To those who don't care about belt rank

[Tony Dismukes]

As for it taking 10yrs to get a black belt in BJJ, well, that would depend on the school as many people might market that they teach BJJ and might have different standards for promotion just like in all arts, but at any school that can call their art Gracie JiuJitsu not BJJ I would expect it to take 10 years or more to get a black belt. Most schools have to call it BJJ and not Gracie JiuJitsu because the Gracies have trademarked the name but the Gracies have given some dojos permission to use their name and a sensei who teaches at such a dojo was no doubt taught by the Gracies themselves or has some connection with them and therefore you can expect it to be really hard.

This is a bit of a derail, but Rorion Gracie's trademark on the term "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" was overturned in court. Rorion got the U.S. trademark and was threatening other family members who were using the term, even though the name had been commonly used in Brazil. The trademark was overturned as the result of a lawsuit by Carley Gracie, who had been teaching in the U.S. longer than Rorion had.

However during the time that Rorion had been wielding the trademark, most schools in the U.S. had to use some other term and so "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" became the new default name.

As far as the standards for promotion, they're pretty high no matter where you go in the BJJ world. The emphasis may change from school to school - some teachers might expect you to win a bunch of tournaments before being promoted, while others might expect you to be expert at teaching self-defense applications - but 10 years for a black belt is about average everywhere. You'll find variance from that, but it usually has more to do with the student than the teacher. A student with phenomenal natural talent and a great attitude who trains for hours every day might get his black belt in 4 years. Someone with less talent or time to train might get it in 15 years, or never. I've been training BJJ for 10 years now and I'm probably a couple of years away from getting my black belt. I have a friend who has been training on and off for the same time who is still a blue belt.

 

[Dirty Dog]

As for a teacher with high standards not promoting a student every month, lets say the student is really exceptional and is able to meet the sensei's standards every month as high as they might be? Im talking hypothetical as a student that good would have to be superhuman, such as if Clark Kent signed up for lessons, but if such a student does exist and is able to meet the really high standards of a really hard teacher, than why shouldn't the teacher promote?

Well, if we're going to leave the real world and turn this into a fantasy, then you're absolutely right. Because Clark Kent would need to quickly earn that belt, since it would make Superman immune to Kryptonite.

In the real world, it remains true that what matters is skill, not the belt.

 

[drop bear]

Very Philosophical, but I call BS.

I hear this quoted so often ...and maybe it's true in some systems. But a black belt in BJJ is not a beginner. And in the stuff I train it's not true either. First off, I should say that the systems I train are not Japanese rooted systems so we don't use "belts". But we do have ranks. And when you have achieved "Primary Level" or "First Instructor Grade" -- or what we consider to be "Black Belt" equivalent, no-way are you a beginner. You are a journeyman at the craft with a very solid foundation. Or to put it another way, you have your bachelors degree. Sure there is a great deal more to be learned, just as a student can pursue a masters or doctoral degree, not to mention the wisdom that comes later from many years experience in the field. Still you are way more than a beginner.

Besides, two guys I've trained under in one of these arts never even earned a "black belt" in any art, and both were definitely masters at what they did. The majority of us who trained under them were either black belts in other systems or else successful competitors. But unlike some folks, these guys could walk the walk and didn't obsess over rank.

Now I have nothing against ranking systems, They are a great way to insure a basic standard of quality and also help to motivate students. But rank really isn't that important. Don't you think that this thread has gone on long enough?

You can teach at blue in the beej?

 

[geezer]

You can teach at blue in the beej?

I wouldn't know anything about that. I train Ving Tsun and Eskrima. Did a bit of kenpo in college, and wrestled before that.

 

[MJS]

Obviously it is a joke as I was speaking hypothetically which I said so in my earlier post. What I meant was if there was a superhuman student who could meet such high standards every month why not promote them every month? I said it before and I will say it again, such a student would never exist but Im talking about a hypothetical situation. You mention time in grade. Lets forget about the concept of once a month promotion for now and just talk getting to the next grade and the time it takes to get there. To go up a belt requires a certain degree of physical and mental development, skill, knowledge, and ability. To acquire the necessary knowledge and abilities to go up a rank takes time, you're not going to acquire them instantaneously. The time it takes to acquire the knowledge and abilities perhaps should be the, "time in grade," no matter how short or long it takes the student to acquire those necessary attributes. Just something to consider. It takes time to become of the proper material for a belt promotion, and that's where time and patience comes into play with rank promotion.

