Hanzou
Grandmaster
Well since I'm wrong about everything, and ignorant of martial arts, perhaps you could explain the declining popularity of Kempo described in the OP.
Too Intellectual????
- Thread starter Hand Sword
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Well since I'm wrong about everything, and ignorant of martial arts, perhaps you could explain the declining popularity of Kempo described in the OP.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
got any proof it actually is or is it a lack of youtube clips that makes you believe this?
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Did you read the OP?
Another thread from this forum about a possible decline;
Is Kenpo in a decline MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Decline in people doing it has little bearing on people knowing what it is. Your claim was "members of the MA community dont even know what it is" then you said "its about the FACT that experienced martial artist should know what Kenpo is but dont."
I dont know if there is or is not a decline. I dont really care there is only one guy in this forum that spends all his effort telling everyone how their art is loosing popularity to BJJ/MMA
I dont know if there is or is not a decline. I dont really care there is only one guy in this forum that spends all his effort telling everyone how their art is loosing popularity to BJJ/MMA
Hanzou
Grandmaster
You do understand that this thread is about Kenpo declining and losing popularity to Bjj/MMA right?
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Do You I quoted YOUR posts
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Of course, which is why I wrote post #53.
Why are you in this thread if you don't care about the topic of discussion?
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Why are you claiming its a FACT experienced martial artists dont know what Kenpo is?
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
I did where is the proof its in the decline? Someones opinion and lack of youtube clips or an abundance of "good looking" people doing BJJ is silly. Are there actual numbers out there?
Hanzou
Grandmaster
You have Kenpo artists on here making threads and posting that there is. I would ask them that question.
EddieCyrax
Blue Belt
I do not have the desire to educate Hanzou as he has proven on many threads not to be a willing student. He has already made his mind up about how the entire world works.
Mephisto, Legitimate question: What experience with Kempo/Kenpo have you used to form your opinion? Many things you see on youtube are what I would describe as demonstrations.( I have my own opinions about these, but that is for a different time with fellow kempoists) There are also many McDojos, but that is with all TMAs. My school contains scenario pressure drills, lively sparring (not point), kata, pressured self defense, wrist/arm/leg locks, take downs, throws, etc all on non-compliant partners. Strong emphasis on structure, frame, body mechanics, power delivery,
Do we train for the cage? No.
From my experience Kempo and BJJ compliment each other very nicely. (ie Chuck Lidell - just switch BJJ for wrestling)
I do not agree that Kempo is irrelevant.
Thanks for the reply Eddie. I train in FMA, a lot of what you see of FMA online is compliant demos but there's more to it than that. Like what you've said about kenpo there's striking, throws, and locks in addition to the attention given to weapons. Most FMA tends to have an approach that falls in line with the RBSD crowd and sounds like what you mention about kenpo.
I like the realistic approach of these arts, they certainly do not train for the ring or any sport. That being said, mma and sports training offers a solid base to build upon where a high level of proficiency can be reached in the basic technique areas ( grappling, striking). Adding the street focus of the other mentioned arts to a sport makes for a strong fighter. Perhaps the best answer to the street vs sport debate is to do both. But if I were pushed to choose one I'd put my bet on the sports fighter in most cases. Full disclosure I also train boxing and did a stent in bjj. I think that the guys I met in BJJ and train with in boxing are generally better equipped for a fight than the FMA crowd, of course this isn't always the case.
I like the realistic approach of these arts, they certainly do not train for the ring or any sport. That being said, mma and sports training offers a solid base to build upon where a high level of proficiency can be reached in the basic technique areas ( grappling, striking). Adding the street focus of the other mentioned arts to a sport makes for a strong fighter. Perhaps the best answer to the street vs sport debate is to do both. But if I were pushed to choose one I'd put my bet on the sports fighter in most cases. Full disclosure I also train boxing and did a stent in bjj. I think that the guys I met in BJJ and train with in boxing are generally better equipped for a fight than the FMA crowd, of course this isn't always the case.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
No one is saying that Kenpo is irrelevant. The question of this thread was why Kenpo is supposedly losing ground to MMA/Bjj. We're simply providing some possible reasons why.
Also, there is Bjj/MMA out there that trains for self defense outside the cage/ring. My Bjj school for example trains for both self defense and sport. If Kenpo isn't offering a sport option, that could also be another reason people are choosing Bjj/MMA over it.
Also, there is Bjj/MMA out there that trains for self defense outside the cage/ring. My Bjj school for example trains for both self defense and sport. If Kenpo isn't offering a sport option, that could also be another reason people are choosing Bjj/MMA over it.
I thought about mentioning the self defense component of BJJ in my last post. A lot of people unfamiliar with BJJ may not be aware of this. The advantage of a system that offers a competitive component is the experienced gained through regular training with resistant partners. You can look up BJJ for example and find hundreds of videos of people training with resistant partners and see similiar experience levels and practitioners that can reliably demonstrate the techniques they train in real time. The competitive aspect provides a means of quality control.
