To those who don't care about belt rank

[wingchun100]

Or if you have various classes that people sometimes mix and match. At my school, you're mostly separated into kid or adult classes by belt rank (adult beginner+intermediate or advanced, vs. kids beginner, intermediate, and then one class per belt...he's got about 8x the kids as adults), but then there's family classes and all kid or all adult classes for makeup, plus a few others. When you get into a family class or all kid/adult class and you don't know the other people...yeah, it helps.

All you can hope for by that point is that maybe you have a couple "senior students" who could help you run things.

 

[skribs]

I'm a student, not an instructor, so I don't have to worry

That was adding on to what watergal said about having 50-60 students and then having trouble keeping track of who's advanced so far. That's what belt systems do for instructors: help you remember where in the curriculum each student is. (It also gives them a disciplinary option of making you wear white belt for the day if you act arrogant or unsportsmanlike). In a small class it might be easy to keep track, but with a large group that's in-and-out of various classes, you're going to probably want some sort of aide to help you keep track.

 

[Buka]

I'm a student, not an instructor, so I don't have to worry

That was adding on to what watergal said about having 50-60 students and then having trouble keeping track of who's advanced so far. That's what belt systems do for instructors: help you remember where in the curriculum each student is. (It also gives them a disciplinary option of making you wear white belt for the day if you act arrogant or unsportsmanlike). In a small class it might be easy to keep track, but with a large group that's in-and-out of various classes, you're going to probably want some sort of aide to help you keep track.

As an instructor - you know every one of your students above white belt. It doesn't matter if there's a hundred or more, you know them, their rank, their strengths and weaknesses and what they need to progress. You might forget some things years after they quit, but not much, really.

As the years go by it gets to the point where you know a whole lot after a student's been training for just a couple months. I suppose it's just like anything else where you deal with a lot of people.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think you're going to hit that as soon as you get more than maybe 50 or 60 students, especially if you have more than a few belts and not everyone is progressing at the same pace. It can get hard to remember, oh, is Student X still a belt ahead of Student Y, or did Y catch up or even pass X?

We currently have about 70 students. No problem keeping track of where people are without looking at their belts.


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[skribs]

What about when you start getting into the 200+ student range?

 

[Dirty Dog]

What about when you start getting into the 200+ student range?

They'd still be broken down in class as beginners, intermediate, or advanced.
So next you'll ask about when there's 200 in the intermediate class. It won't matter then, either, since they're close enough in skill. Pick any two mid-level students. That's close enough. You're not seriously about to suggest that the world will end if a 3rd geup is matched with a 7th, are you?

Rank and belts serve a purpose, but they're just not vital. I'd have no problem teaching in a program that didn't use them.


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[skribs]

Breaking it down into beginner/intermediate/advanced isn't exactly a belt system, but is still a ranking system. I thought the spirit of this thread was ranking vs. non-ranking.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Breaking it down into beginner/intermediate/advanced isn't exactly a belt system, but is still a ranking system. I thought the spirit of this thread was ranking vs. non-ranking.

I haven't noticed anybody actually taking the position that it's even POSSIBLE to have "no rank". There will always be those who are students, those who are teachers, and the much much larger group of those who are both.

However, my comments have ONLY been directed at the position that a ranking system is somehow necessary in order to know what student is at which point in their training or for pairing students for sparring.
It's not.
I'm sorry if it wasn't clear from the start exactly what I was addressing. I sort of thought it would be clear to anybody reading the thread.


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[Kung Fu Wang]

In ACSCA (American Combat Shuai Chiso Assoc.),

the

- 1st degree black belt will need to prove his MA knowledge.
- 2nd degree black belt will need to prove his tournament winning record (MA ability).
- 3rd degree black belt will need to prove his teacher ability (teacher certificate).

Any rank higher than that will need to prove his contribution to the MA such as:

- give public demonstration to promote MA,
- offer workshops,
- tournaments sponsor,
- publish books/DVDs,
- train team to compete in national level or international level tournaments,
- ...