Well, it's really crazy, because while those stand out shining stars are out there, they're rare. But all that aside, IMHO, handing out a rank every month, takes the value out of it. Some will disagree, and that's fine. The McDojo's of the world will thrive, because of people who're belt hungry. Fortunately, there are still many quality schools out there, that demand that you put in the blood, sweat and tears and earn that belt. As I've said, there are many factors....age, skill, ability to understand the material, are just a few.

The Gracies obviously aren't the only ones who to BJJ but they're the only ones who do, "Gracie JiuJitsu," them and others who've trained under them or who've trained under those who the Gracies have given permission to use their name. But as you said, that's beside the point. As for it taking 10 yrs to get a black belt in BJJ but not in other arts, that would depend on whose teaching it, not on the art. You have senseis who just hand out belts and then you have senseis who make their students work hard to earn the belts. I did once take classes at a BJJ school but at that particular school they used the name Gracie, they called it Gracie JiuJitsu because they had been given permission by the Gracies to do so. Anybody who the Gracies let use their name I would expect very high standards for promotion and I wouldn't be surprised for it to take a good 10 years for somebody to get a black belt there. I do not have any experience with places that taught BJJ and didn't use the Gracie name in their art so I can't say anything about how their promotions work to any degree of accuracy.

Now, you call it BS about how getting a black belt means you've reached the base. The fact of the matter is its all relative and I will state the obvious that when getting a black belt, if that means you're an expert or a serious beginner or even, for that matter, a raw beginner who was handed a black belt and is an embarrassment to ones self it depends who you got it from. As you said, you've seen lower belts with more skill than some black belts. That just goes to show how standards vary from place to place as to what a black belt is. Some places have low standards for black belt and I would not want to get a black belt at such a place.

As people have said on this thread, its not about rank its about skill and ability. I would have to say its not about rank, its about who you get the rank from and if you get a high rank from a good sensei than you will have good skill and ability, otherwise you wouldn't get it.

Tony pretty much addressed this better than I. As far as the names....a BJJ school is only going to use the Gracie name, if they're a part of that org. And yes, as Tony said, the time frame is usually pretty standard, although the pre-req's for promotion, ie: competing, etc, may vary. A good friend of mine spent 10yrs travelling to Cali, as well as attending seminars in various states, in addition to hosting his own seminars with Roy Harris. He's a quality BJJ BB, and has produced many top notch students.

 

[blindsage]

I used to study in a system with belts and I cherish the effort taken to receive those ranks. When I moved to another state and decided to try other styles and realized some of my skills translated, belt rank became less important to me, because it didn't necessarily reflect actual skill level or accomplishment. Having trained in a few styles that don't use rank now, I much prefer it because the focus is on skill, not rank. There's no forced deference, there's no questioning of skill to rank, there's less ego because of a belt. Ranking is all well and good, but I never received a black belt in my original styles (Kyokushinkai karate, and Small Circle Jujitsu), and it doesn't bother me much, because I'm self-motivated for skill development, it's what I want all the time. If you need a system of rankings as a crutch to motivate you, more power to you. I don't, and work harder for it.

 

[PhotonGuy]

In the real world, it remains true that what matters is skill, not the belt.

I think we can all agree here that we would not want to train under a sensei who just hands out belts. We want to train under senseis who make us earn the belts and that requires meeting good standards. That being said, having good skill would result in a high belt. A person with a high belt such as black belt wouldn't have the belt if they didn't have good skill, not if they got it under a sensei that we would approve of.

 

[blindsage]

We all also know that those with high skill and no black belt are still those with high skill. Belts are not required for skill.

 

[PhotonGuy]

We all also know that those with high skill and no black belt are still those with high skill. Belts are not required for skill.

And why wouldn't somebody who works hard to develop high skill pursue high rank? Provided that they train in a system that uses rank, I would think they want to see the results of their skill and hard work which comes in the form of rank, at least if they're training under a sensei that I would train under (somebody who makes their students earn their ranks instead of handing them out or selling them). For such a person to not pursue rank, it would be like a boyscout who works hard to live up to the scout oath and the scout law and to be a good scout but who doesn't pursue rank in boyscouts. True, you can be a good scout and not have a high rank such as Eagle, but it makes sense that somebody who works hard to be a good scout would want to be an Eagle Scout, that would be the proper result of somebody being a good scout.