I've also trained at gyms in styles like hapkido and Japanese jujutsu that also sparred. The difference was the sparring instruction was minimal and most of the techniques trained were not applied while sparring. I've heard the same thing from friends and other practitioners regarding other TMA as well. While its good that these styles spar the instructors did not seem to know or tech how to time or move with an opponent who resists. The hapkido instructor I trained under was former special forces near a large military base. I have no doubt he was a badass but he was limited by the confines of his brand of hapkido. Coincidently he started training with a BJJ purple belt that was also teaching out of his school. I think a base in BJJ combined with his hapkido was a great combination. Not sure if he ever brought his grappling training into the hapkido dojang.
So back to the OP kenpo may or may not be declining in popularity but popularity in other TMA may be falling. One way for a system to prove its relevance to modern arts is to emphasize the basic techniques in a competitive format. Develope a format for resistant training that favors your style. The Gracie's did this with BJJ, they removed time limits and other penalties that were common in other grappling arts. Boxing only allows punches. The result is a high level of proficiency of basic techniques. You can still train the more lethal and combative stuff right along with the sport.
I've also trained at gyms in styles like hapkido and Japanese jujutsu that also sparred. The difference was the sparring instruction was minimal and most of the techniques trained were not applied while sparring. I've heard the same thing from friends and other practitioners regarding other TMA as well. While its good that these styles spar the instructors did not seem to know or tech how to time or move with an opponent who resists. The hapkido instructor I trained under was former special forces near a large military base. I have no doubt he was a badass but he was limited by the confines of his brand of hapkido. Coincidently he started training with a BJJ purple belt that was also teaching out of his school. I think a base in BJJ combined with his hapkido was a great combination. Not sure if he ever brought his grappling training into the hapkido dojang.
So back to the OP kenpo may or may not be declining in popularity but popularity in other TMA may be falling. One way for a system to prove its relevance to modern arts is to emphasize the basic techniques in a competitive format. Develope a format for resistant training that favors your style. The Gracie's did this with BJJ, they removed time limits and other penalties that were common in other grappling arts. Boxing only allows punches. The result is a high level of proficiency of basic techniques. You can still train the more lethal and combative stuff right along with the sport.
For the record, I have no idea if the popularity of Kenpo is increasing, decreasing, or staying the same. The original poster doesn't cite any sources for data on this theoretical decline, so I don't know if it's real or just something he's seeing in his own particular circle.
I don't know that the nature of Kenpo is any more obscure than any other moderately popular art. I probably have as much general knowledge about Kenpo as I do for most other arts that I don't personally practice. It doesn't have a specialized focus that you can boil down to a catch phrase like TKD ("high kicks") or judo ("big throws"), but those catch phrases are oversimplified anyway..
I don't know that the nature of Kenpo is any more obscure than any other moderately popular art. I probably have as much general knowledge about Kenpo as I do for most other arts that I don't personally practice. It doesn't have a specialized focus that you can boil down to a catch phrase like TKD ("high kicks") or judo ("big throws"), but those catch phrases are oversimplified anyway..
I agree with what you have said. MMA is all about "integration". But are we there yet?
Can your
- TKD instructor be able to help you to integrate the kicking skill with the throwing skill?
- Aikido instructor be able to help you to integrate the wrist locks skill with the kicking skill?
- Judo instructor be able to help you to integrate the throwing skill with the punching skill?
- BJJ instructor be able to help you to integrate the ground skill with the kicking/punching?
- MT instructor be able to help you to integrate the kicking/clinching/knees/elbow skill with the ground skill?
- ...
If you need to find an instructor to help you to do the "integration" task, whom from which style will you look for? Many MMA gyms have many instructor from boxing, MT, wrestling, Judo, BJJ, .... We still haven't seen many instructors who can do all the above yet. IMO, 10 or even 20 more years of evolution will be needed to be able to reach to that true "integration" level.
The interest thing is, the moment that you have started to do your "integration" task, the moment that the term "style" will have very little meaning to you. IMO, it's much more fun to discuss MA on that level.
You can use
- kick from any style to set up punch from any style,
- punch to set up clinch from any style,
- clinch to set up take down from any style,
- take down to set up follow on striking, or ground game from any style.
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My instructor can, he started as a Judoka then joined the army, because he was posted regularly around the world he took whatever martial art was available so has built up over four decades now of martial arts knowledge. Our students are becoming instructors themselves now with his knowledge and tutelage.
I'm curious where you get your info because there are plenty of instructors that teach what you claim doesn't exist yet. Many gyms still have a striking or ground coach specifically but not all gyms. MMA is becoming its own art and such many places cover all aspects of the mma spectrum in one class with one teacher. While you can use strikes and grappling technuques from any style some systems have the advantage of many generations of competition and refinement. The systems that don't compete haven't reached the same level of refinement to have instructors that can use what they know in the octagon.
This can change and may change soon. The easiest way I see to do it is to encourage competition with rulesets that cater to a specific system while still remaining practical. Tkd has had years of Olympic level competition but the ruleset is too narrow and we have yet to see it gain momentum in a more realistic hands/punch focused venue. If tkd changed its favored competition format perhaps it would join Muay thai among the ranks of valued striking arts.
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