 

[Kong Soo Do]

There are some people who don't care about belt ranks in the martial arts.

That's correct. And there are many arts that don't use the system at all. It isn't necessary for serious training.

The way I see it, that's their choice.

Or the way their system works or the way they were taught.

If somebody doesn't care about rank and achievement fine,...

Rank and achievement aren't necessarily the same thing. One can achieve their desired goal regardless if a belt system is used, or if it is used what rank is earned.

its your choice to be a bump on a log and I respect that, but that's not me.

Doesn't sound like you respect it at all. That's a pretty sweeping, and inaccurate statement. George Matteson has told the story of training in Okinawa many decades ago with three men wearing white belts at the home Dojo. They obviously weren't white belts and he later learned that they were actually 5th Dans. When asked why they were wearing white belts they replied that the just never got around to getting a black one and didn't think it would affect their karate one way or the other. That is the correct view of rank imnsho.

I like to do stuff in life. I like to earn stuff through hard work and I like to achieve stuff through hard work.

So do many people. Some just realize that the color of the cloth...or the actual wearing of a piece of cloth has nothing to do with personal achievement, hard work or reaching a goal.

 

[MJS]

So you're the person I mentioned that cares about progressing in your schools system, just not about wearing a certain color on your waist. That's fine.

But in my experience, someone like you does not go around talking all the time about how they don't care about the belt system and getting belts. About how a black belt is just a piece of cloth and doesn't mean anything. In my experience, that person is usually saying that either because they're not committed to actually learning the style, or as an excuse to explain why they've stopped training/testing/whatever.

We've got a red belt guy that's doing that right now, talking a lot about how he doesn't care about getting a black belt and is fine with just being a color belt forever. I know he feels self-conscious because he's older and not as flexible or athletic as a lot of the other students, and I'm pretty sure the source of this "I don't care about belts" is that he's scared that he'll look bad at his black belt test.

I'm sure my posts come across as not caring. I hold 2 Black Belts...a 4th in Kenpo, and a 1st in Modern Arnis. I'm a Yellow/green stripe in Kyokushin. I certainly respect my teachers, and no, I don't say to them that I don't care about the ranking system. I do say though, that I'm not one to chase rank. If/when the time comes, that my teacher feels I'm ready to advance, then so be it. For me, I'm more concerned with learning the art, and improving myself. That, IMHO, far out weighs the color of the belt, all day, any day. For my last belt test, when my teacher told me to start preparing, I'll admit that *I* didn't feel that I was ready, and even asked if he was sure that I was ready. Apparently I was, because I passed a long, exhausting test.

IMO, the belts a simply a visual indication of where you are currently, in the system. While it should be an indication of skill, unfortunately, in many cases, it is not. That is why I say what I say. People think they're all bad-*** when they get their BB, but yet watching them perform...well, frankly, they don't look too bad-***.

 

[drop bear]

I haven't noticed anybody actually taking the position that it's even POSSIBLE to have "no rank". There will always be those who are students, those who are teachers, and the much much larger group of those who are both.

However, my comments have ONLY been directed at the position that a ranking system is somehow necessary in order to know what student is at which point in their training or for pairing students for sparring.
It's not.
I'm sorry if it wasn't clear from the start exactly what I was addressing. I sort of thought it would be clear to anybody reading the thread.


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We don't have a big club but everybody just trains with everybody pretty much.

 

[tshadowchaser]

take any class and have the students leave their belts off and stand anywhere but where they normally would, then start the class. If some one watching the whole class can not tell who has knowledge and who dose not by the end of class then something is wrong. The belts do not have knowledge the students do.
Ranking is fine and dose denote the place anyone has within the school that gave it to them, but it has little to do with anything else. The same rank in the same system may not denote the same knowledge within different schools in that system.
A person who has rank in a system or a couple systems may study a different system and not care about getting ranked but is there simple for knowledge. The learning of new things or different applications of the same movement is what they seek. Knowledge of the history of a new system and how the techniques within that system differ from another system are the knowledge STUDENTS of the arts seek.
Rank is an ego trip not a necessary thing, other than teacher/ student and teachers /teacher

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Buka, I think a big part of that is the time per belt. In TKD, for example, it can range anywhere from 1 month to 4 months between belts, depending on your school. Some schools will basically just push belts onto you, others will actually require you meet testing requirements, so it may be longer, but in general 1-2 month average per belt can be expected. In BJJ, you're looking at years per belt even before black belt.