 

[geezer]

And why wouldn't somebody who works hard to develop high skill pursue high rank? ...it makes sense that somebody who works hard to be a good scout would want to be an Eagle Scout, that would be the proper result of somebody being a good scout.

Why? Maybe because martial arts isn't the Boy Scouts!

Now my best advice to you is stop worrying about the whole belt thing and ...Mo gung kau, gung sau!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

And why wouldn't somebody who works hard to develop high skill pursue high rank? Provided that they train in a system that uses rank, I would think they want to see the results of their skill and hard work which comes in the form of rank, at least if they're training under a sensei that I would train under (somebody who makes their students earn their ranks instead of handing them out or selling them). For such a person to not pursue rank, it would be like a boyscout who works hard to live up to the scout oath and the scout law and to be a good scout but who doesn't pursue rank in boyscouts. True, you can be a good scout and not have a high rank such as Eagle, but it makes sense that somebody who works hard to be a good scout would want to be an Eagle Scout, that would be the proper result of somebody being a good scout.

Rank is just public recognition of your skill. There's nothing wrong with wanting or appreciating public recognition of your accomplishments. There's also nothing wrong with not caring about public recognition of your accomplishments. The only problem comes when you confuse the recognition with the actual accomplishment.

 

[ballen0351]

And why wouldn't somebody who works hard to develop high skill pursue high rank? Provided that they train in a system that uses rank, I would think they want to see the results of their skill and hard work which comes in the form of rank, at least if they're training under a sensei that I would train under (somebody who makes their students earn their ranks instead of handing them out or selling them). For such a person to not pursue rank, it would be like a boyscout who works hard to live up to the scout oath and the scout law and to be a good scout but who doesn't pursue rank in boyscouts. True, you can be a good scout and not have a high rank such as Eagle, but it makes sense that somebody who works hard to be a good scout would want to be an Eagle Scout, that would be the proper result of somebody being a good scout.

Well I train Judo because I want to learn Judo. My teacher asks me to test every class and every class I say no thank you my white belt fits fine and I have no desire to compete in comps so I don't need a high rank I just want higher skills

 

[Blindside]

And why wouldn't somebody who works hard to develop high skill pursue high rank? Provided that they train in a system that uses rank, I would think they want to see the results of their skill and hard work which comes in the form of rank, at least if they're training under a sensei that I would train under (somebody who makes their students earn their ranks instead of handing them out or selling them). For such a person to not pursue rank, it would be like a boyscout who works hard to live up to the scout oath and the scout law and to be a good scout but who doesn't pursue rank in boyscouts. True, you can be a good scout and not have a high rank such as Eagle, but it makes sense that somebody who works hard to be a good scout would want to be an Eagle Scout, that would be the proper result of somebody being a good scout.

Maybe they realize that rank does not equal skill? That most of the high rank out there is about organizational politics and administrative responsibility rather than what you can do on the floor/ring/street. Maybe because they just want to practice/compete in the art, but they don't want to teach.

I was an Eagle Scout, and we had a couple of guys who didn't care about the rank, they just wanted to go camping. They didn't get any fewer outdoor and survival skills than I, they just were lower ranked.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Why? Maybe because martial arts isn't the Boy Scouts!

Now my best advice to you is stop worrying about the whole belt thing and ...Mo gung kau, gung sau!

Martial arts is not the same thing as Boy Scouts but they do have some stuff in common. They both use systems of rank, or at least some of the martial arts uses systems of rank as does Boy Scouts. That being said, a black belt you could say is the martial arts equivalent of Eagle Scout in Boy Scouts.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Rank is just public recognition of your skill. There's nothing wrong with wanting or appreciating public recognition of your accomplishments. There's also nothing wrong with not caring about public recognition of your accomplishments. The only problem comes when you confuse the recognition with the actual accomplishment.

