Too Intellectual????

[ShotoNoob]

Have you read this thread or any of the other threads here? The TMA crowd (of which I consider myself part of) are rather dismissive and u accepting of mma. I've been to tna schools and heard plenty of mma and style bashing....

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For the record, I am a dyed-in-the-wool TMA. Perhaps the biggest mistake a TMA can make when it comes to application, readiness for fighting, is to be dismissive of MMA, imo.
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As with K-Man, the TMA schools in my area do not talk down MMA. In fact, although there are some opinions & attitudes about TMA vs. TMA styles, other than mild derogatory comment, there is little open criticism of one TMA style over another. At my current school, I have never heard any one criticize another TMA style or MMA.
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The MMA schools do, however, talk down the TMA schools a al Matt Thorton, their own version of, "TMA is weak & flawed, etc." I think a lot of this has to do with business promotion; much has to do with the MMA crowd being of the mind, "I would rather fight than switch;" which I translate into, "I would rather fight, period."

 

[ShotoNoob]

MATT THORTON ON ESSENTIAL QUALITIES OF THE GOOD MMA FIGHTER:
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On the better approach to martial arts, I pretty much throw out the Matt Thornton mode. I do have some common ground with Matt, really I can relate the Shotokan karate curriculum as an illustration. NOT NOW.
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Differences aside, Matt is a talented MMA coach & successful MA school owner. And one of the aspects of doing both of these successfully is that Matt does NOT weigh too much on intellectualizing. In fact, IMO, he captures perfectly the main qualities of the successful MMA competitor. He goes on to say that the qualities he's talking about do not comprise the best MMA competitors, but a high percentage of the successful ones.
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To me, these two qualities are right out of a sports playbook. And I agree that Matt is right. The two qualities are:
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1. IN great shape physically, i.e. physical conditioning.
2. Aggressive. Acting with a high level of emotional aggression.
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Matt states that these two qualities will carry you to success a great deal of the time in MMA. These are the kind of competitors who win MMA contests, he says.
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Matt, HOWEVER, does not define these qualities as how to become the best MMA fighter. He layers on skill & mental peace of mind.
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And before we tackle Matt's theory as lacking or all wet, the KSW 31 KO of Rolles Gracie by Mariusz P___________, is a prime example of Matt's Maxim of the 2 successful qualities of the MMA fighter. The KO vid is still out on the 'net. An astounding confirmation of Matt Thorton's, reverse intellect rule of success for MMA....

 

[drop bear]

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For the record, I am a dyed-in-the-wool TMA. The biggest mistake a TMA can make when it comes to application, readiness for fighting, is to be dismissive of MMA, imo.
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As with K-Man, the TMA schools in my area do not talk down MMA. In fact, although there are some opinions & attitudes about TMA vs. TMA styles, other than mild derogatory comment, there is little open criticism of one TMA style over another. At my current school, I have never heard any one criticize another TMA style or MMA.
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The MMA schools do, however, talk down the TMA schools a al Matt Thorton, their own brand of TMA is weak & flawed, etc. I think a lot of this has to do with business promotion, a lot has to do with the MMA crowd being of the mind, "I would rather fight than switch;" which I translate into, "I would rather fight, period."

Fighting is the core function of mma. If flaws are discussed it is discussed on the merits of how good the fighting is.

So there are two parts here. People who do martial arts for other reasons. Which is fine do what you want. And the fighting application which gets critiqued.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Fighting is the core function of mma. If flaws are discussed it is discussed on the merits of how good the fighting is.

So there are two parts here. People who do martial arts for other reasons. Which is fine do what you want. And the fighting application which gets critiqued.

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Ah yeah. Thought I was with you on this. Oh, I know, too intellectual....

 

[drop bear]

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Ah yeah. Thought I was with you on this. Oh, I know, too intellectual....

Intellectual is not always a compliment. sometimes it is used for people who substitute education for common sense.

This might be applicable here. Knowing the theory doesn't always make you punch or kick any better.

Intellectual might be knowing that a round kick targets the perennial nerve.

Common sense might be an actual method of nailing shin on leg.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Intellectual is not always a compliment. sometimes it is used for people who substitute education for common sense.

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oh, my tender heart...

This might be applicable here. Knowing the theory doesn't always make you punch or kick any better.

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Oh, oh, not according to the KARATE by Jesse article on Okinawan Karate vs. Japanese Karate and so endorsed by K_MAN himself. Okinawan based on WHY, Japanese based on HOW. K-Man to me is a mix of how & why, but very why-ie in presentation.
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And what do we have institutions of higher learning for: we should according to you just get the result by just doing stuff. Even MATT Thorton would disagree with you so strong here (Matt has a coaching system called the "I" training.).