My TKD school, before black belt, goes White-Yellow-Purple-Orange-Green-Green (1 Stripe)-Blue-(Blue 1, Blue 2)-Red (Red 1, Red 2) - Black. We test every 2 months, although some people test every 4, and a lot of people slow down around blue or red. Let's just go with 12 belts and 2 mo/test for comparison, because I think that's common of TKD.

A new BJJ Blue belt has probably been doing this for a year. That means he is the equivalent of a blue belt under the TKD system mentioned above. However, while the blue belt has tested several times, the BJJ student only has earned one belt. Now let's look at purple belt, that's another 2 years in grade. By this time, the TKD practitioner (if they've kept up) is probably a 1st Dan - 2nd Gup. Assuming they've slowed down, they're probably High Blue or Red. After another year and a half, the BJJ student is brown, and the TKD guy is almost definitely a black belt, probably 2nd degree closing in on 3rd if they've kept pace. A BJJ black belt is probably the equivalent of a TKD 3rd degree in terms of experience.

So yes, in TKD, green vs. orange isn't much different. Blue 2 vs. red isn't much different. But, comparing green to white belt, or green 1/blue to red 1/red 2...yeah, there's a difference. Comparing a fresh black belt to someone approaching 3rd degree testing, there's a big difference. I think that's why you see such a difference in BJJ between belts compared with other arts. You get a new belt every few years instead of months.

I'll also agree with your assessment that grappling arts are less about physical ability and more about knowledge of the art and practice with the application.

In addition to the difference in time between belts (typically 2-3 years per belt in BJJ as opposed to 2-3 months per belt in TKD), there is also the fact that belt promotion in BJJ tends to rest heavily* on demonstrating technical grappling prowess on the mats day in and day out. It doesn't matter how long you've been training or how good you can look while demonstrating techniques - if you can't hang with most of the brown belts and dominate most of the purple belts, then you aren't getting promoted to brown belt.

*(Some allowance is made for size/age/etc. If you are a purple belt matched against a blue belt who is twice your size, you might be expected to only match him evenly rather than dominate him.)

 

[Buka]

Buka, I think a big part of that is the time per belt. In TKD, for example, it can range anywhere from 1 month to 4 months between belts, depending on your school. Some schools will basically just push belts onto you, others will actually require you meet testing requirements, so it may be longer, but in general 1-2 month average per belt can be expected. In BJJ, you're looking at years per belt even before black belt.

My TKD school, before black belt, goes White-Yellow-Purple-Orange-Green-Green (1 Stripe)-Blue-(Blue 1, Blue 2)-Red (Red 1, Red 2) - Black. We test every 2 months, although some people test every 4, and a lot of people slow down around blue or red. Let's just go with 12 belts and 2 mo/test for comparison, because I think that's common of TKD.

A new BJJ Blue belt has probably been doing this for a year. That means he is the equivalent of a blue belt under the TKD system mentioned above. However, while the blue belt has tested several times, the BJJ student only has earned one belt. Now let's look at purple belt, that's another 2 years in grade. By this time, the TKD practitioner (if they've kept up) is probably a 1st Dan - 2nd Gup. Assuming they've slowed down, they're probably High Blue or Red. After another year and a half, the BJJ student is brown, and the TKD guy is almost definitely a black belt, probably 2nd degree closing in on 3rd if they've kept pace. A BJJ black belt is probably the equivalent of a TKD 3rd degree in terms of experience.

