Believe me when I tell you, I haven't over-intellectualized kenpo. I have a very simple understanding. Call me a rebel. LOL
Too Intellectual????
- Thread starter Hand Sword
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So you're OK with 10 year old blackbelts from other arts, just not TKD? Can you explain why?
Yes I've read the posts in this thread, and in the six years I've been on this forum I've read quite a few posts in quite a few threads.Perhaps you could give me an example of someone bagging MMA. There are people you will admit they don't enjoy watching MMA, of which I am one, but that is totally different to "rather dismissive" or unaccepting of MMA.
Read the OP, it's pretty dismissive. I really don't care to take the time to dig further, i've dealt with your type before and taken the time to explain myself properly and it's like talking to a brick wall. If you can't find the dismissive attitude toward MMA that some people have than you really are blind. People don't give MMA it's credit just like people don't give TMA its credit. Both sides just need to agree that each has something to offer. I just think MMA is on the better path by encouraging physical conditioning and testing your ability against a resisting opponent. But MMA is certainly not everything.
[/QUOTE] Mmm. We have obviously never trained in the same schools. In thirty years I don't think I have heard any derogatory comments of MMA. I have heard plenty of criticisms of other TMA styles and schools. As to me being dismissive? Perhaps you could post an example. I have fought with many MMA and BJJ guys on this forum over the years and in recent times rather passionately with Hanzou, but not to put their styles down. They were claiming that their training was superior to TMA training, and in some cases I would agree with them. I have seen plenty of less than average TMA training. But I will always claim that the training I provide is realistic and if in the unlikely event it is ever needed, it will see my guys get home safely.[/QUOTE]
Well good for you , you've never heard an unkind word about MMA. But the fact that you've heard plenty of TMA mudslinging is one in the same. Again, the fact that you object to my post is evidence of your anti MMA attitude. I don't really care to dig up any more BS than is contained in this thread. And again, your school doesn't speak for every TMA school out there.
No one cares about your superb yet super secret training. Your whole post reeks of smugness, how can you deny that you've never heard anyone say an unkind word toward MMA training? I'm not gonna spoonfeed you everything, if you're part of the martial arts culture you've seen it. At best you are one person in an ocean of TMA that doesn't train realistically. Perhaps you are the exception.
[/QUOTE] Again, I have never seen a TMA school advertise MMA without providing MMA training. In fact here, that would constitute false advertising. But saying that, every commercial school that I know provides MMA training. Without it they wouldn't survive, unless they are teaching kids after school which is a different discussion. [/QUOTE]
Not sure what your point is here, it should be no surprise that schools pad resumes and play to trends to get students. It it's quite common now days that a school teaches one art and may or may not add parts of another and they advertise "MMA". Perhaps technically if you teach more than one art you can call what you do "MMA" but it's the same as old kung fu schools or TKD schools advertising "karate." It's a marketing ploy to get students.
[/QUOTE] Now you have ventured an opinion with no way of backing it up with facts. It depends on what you are calling athletes for starters. I consider an athlete to be a person competing in a form of physical sport. I do not consider myself an athlete.
[/QUOTE]That's fine as long as you don't have the illusion that you can defeat an MMA athlete with your brand of martial arts.
[/QUOTE] If you are talking competition at a serious level then I would agree that those guys are going to be fitter than your average martial artists but that includes TKD, Karate, Judo, Boxing, Wrestling etc. It is not confined to MMA. And why would an MMA school be best to handle a resisting opponent? Are you saying that in competitions of the above listed martial sports the competitors are not resisting? Come on! If you are talking MMA competition, of course an MMA school will provide the best training for that competition. You don't need a high IQ to work that on out, but if you are a boxer and competing in Boxing then MMA would be mostly a waste of time. As to MMA the best for teaching you to fight ... garbage. You want to learn to fight, there are places that teach other systems, like Krav, that will do that quicker and probably more effectively than MMA.[/QUOTE]
MMA is best equipping its students for reality because they train striking and grappling. Any fighter that competes will have an advantage over jo-schmo that doesn't know how to apply his craft on a resisting oppnent. It's important to train all ranges, each of the arts you mentioned havea specialty and a purpose but I doubt any practitioner of any of these arts would enter an MMA competition with is skills alone. The arts embrace each other and build on one another.
[/QUOTE] As to spiritual development ... I wouldn't know. It's never been part of my training and that includes eight years of Aikido which is an internal style.