Intellectual might be knowing that a round kick targets the perennial nerve.
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Common sense might be an actual method of nailing shin on leg.

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Intellectually, I don't see the discord. Put knowledge into application correctly. Matt Thorton would be right with me, he's a sharp coach & much better business man than I.
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STORY OF EARLY-ON TRAINING.
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at 1st TMA school, assistant instructor, black-belt, criticized me for being too analytical. Banged me around a bit in class training. Actually he was frustrated 'cause a paying job he was looking for wasn't opening up. One day challenged me to sparring. No contact. I don't like sparring, the sissy / bookworm I am.
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He stood us apart fighting distance, and said he would announce "GO," did I understand? I said yes. He just started to utter go and I sprang forward and hit him in the face (the 1/4" inch barrier) using the very 1st 1-step taught. He stood flatfooted & simply said, "You won," turned & walked away and hardly ever said anything to me again.
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MORAL: Don't judge a book by it's stereotyped cover. After all, the critique is fighting,,,, as you just said yourself.....

 

[drop bear]

Oh, oh, not according to the KARATE by Jesse article on Okinawan Karate vs. Japanese Karate and so endorsed by K_MAN himself. Okinawan based on WHY, Japanese based on HOW. K-Man to me is a mix of how & why, but very why-ie in presentation.
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And what do we have institutions of higher learning for: we should according to you just get the result by just doing stuff. Even MATT Thorton would disagree with you so strong here.

K man endorses all sorts of stuff. I endorse other stuff.

 

[drop bear]

Intellectually, I don't see the discord. Put knowledge into application correctly. Matt Thorton would be right with me, he's a sharp coach and much better business man than I.

Because people think intellectual knowledge is a substitute for practical skill. Where intellectual knowledge is an addition to practical skill.

So people can go on about the 7 core principles of punching or chi strength, mental clarity,science and so on. But if they put the gloves on and get man handled they are wrong.

 

[ShotoNoob]

K man endorses all sorts of stuff. I endorse other stuff.

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Yeah, but you make it sound like my stuff is bad stuff. It's a forum so by definition we're going to have all kind of stuff. Intellectually that's how I look at it.
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You remind ME of that senior-belt kickboxing type I wiped out in my first sparring test / current dojo. He was pissed for a month before he even started to calm down. He actually became quite cordial once he let go of trying to kill off the school intellectual who embarrassed him so in front of the entire dojo. TEMPER TEMPER.
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The lesson is as you've said, fighting (then) is the critique. His WELL CONDITIONED, AGGRESSIVE style massive fail. You know, the standard MMA formula.
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Edit: 1-DAY in class right after our bout he was assisting the 2nd degree BB helping me. He tried to start a fight with me. the 2nd degree came over and reassigned him to a 3rd degree black-belt who had also tried to bully me in an evening class. Well the kickboxer senior-belt proceeded to pound the heck out of the 3rd degree black-belt, with his Conditioning & Aggression. Of course I was chuckling to myself whole time (see footnote).
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2nd degree black-belt comes over to me and says softly, "He's got strength & aggression, you've got control."
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Footnote: Intellectually, trying not to.

 

[drop bear]

One day challenged me to sparring. No contact. I don't like sparring, the sissy / bookworm I am.

He challenged you to no contact sparring?

What on earth is that?

I am envisioning a dance off.

 

[drop bear]

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Yeah, but you make it sound like my stuff is bad stuff. It's a forum so by definition we're going to have all kind of stuff. Intellectually that's how I look at it.
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You remind ME of that senior-belt kickboxing type I wiped out in my first sparring test / current dojo. He was pissed for a month before he even started to calm down. He actually became quite cordial once he let go of trying to kill off the school intellectual who embarrassed him so in front of the entire dojo. TEMPER TEMPER.
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The lesson is as you've said, fighting (then) is the critique. His WELL CONDITIONED, AGGRESSIVE style massive fail. You know, the standard MMA formula.

Are you fighting anybody any good? Or just toweling up whatever goobers you have to hand.

Ok. The issue is I beat a guy up once as well. You need to stop presenting the one sparring session you did in your life with random guy as evidence over everything else.

Go sparr a quality fighter.

 

[K-man]

K man endorses all sorts of stuff. I endorse other stuff.