Not necessarily is rank just public recognition. Some people, such as myself don't see it as such. Rather I see rank more as personal recognition of skill. I have no desire to flaunt rank or to show everybody what rank I am. Instead, by achieving a certain rank I know that I've met my sensei's standards for that rank and thus have obtained a certain degree of skill under my sensei, the same way that if I were to be an Eagle Scout, I would know that I've met the BSA's standards for the rank of Eagle Scout and in doing so have gained a certain level of skill as a Scout.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Well I train Judo because I want to learn Judo. My teacher asks me to test every class and every class I say no thank you my white belt fits fine and I have no desire to compete in comps so I don't need a high rank I just want higher skills

You might want to consider testing for rank, aside from the reason of personal recognition in a lot of judo places you aren't taught certain stuff until you reach higher ranks. If your sensei says you're ready than you might want to progress with your training and what I mean by that is to progress with your rank and start learning some of the more advanced stuff that you're ready to learn. I've done Judo and where I did it, you learned some throws as a white belt, some of the other throws you wouldn't learn until you were a green belt or higher, and Atemi Waza, the striking techniques in Judo, you usually wouldn't start learning until you were a first degree black belt. So that is another reason to advance in rank and something you might want to consider, you're taught more when you go up in rank.

 

[ballen0351]

You might want to consider testing for rank, aside from the reason of personal recognition in a lot of judo places you aren't taught certain stuff until you reach higher ranks. If your sensei says you're ready than you might want to progress with your training and what I mean by that is to progress with your rank and start learning some of the more advanced stuff that you're ready to learn. I've done Judo and where I did it, you learned some throws as a white belt, some of the other throws you wouldn't learn until you were a green belt or higher, and Atemi Waza, the striking techniques in Judo, you usually wouldn't start learning until you were a first degree black belt. So that is another reason to advance in rank and something you might want to consider, you're taught more when you go up in rank.

Naa Im good. I train with the advance class My Sensei understands I just dont care about the belts so he doesnt care really. He has been asking me to test for over a year now its just a joke between us. He teaches me based on my skills not the color a belt

 

[PhotonGuy]

Maybe they realize that rank does not equal skill? That most of the high rank out there is about organizational politics and administrative responsibility rather than what you can do on the floor/ring/street. Maybe because they just want to practice/compete in the art, but they don't want to teach.

I was an Eagle Scout, and we had a couple of guys who didn't care about the rank, they just wanted to go camping. They didn't get any fewer outdoor and survival skills than I, they just were lower ranked.

Rank does not equal skill but rank should be the result of skill.

As for you becoming an Eagle Scout, you obviously do care about rank in some things otherwise you wouldn'tve worked hard to get to that level. And while the Boy Scouts handbook does point out quite clearly what you need to do for each rank, you nevertheless did sometimes talk to your scoutmaster about what you needed to do to get to the next rank if you were unclear. As a matter of fact, you would've had to talk to your scoutmaster to get your Eagle badge since one of the requirements is a community service project in which case you do need to talk to your scoutmaster so that he will set you up with something.

As for your friends in Boy Scouts who didn't care about rank, did they work on merit badges? If they learned outdoor and survival skills, one of the best ways to learn such stuff in Boy Scouts is to work on appropriate merit badges, and if you learn it well enough you get the merit badge, of course, in Boy Scouts you do have to do more than earn merit badges to advance in rank.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You might want to consider testing for rank, aside from the reason of personal recognition in a lot of judo places you aren't taught certain stuff until you reach higher ranks. If your sensei says you're ready than you might want to progress with your training and what I mean by that is to progress with your rank and start learning some of the more advanced stuff that you're ready to learn. I've done Judo and where I did it, you learned some throws as a white belt, some of the other throws you wouldn't learn until you were a green belt or higher, and Atemi Waza, the striking techniques in Judo, you usually wouldn't start learning until you were a first degree black belt. So that is another reason to advance in rank and something you might want to consider, you're taught more when you go up in rank.

If your instructor trains based on your belt, get another instructor.
Maybe that's why you're belt focused instead of skill focused?


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The fact of the matter is that those three men with white belts had achieved the rank of 5th Dan even if they didn't openly show it by wearing the proper colored belts. What's important is obtaining the rank, not obtaining some external physical object that merely symbolizes the rank be it a belt or a badge or whatever. Those men had reached the rank of 5th Dan and knew it, that's whats important.

But according to your OP, these three masters would be 'bumps on a log'. I disagree. They were mature enough in their training to know they don't need to wear something to prove something. Their training spoke for itself.