The guys that came in were big-noters, not representative at all of BJJ. For all I know they may have had just one lesson, but they had trained 'Ju Jitsu'. I just asked then to show me some locks, holds and takedowns of which they couldn't perform one. I didn't say it was a 'match'. I invited them in to show me what they could do. If they had been any good I would have invited them to stay and train. I'm happy to learn from anyone, particularly this skilled in BJJ because in that area my training is limited.
As to me training on video .. no, I don't have any to show you and I'm not interested in posting any. Anyone is welcome to visit if they are truly interested.
As to an example of our training, any video of Taira Bunkai on Youtube such as you will find here is a big part of my Goju training ...
Tairabunkai videos
This is an example of my Aikido training ... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fPei-spftzg
My Krav training ... just look up any Krav, but that's not really TMA in the normal sense.
:asian:[/QUOTE]
Your videos are all demos, that's fine but they don't show any skill that applies to reality. I expect a sparring video to look gritty and show both participants getting hit, i'm realistic in my expectations. But if you're unwilling to show anything that's fine, you showed what you thought was a good example of your style and it was all demos, maybe you can clarify a video of actual skill and compare it to a demo. As for your BJJ challengers you just asked them to show a lock or technique and they couldn't show anything? Who was the uke? Could they strike you? Sounds rather inconclusive, if you think BJJ is so benign go to a BJJ school and ask them to demonstrate. i'm sure they'll have someone who can show you something.
Well here is the OP in full.
Not one word being dismissive of MMA. Certainly it describes today's generation of martial artists in simplistic terms but I would suggest it is no way dismissive of MMA.
I don't know where these comments came from but you are certainly being offensive. Just what is "your type"? I like to think I see both sides of a discussion and I repeat my challenge to you. Find me posts of people having a dismissive attitude towards MMA. You made the claim with no evidence. For what it's worth I think most people recognise MMA as a solid combination of other martial arts which most times include a TMA. I agree that both sides should recognise the benefits of each but I'm not sure what posts you have seen of Traditional Martial Artists having a go at MMA. Now you like MMA for any number of reasons and I doubt anyone would speak against that. As to you next point that it's a better path, then that is your opinion. Many here would have a different position and of course that depends on the viewpoint. For example, would you really claim that MMA would be the martial art of choice for a 60 year old without MA experience?
Ouch! Well good for you too.
You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder. How do you figure that MMA or BJJ guys taking a shot at TMAs is the same as mudslinging at MMA? As to my anti MMA attitude ... well, your grasp of the language is tenuous to say the least. I support MMA 100%. In terms of honest competition it is as good as it gets. How you could have the impression that I am anti MMA is beyond my ken. And what that has to do with my school ... I never claimed it was better or otherwise. All I did was state that we train to give our students the skills to defend themselves.Again you are being offensive. My training is as good as I can provide, which I assume is the same as every other instructor on this forum. There is nothing secret about my training and I have never claimed it to be better that others out there providing similar training. If you think I am smug, that is your problem. I really don't care what you think but I do object strongly to your attitude. As to your slight here on TMA not training realistically, I would suggest you read the rules on putting down other styles.
It would be interesting to hear from others on this claim. I have never seen one here that advertises MMA without providing genuine MMA training. Once you put up the shingle 'MMA' you attract students who want to compete in MMA. How do you think those guys would go if their training isn't providing them with the tools of the trade?
I am under no illusions. I don't train fighters to compete. If someone wants to do that I will refer them to a number of my friends that train and promote MMA. However, if you would like to transfer your claim to the street environment, I would suggest my guys would do at least as well against a street thug as your MMA athlete.
No! MMA is best for equipping its students to compete in the ring. Nothing in the training I provide or I train is for an MMA competition. As to anyone competing in am MMA competition with just one skill set, what is the relevance to my post or the OP. For what it's worth, I doubt anyone with just one skill set could compete in MMA these days, but that is why they call it Mixed Martial Art. Isn't that a coincidence?
Good grief! You asked for an example of my training. We don't spar in the same way that you spar in MMA. It's not that I am unwilling to share. I haven't got any video of the type you want. We don't video our training.
As to the BJJ. You make it sound as if I haven't trained with BJJ guys. Believe me I have. Every time someone here comes up with what I consider a good technique that I could use I take it to them.
