my opinion.
Agree to a point....there are still many MMA fighters that have mixed backgrounds. Granted they have modified their training to be successful in the cage, but you can see their influences when they fight....ie...Lyoto Machida.
Just saying
Hanzou
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Please note, I'm not saying that Liddell has ever denied his Kenpo roots, or that you can't figure that Liddell has a Kenpo background if you do a bit a digging.
I'm saying that if you just watch Liddell fight, there's nothing that really separates him from a standard MMA fighter outside of his preference for power punching. People aren't going to associate that distinction with Kenpo, they're going to associate it with Boxing/Kickboxing. His retirement was brought up because he's not fighting anymore, so newer MMA fans aren't seeing him fight at all. The new hotness in MMA is Ronda Rousey, Chris Weidman, Jon Jones, and others. Chuck Liddell and the old guard from the late 90's/00's are considered old news.
Bjj benefits from MMA because the Guard is a distinctly Bjj move. Bjj was also the primary MMA art when it burst onto the scene, so everyone associates ground grappling with Bjj. It also helps that no MMA fighter would be caught dead without at least a working knowledge of Bjj tactics. Muay Thai benefits from MMA in a similar fashion with its standing clinches and knee and elbow strikes.
Kenpo doesn't benefit from that type of distinction. There is no move that only Kenpo does, most people don't even know what Kenpo is. Hell, I've been in martial arts for most of my life, and if someone asked me what Kenpo/Kempo was, I really wouldn't be able to give them a good answer because there's so many different types of it.
I never said that Kenpo was an extinct art. I said that the general population, and even members of the MA community don't know what it is exactly. That's a problem that Kenpo proponents need to solve.
ballen0351
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Bit of digging?? How about look at his arm its tattooed on him
Hanzou
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In all my years watching Liddell, I never noticed it. :shrug:
EddieCyrax
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Just because you cant explain it does not mean their is a problem for others to solve......Egotistical Much?!?
Don't all arts punch/kick/grapple/lock/throw ????? Yet somehow we can distinguish the characteristics of each art....
I do not follow your logic path.....
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I see your point and agree with you. What I'm suggesting is that, even guys like Lyoto Machida train MMA in order to synthesize all of their skills specific to the sport in which they intend to participate. Lyoto Machida came into MMA with a background in BJJ (black belt) and Karate (Shotokan or something). He's also well versed in Sumo, IIRC. Anyway, the point is, he synthesizes all of these skills by training with Anderson Silva, Big Nog, and other MMAists. The skills translate to MMA, just as MMA skills translate to "the street" but in order to compete in MMA he is training MMA... AND that other stuff.
Hanzou
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Its not about being egotistical, its about the fact that experienced martial artists should know what Kenpo is, but don't because its such an ambiguous and broad term. Heck, I know what some pretty obscure Chinese and Japanese MA are, but Kenpo is an entirely different matter. I'm guessing that I'm not alone in that regard.
TKD is known for its spectacular kicking. Aikido is known for its fluid wrist locks and spectacular breakfalls. Judo is distinguished by its jacket based throws. Bjj is known for its ground fighting and numerous submissions. Muay Thai is known for its brutal kicks, clinches, and knees and elbows.
Kenpo is known for what exactly?
That's unfortunate. The logic path I'm using is pretty simple to follow.
I thought everyone knew about his tattoos! If you look at Wikipedia ( the first 'go to' for many) it's on the first line that he studied karate and Kenpo! He's also mentioned it in several interviews that I've read and listened to.
EddieCyrax
Blue Belt
EddieCyrax
Blue Belt
I see your point and agree with you. What I'm suggesting is that, even guys like Lyoto Machida train MMA in order to synthesize all of their skills specific to the sport in which they intend to participate. Lyoto Machida came into MMA with a background in BJJ (black belt) and Karate (Shotokan or something). He's also well versed in Sumo, IIRC. Anyway, the point is, he synthesizes all of these skills by training with Anderson Silva, Big Nog, and other MMAists. The skills translate to MMA, just as MMA skills translate to "the street" but in order to compete in MMA he is training MMA... AND that other stuff.
Agree......I would still argue the individual styles still can be partially seen through the synthesize.
If you cage fight, you need to train to be successful in that environment......
EddieCyrax
Blue Belt
Lastly, Isnt this the Kenpo/Kempo board?
I am sure no one on this forum understands what Kempo is........"rolls eyes"
I am sure no one on this forum understands what Kempo is........"rolls eyes"
ballen0351
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Just because you dont does not mean others dont.
Hanzou
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Isn't this topic about Kenpo/Kempo losing out popularity wise to MMA/Bjj?
So clearly I'm not the only one who has very little info about Kenpo.
ballen0351
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And clearly your not an "experienced Martial Artist" Nor are BJJ UFC tapout fanboys
Hanzou
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Even if that's the case, he's been retired for over 4 years, and even before that his popularity in MMA was declining. Its all about Rousey, Weidman, Jones, Hendricks, Faber, etc. these days.
I'll agree with Hanzou, I'm not really sure what is characteristic of kenpo. In know the spelling ranges from kenpo, kenpo, ke?po. The few things I've seen are seemingly long sequences of moves done with a compliant partner and a bit of a jack of all trades approach ranging from a multitude of unorthodox strikes to some standing locks and throws, with an emphasis on "the deadly" techniques. I've head that they used to train and spar hard back in the day but don't now.
Rather than point out that just because HAnzou doesn't know what defines kenpo doesn't mean that no one else does, why don't you just help him out and tell him? I'm curious.
I don't train kenpo, never have. But if I were to guess why it's less popular I'd wager that there seems to be a lack of alive training in my limited exposure. I think a lot of martial arts take the long route when it comes to developing fighting ability, that's not necessarily a bad thing if you're just looking for a physical outlet, like some do with tennis. Back in the day guys may have trained many hours a day, forms and compliant drills may have been a more worthy endeavor, now a lot of people are lucky to train three days a week. You have to optimize your training time , skills that aren't absolutely necessary to fight are a waste of time for many people. It seems the martial sports do just that, they practice things that directly relate to success in a fight. I'm speaking in general terms here not specifically about kenpo but perhaps some arts need to evolve with the times to fit modern needs.
Rather than point out that just because HAnzou doesn't know what defines kenpo doesn't mean that no one else does, why don't you just help him out and tell him? I'm curious.
I don't train kenpo, never have. But if I were to guess why it's less popular I'd wager that there seems to be a lack of alive training in my limited exposure. I think a lot of martial arts take the long route when it comes to developing fighting ability, that's not necessarily a bad thing if you're just looking for a physical outlet, like some do with tennis. Back in the day guys may have trained many hours a day, forms and compliant drills may have been a more worthy endeavor, now a lot of people are lucky to train three days a week. You have to optimize your training time , skills that aren't absolutely necessary to fight are a waste of time for many people. It seems the martial sports do just that, they practice things that directly relate to success in a fight. I'm speaking in general terms here not specifically about kenpo but perhaps some arts need to evolve with the times to fit modern needs.