You might find, if we trained together, that we endorse similar stuff.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Because people think intellectual knowledge is a substitute for practical skill. Where intellectual knowledge is an addition to practical skill.

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Which people? The people you dominate in martial arts, you mean.

So people can go on about the 7 core principles of punching or chi strength, mental clarity,science and so on. But if they put the gloves on and get man handled they are wrong.

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And some other people can do the "fighting critique" & fail massively against a mentally disciplined karate fighter (which is a minority I'll give you that.). In fact, Matt Thorton's greatest attribute for success is also his weakness when he comes to face a traditional karate fighter. Intellectual capacity. My very first sparring match (not counting my very early challenge from another student who proceeded to abandon the techniques we were training and punch like a boxer in the face), with the assistant instructor of my 1st TMA school proved that. READ.

 

[drop bear]

You might find, if we trained together, that we endorse similar stuff.

Yeah quite possible. But as far as k man endorsed it thread closed. I am going to call shenanigans.

I also would pretend to assume if I endorse something it is the end of the discussion either.

 

[drop bear]

You might find, if we trained together, that we endorse similar stuff.

And as I said in another thread with the mma vs bjj methodology you would find that it gets even more similar in concept.

 

[K-man]

Yeah quite possible. But as far as k man endorsed it thread closed. I am going to call shenanigans.

I also would pretend to assume if I endorse something it is the end of the discussion either.

I know we live in the same country and supposedly speak the same language, but what exactly are you trying to say here?

What I meant in my post was I agree with much of what you post because it makes sense within my understanding whether I undertake the same training or not. On the other hand, I feel you overlook the similarities and try to focus on the differences without necessarily understanding why those differences exist.

 

[drop bear]

I know we live in the same country and supposedly speak the same language, but what exactly are you trying to say here?

What I meant in my post was I agree with much of what you post because it makes sense within my understanding whether I undertake the same training or not. On the other hand, I feel you overlook the similarities and try to focus on the differences without necessarily understanding why those differences exist.

You are being used as the infallible rock of truth.

Which I don't think you would endorse.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Are you fighting anybody any good? Or just toweling up whatever goobers you have to hand.

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You mean goobers to you? The intellectual point is that so many think they are better. I just train to get better.

Ok. The issue is I beat a guy up once as well. You need to stop presenting the one sparring session you did in your life with random guy as evidence over everything else.

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It is kind of a 1-dimensional picture over the internet. Yet it was the perfect illustration, as I've written about. In principle. In person.

Go sparr a quality fighter.

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I really don't spend time on free sparring. I mostly only free sparred for my testing, and my current school has acceded to this since I have demonstrated I can handle myself. It's really not an issue for them the way it is for you here @ MT.
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What interest's me is getting more power into my form, including that hard ki, K-Man was taking about. I also enjoy demonstrating kihon form & overcoming my opponents with kihon-based form. Blows their minds. The traditional instructors like it cause it vindicates the traditional values. Right now, I'm reworking the Heian kata, and taking a look at the bunkai along the lines of K-Man, as well as the presented structures. Lots; & lots to do.
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Certain of the serious students & instructors are now trying to figure out how to get to my level of control, I'll replace "mental clarity" with "mental acuity" for brevity sake. Training, not smashing heads like RollesGrace massive fail, not what I'm into. His opponent is riding high for now. I remember when Chuck Liddell got on the receiving end. UGLY.

 

[drop bear]

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Which people? The people you dominate in martial arts, you mean.


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And some other people can do the "fighting critique" & fail massively against a mentally disciplined karate fighter (which is a minority I'll give you that.). In fact, Matt Thorton's greatest attribute for success is also his weakness when he comes to face a traditional karate fighter. Intellectual capacity. My very first sparring match (not counting my very early challenge from another student who proceeded to abandon the techniques we were training and punch like a boxer in the face), with the assistant instructor of my 1st TMA school proved that. READ.

No they would be the people I don't dominate because they tend not to frequent places that actual fighting happens.

I know guys who are intellectual who would scoff at your thought process.

It works like this. There are four of us standing around a guy holding a pen and we are discussing what would happen if he let go. And we are having an intellectual discussion about would it go up,down,left,or right. And at the end of the discussion we reach an impasse and walk off with the conclusion that we will never really know what happens.

When we could have just let go of the pen.

 

[drop bear]

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You mean goobers to you? The intellectual point is that so many think they are better. I just train to get better.

Yes you argument is that sports method has these limitations. Are you sparring with someone who is successful at the sports method. Not just the guy in your dojo who is a bit emotional.