Why would I think BJJ benign? Read any of my posts, I have said many times if I was younger I probably would have trained it myself. I have said in many posts that if I was going to compete in MMA, BJJ would be my choice for the ground component of my training.
I'd love to answer your question, but I've learned recently that we're just not entitled to an explanation on this board.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I think it really depends on which side of the issue you perceive yourself. From where I sit, the OP generalizes about MMA and also "this generation" negatively. This entire thread is founded on an unflattering generalization of "this generation" and suggests that this is why MMA is popular and Kenpo is on the decline. I want to be clear that I don't think the questions are unreasonable as a prompt for discussion. What I am suggesting is that there is certainly some bagging on MMA, which you don't see.
Well, I think you are being overly sensitive.
"Maybe, the UFC, MMA craze which has grown over the years gives that shock reality thirsted (conditioned) for. It's straight forward, bang, bang, bang, and choke that cat out- asleep! Knockouts and banging have always been appealing."
All that is given here is a possible reason for the possible decline in popularity of MAs that take longer to learn. What part of the above do you disagree with?
"Maybe, the UFC, MMA craze which has grown over the years gives that shock reality thirsted (conditioned) for. It's straight forward, bang, bang, bang, and choke that cat out- asleep! Knockouts and banging have always been appealing."
All that is given here is a possible reason for the possible decline in popularity of MAs that take longer to learn. What part of the above do you disagree with?
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Are you responding to me? If so, in what way am I being sensitive at all, much less overly sensitive?
When you say, "Not one word being dismissive of MMA," there is room to disagree based upon which side of the issue you land. You made an absolute statement based upon a subjective judgement. That you zeroed right in on a statement from the OP to defend suggests to me that you know you're reaching a little.
To intellectual???? Or the fad of the moment????
One thing I know about the martial arts world is that things come in waves. Meaning that one moment a system is all the rage and the next maybe not so much. We have had the Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do, BJJ and now MMA all featured prominently at one time and all had their booms. You even had some mini boom times in their as well for Reality Based Training and Krav Maga, currently Muay Thai, etc. Bottom line some times your art will be featured out front and other times not so much. MMA is here to stay because of the UFC and other MMA organizations. (there is big money for good and bad) That is not going anywhere and will dominate the martial landscape for a long time. However, other systems will boom and believe it or not they too will suffer the issues that some systems have already gone through. For instance when I was training in BJJ every day there were no kid's classes at all. Now, you will be hard pressed to find many Brazilian Jiujitsu schools without an advanced kid's program. Karate or Tae Kwon Do way back in the day did not have kid's either. However, over time a successful business model came into play and that same model continues to this day coopted by other systems. I'm seeing MMA kid's programs all over the place now in Vegas. Ten years ago you would not find them!
Someone once said to me that MMA will be TMA before you know it and you know what? He is right!!!
One thing I know about the martial arts world is that things come in waves. Meaning that one moment a system is all the rage and the next maybe not so much. We have had the Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do, BJJ and now MMA all featured prominently at one time and all had their booms. You even had some mini boom times in their as well for Reality Based Training and Krav Maga, currently Muay Thai, etc. Bottom line some times your art will be featured out front and other times not so much. MMA is here to stay because of the UFC and other MMA organizations. (there is big money for good and bad) That is not going anywhere and will dominate the martial landscape for a long time. However, other systems will boom and believe it or not they too will suffer the issues that some systems have already gone through. For instance when I was training in BJJ every day there were no kid's classes at all. Now, you will be hard pressed to find many Brazilian Jiujitsu schools without an advanced kid's program. Karate or Tae Kwon Do way back in the day did not have kid's either. However, over time a successful business model came into play and that same model continues to this day coopted by other systems. I'm seeing MMA kid's programs all over the place now in Vegas. Ten years ago you would not find them!
Someone once said to me that MMA will be TMA before you know it and you know what? He is right!!!
kid's are a blast to watch practice in any martial system!
If you have hit someone, or applied a lock, and they have ended up too far away to use gyaku tsuki as a follow up, then you use oi-tsuki.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Well, this is a fun little thread.....
I would imagine that Kempo/Kenpo is waning because most people, even within the MA community have no idea what it is exactly. My only real knowledge of Kempo came from Jeff Speakman movies I saw when I was younger.