So yes, in TKD, green vs. orange isn't much different. Blue 2 vs. red isn't much different. But, comparing green to white belt, or green 1/blue to red 1/red 2...yeah, there's a difference. Comparing a fresh black belt to someone approaching 3rd degree testing, there's a big difference. I think that's why you see such a difference in BJJ between belts compared with other arts. You get a new belt every few years instead of months.

I'll also agree with your assessment that grappling arts are less about physical ability and more about knowledge of the art and practice with the application.

I can hear ya, brother, I have a decade of crazed old school TKD in my background. (been a long time) And while every Art is different, TKD and BJJ are about as different as any two Arts can be. I agree with Tony (above) about the application on the mat. it seems that the training in Jits is more related to the application of technique to a resisting opponent than in the other arts I've experienced, and there have been a few. It seems to lead to a better real word understanding of technique and it's practical application. I have found, on the whole, that advanced Jits practitioners will understand the nuance of any technique, and be able to express that knowledge in words AND teaching, than we strikers do. (I can hear all my Karate guys screaming at me now) But, that's been my experience and that's all I can base my comments on.

I don't think this has anything to do with what's better, what's applicable in a fighting or anything else, it's just different. I used to teach basic grappling skills in my instructor's TKD dojo, and man, talk about changing hats. Often, I'd walk with the class outside, go around the building with them and come back in - just to shake up their mindset and get them to a different place.

 

[skribs]

I have found, on the whole, that advanced Jits practitioners will understand the nuance of any technique, and be able to express that knowledge in words AND teaching, than we strikers do.

I don't have any experience with BJJ (I have watched a couple seasons of TUF on Fox and some MMA highlights videos on youtube, does that count?), but having done TKD and a bit of HKD I understand what you're saying. With striking, you don't have to have the perfect technique to still do damage. It helps, but you can be imperfect and still hit pretty hard. With grappling, you need to grip the exact right spot in the exact right way or your leverage and pain compliance is gone. I think good grappling requires a lot more precision than good striking.

 

[Buka]

I don't have any experience with BJJ (I have watched a couple seasons of TUF on Fox and some MMA highlights videos on youtube, does that count?), but having done TKD and a bit of HKD I understand what you're saying. With striking, you don't have to have the perfect technique to still do damage. It helps, but you can be imperfect and still hit pretty hard. With grappling, you need to grip the exact right spot in the exact right way or your leverage and pain compliance is gone. I think good grappling requires a lot more precision than good striking.

I'm not sure if grappling requires more precision than striking. I never really thought about that before. I'll think on it some. (and probably still be wrong )

And, yes, Youtube and Fox count.

 

[skribs]

Well in that case I've been watching for almost a year now so I should be a blue belt! :boing1:
In all seriousness, BJJ looks like a lot of fun and I'd love to take it (actually have a few schools nearby that look pretty good), but I don't have the time or money to take it without detracting from my primary art

It probably depends some on the art, too. Doing Hapkido, for example, it's mostly about wrist locks. One little thing, such as how far around the hand you grip, what you do with your other hand, how you step when you throw, etc. all make a huge difference in whether or not the other person does what you want them to.

 

[ballen0351]

We have been known to wear different belt colors depending on the day. St Patty's day we all throw on Green belts, 4th of July Blue or white, Valentines day we sport red and reds not even in our system. If you remember your anniversary of when you started you wear your white belt that day. Half the time we don't wear belts at all. You know what rank you are and where you belong. You know if one groups working on something more advanced you find a group that's at your level. We are all adults its not the teachers job to tell you where you go its yours to remember your place. Plus classes are broken up by times and levels as well so you know when you show up and what time you leave so its not that hard to figure this stuff out.

 

[Dirty Dog]

We don't have a big club but everybody just trains with everybody pretty much.

Apparently, some people don't think that system works.
Personally, I don't care if I'm working with the newest student, or our Kwanjang. If I can't benefit from the time we spend training together, the problem is totally mine.


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