As for Bjj and MMA, their growth is largely the result of 3 major factors:
1. The internet. Bjj and MMA exponents put their stuff online and it looks awesome and applicable. No fat guys prancing around imitating animals. You got good looking men and women (or scary looking guys like Kurt Osiander, or scantily clad bimbos on MMA candy) giving you easy to follow grappling or striking tips, and it looks great. You can also watch Bjj and MMA matches online.
I don't know why, but TMAs just don't look as good online.
2. The culture. Bjj comes from Brazil, not Asia, so the culture in many Bjj schools are totally different than the culture you'll find in traditional Asian martial arts. I was absolutely amazed at how laid back my Bjj class was. You come late? No problem. Sometimes the instructor was late, and we ended training way past closing time. We called the instructor by their first name. No bowing to anyone. We joked around with each other. We laughed while training. It was complete culture shock, but I absolutely loved it.
But beyond that, there's also the merchandise. There's all kinds of t-shirts, active gear, pants, hats, bags, and other assorted apparel associated with Bjj and MMA that just gives it a coolness factor that the TMAs don't have, and again its very attractive to a younger generation.
There's simply nothing like that for traditional martial artists.
3. The reality factor. Hoshin and Mephisto covered this very well. The UFC really changed everything 20 years ago. In my teen years, I remember when I told my friends that I did Karate. They would laugh at me and tell me that stuff didn't work. No one says that about Bjj or MMA these days. I tutor high school kids sometimes, and one of my students practices MMA. He mentioned it to his classmates and no one said anything negative about it. They thought he was some kind of superman. In another situation, I have a co-worker who was a wrestler in high school, and he's constantly looking for guys with grappling experience to train with. All except me of course, because he says that Bjj is "too brutal" because of its chokes, and arm/leg locks.
Whether valid or not, people believe that if you can fight in a ring you can fight anywhere. Its why you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't think that boxers aren't great fighters. They are, and people feel the same way about MMA fighters.
I would imagine that Kempo/Kenpo is waning because most people, even within the MA community have no idea what it is exactly. My only real knowledge of Kempo came from Jeff Speakman movies I saw when I was younger.
As for Bjj and MMA, their growth is largely the result of 3 major factors:
1. The internet. Bjj and MMA exponents put their stuff online and it looks awesome and applicable. No fat guys prancing around imitating animals. You got good looking men and women (or scary looking guys like Kurt Osiander, or scantily clad bimbos on MMA candy) giving you easy to follow grappling or striking tips, and it looks great. You can also watch Bjj and MMA matches online.
I don't know why, but TMAs just don't look as good online.
2. The culture. Bjj comes from Brazil, not Asia, so the culture in many Bjj schools are totally different than the culture you'll find in traditional Asian martial arts. I was absolutely amazed at how laid back my Bjj class was. You come late? No problem. Sometimes the instructor was late, and we ended training way past closing time. We called the instructor by their first name. No bowing to anyone. We joked around with each other. We laughed while training. It was complete culture shock, but I absolutely loved it.
But beyond that, there's also the merchandise. There's all kinds of t-shirts, active gear, pants, hats, bags, and other assorted apparel associated with Bjj and MMA that just gives it a coolness factor that the TMAs don't have, and again its very attractive to a younger generation.
There's simply nothing like that for traditional martial artists.
3. The reality factor. Hoshin and Mephisto covered this very well. The UFC really changed everything 20 years ago. In my teen years, I remember when I told my friends that I did Karate. They would laugh at me and tell me that stuff didn't work. No one says that about Bjj or MMA these days. I tutor high school kids sometimes, and one of my students practices MMA. He mentioned it to his classmates and no one said anything negative about it. They thought he was some kind of superman. In another situation, I have a co-worker who was a wrestler in high school, and he's constantly looking for guys with grappling experience to train with. All except me of course, because he says that Bjj is "too brutal" because of its chokes, and arm/leg locks.
Whether valid or not, people believe that if you can fight in a ring you can fight anywhere. Its why you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't think that boxers aren't great fighters. They are, and people feel the same way about MMA fighters.
EddieCyrax
Blue Belt
Really?!? You do realize that Chuck Lidell is a Kenpo guy.....so outdated.....ok.....
Hanzou
Grandmaster
I realize that Liddell studied Kenpo at some point, but that's only because I read his bio. His skills in boxing and wrestling are far more advertised. If someone showed me a Chuck Liddell fight, I wouldn't associate what he does with Kenpo, I would associate it with MMA.
It also doesn't help that he's retired and in his mid 40s.
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
Hanzou makes some good points. Effective use of social media and marketing strategies is a part of growing any business. MMA guys and BJJ guys have done this very well. I think the entire ShoYoRoll marketing strategy is both brilliant and ridiculous. But, they are making money hand over fist doing it.
The Brazilian culture is also appealing, although I'd say that it's become well tempered here in the USA over the decades. In the USA, we tend to appreciate timeliness, and if you want to grow your business here you have to be on time. Not everyone is enamored with bowing and the Samurai culture, and you're absolutely right that the relaxed atmosphere of a typical BJJ school is in stark contrast to the overt formality of a Japanese dojo.
I'd add to the above that the culture is, at least for a little while longer, a little more... authentic. You go into a BJJ dojo, and even if the owner is American, there are very close ties to Brazil. I'd expect that many TMA schools continue to have close affiliations with Asia, but as time goes on and the lineages pile on, those ties naturally fade.
I think, true or not, this lack of stuffiness in the gym leads to a perception of practicality. Current market mentality in many things is to pare it back to the essentials and get grungy. People aren't just jogging 5ks anymore; they're running Tough Mudders or other, similar obstacle course events. People aren't just going to the gym anymore; they want crossfit or boot camp, where they can flip tires and climb ropes and be cavemen (and cavewomen).
Will it last? Probably not. But this is where we're at. Marketing and public perception. But, it's been almost 15 years since the UFC really catapulted MMA into the public consciousness, and it's lasted pretty well so far.
The Brazilian culture is also appealing, although I'd say that it's become well tempered here in the USA over the decades. In the USA, we tend to appreciate timeliness, and if you want to grow your business here you have to be on time. Not everyone is enamored with bowing and the Samurai culture, and you're absolutely right that the relaxed atmosphere of a typical BJJ school is in stark contrast to the overt formality of a Japanese dojo.
I'd add to the above that the culture is, at least for a little while longer, a little more... authentic. You go into a BJJ dojo, and even if the owner is American, there are very close ties to Brazil. I'd expect that many TMA schools continue to have close affiliations with Asia, but as time goes on and the lineages pile on, those ties naturally fade.
I think, true or not, this lack of stuffiness in the gym leads to a perception of practicality. Current market mentality in many things is to pare it back to the essentials and get grungy. People aren't just jogging 5ks anymore; they're running Tough Mudders or other, similar obstacle course events. People aren't just going to the gym anymore; they want crossfit or boot camp, where they can flip tires and climb ropes and be cavemen (and cavewomen).
Will it last? Probably not. But this is where we're at. Marketing and public perception. But, it's been almost 15 years since the UFC really catapulted MMA into the public consciousness, and it's lasted pretty well so far.
Without some actual statistics on the numbers of students training various arts, I hesitate to make too many assumptions about which arts are growing or receding. BJJ and MMA are currently growing because they are new and in vogue and we are starting to develop enough qualified instructors to meet demand. I'm sure that growth will level off at some point.
As far as gym culture goes, that's largely a matter of personal taste. Some folks like a casual environment, some people like more ritual and formality.
I've seen plenty of good looking video online from almost every martial art. (Opinions on what looks impressive in a video also vary considerably.)
The whole merchandising thing is actually a turnoff for me. I train martial arts, but I'm not going to wear a hat/t-shirt/backpack/whatever to advertise that fact as I walk down the street.
I'm just happy that there are martial arts out there to satisfy a variety of tastes and interests.
As far as gym culture goes, that's largely a matter of personal taste. Some folks like a casual environment, some people like more ritual and formality.
I've seen plenty of good looking video online from almost every martial art. (Opinions on what looks impressive in a video also vary considerably.)
The whole merchandising thing is actually a turnoff for me. I train martial arts, but I'm not going to wear a hat/t-shirt/backpack/whatever to advertise that fact as I walk down the street.
I'm just happy that there are martial arts out there to satisfy a variety of tastes and interests.
Don't agree with that you assert there. Boxers are completely different from MMA obviously. So from point of view, MMA guys and girls are technicians rather than traditional fighters. Boxers have one aim, punch the other boxers face through the back of his head. There is no strategy, just one aim. Just my 2 cents.
I don't know about that. There's plenty of strategy at work in high-level professional boxing. (Plenty of top-notch technicians as well.)
I was just trying for definition between the two. I don't count MMA as traditional fighting, and not dissing it at all, and MMA as strategic fighting at a core level if you will.
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