To those who don't care about belt rank

[WaterGal]

They'd still be broken down in class as beginners, intermediate, or advanced.

If they are. Not all schools do things that way.

We divide by age but not by belt rank, because otherwise we wouldn't have room in the schedule for our Hapkido & Kumdo classes, and because it makes the schedule a lot more flexible.

 

[Buka]

We have been known to wear different belt colors depending on the day. St Patty's day we all throw on Green belts, 4th of July Blue or white, Valentines day we sport red and reds not even in our system. If you remember your anniversary of when you started you wear your white belt that day. Half the time we don't wear belts at all. You know what rank you are and where you belong. You know if one groups working on something more advanced you find a group that's at your level. We are all adults its not the teachers job to tell you where you go its yours to remember your place. Plus classes are broken up by times and levels as well so you know when you show up and what time you leave so its not that hard to figure this stuff out.

Green belts on St Patty's day, white belt on anniversary etc. - that's one of the coolest things I ever heard. After a workout yesterday, my wife and I were hiking up a tough hill, it was hot and we were beat. She said, "tell me something to take my mind off my damn quad muscles". So I told her about your post. The look on her face - She said, "why didn't we think of that, why haven't I seen that before!" She never mentioned her quads again.

 

[ballen0351]

Green belts on St Patty's day, white belt on anniversary etc. - that's one of the coolest things I ever heard. After a workout yesterday, my wife and I were hiking up a tough hill, it was hot and we were beat. She said, "tell me something to take my mind off my damn quad muscles". So I told her about your post. The look on her face - She said, "why didn't we think of that, why haven't I seen that before!" She never mentioned her quads again.

Yeah it started as a joke 4 of us showed up with our green belts on st patty day thinking sensei would tell us to take them off. He walked out smiled walked back in his office came out with a green belt on. Took off from there. We talked about buying pink belts for breast cancer month then paying like a small donation to wear them as a fundraiser for cancer awareness that's in the works for this October

 

[drop bear]

Apparently, some people don't think that system works.
Personally, I don't care if I'm working with the newest student, or our Kwanjang. If I can't benefit from the time we spend training together, the problem is totally mine.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

I like it. It keeps the older guys honest and motivates the newer ones. It is good to do stuff where the other guy does not fit the pattern so much.

But we don't really have a rank progression of techniques though.

 

[MartialMellow]

A little article about Kung Fu belt ranks, which came about in the twentieth century: The Order of Belt Colors in Kung Fu | LIVESTRONG.COM

 

[PhotonGuy]

Why would you think of someone not concerned about rank as being a bump on a log or that they are care not about achievement?
I could not care less about Belt rank.
The color of one’s belt means nothing, NOTHING!!

That depends on who you get the belt rank under. If you train under a good hard sensei with good high standards you will not get a high belt rank if you haven't worked hard and achieved much. The high belt rank is a result of your progress, knowledge, ability, and hard work and that's what it symbolizes, at least that's how it is if you get it from a sensei who has high standards for high ranks and doesn't just hand out or sell belt ranks.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Yeah. In my experience, when someone in a style with a belt system says, "I don't care about getting belts", usually what they really mean is either that they don't value their school's curriciulum and just want to practice whatever stuff they want, or that they're scared to test and are saying that to save face. Sometimes, they do mean, "I care about progressing, just not about the belt color", but that's not usually said in the same kind of whining way.

Yes, and if a student is in a style with a ranking system and doesn't care about ranks that student will probably not progress much since usually in such styles and dojos you don't learn certain stuff until after you get to certain ranks.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Using a belt system isn't being materialistic or silly.

The bottom line is that in today's society, we like to see tangible progress as we undergo the training, and having a belt system in place helps answer some of those questions, which can keep people's interest going.

The belt system itself isn't going to change a system. If it's used properly, it simply helps keep things standardized, and provides a bit of incentive to your students.

Exactly. Just like scout rank in Boyscouts. Lots of people on Boyscouts strive to become Eagle Scouts, the highest rank in scouting. Is there anything wrong with wanting to get As in school? Is there anything wrong with wanting to get an Eagle Badge in Boyscouts? If there isn't, than there isn't anything wrong with wanting to get a black belt in a martial art, typically the highest belt color in arts that use a belt ranking system.

 

[PhotonGuy]

If someone told me my rank was a gift I'd be a bit insulted. I worked hard to get where I am. I realize that the skills are what really matter, but the fact is the belt is the shiny trinket that says "you have acquired X skills and proved it."

I would be insulted and offended too. I would never train under a sensei who just hands out ranks. If Im going to get a black belt, I want to get it under a sensei who has hard high standards and doesn't just hand out ranks.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Doesn't sound like you respect it at all. That's a pretty sweeping, and inaccurate statement. George Matteson has told the story of training in Okinawa many decades ago with three men wearing white belts at the home Dojo. They obviously weren't white belts and he later learned that they were actually 5th Dans. When asked why they were wearing white belts they replied that the just never got around to getting a black one and didn't think it would affect their karate one way or the other. That is the correct view of rank imnsho.

The fact of the matter is that those three men with white belts had achieved the rank of 5th Dan even if they didn't openly show it by wearing the proper colored belts. What's important is obtaining the rank, not obtaining some external physical object that merely symbolizes the rank be it a belt or a badge or whatever. Those men had reached the rank of 5th Dan and knew it, that's whats important.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Not caring is being a bump on a log? LOL, ok...consider me a bump then! As I've said a thousand times, and probably a thousand more: I do care about rank. It's not a bad thing. However, I don't place it as high on the pedestal as others do. Some people are all about the rank, as if that alone, is the determining factor of skill in the arts. I don't know about you, but in all of the years that I've been training, I've seen some people who certainly didn't deserve the rank they had tied around their waist!! People that are Green, Brown and even Black belts, and their stances suck, their kata sucks, their punches and kicks suck! When I see that, to me, that doesn't indicate hard work. And if it does indicate hard work, then clearly that teacher views hard work very differently.

Sorry, but there are much more important things to worry about, than that new belt or stripe. Now, don't mistake that for me not liking when I get a new belt after a test. Difference is, I'm not in any rush. If it takes me 3 months or 3 years to advance to my next belt, then so be it. I don't want anything handed to me. I want to bust my ***, and put in the hard work. Especially when you're going for a higher rank.

Those people with high belt ranks that had very terrible stances, katas, punches and kicks, and I've seen people like that too although not at my dojo, would've trained under a sensei who doesn't have high standards for rank and who just hands belts out, I would never train under such a sensei.

And as far as it taking three months or three years or whatever to go up a belt rank, if you do bust your *** and work hard enough, than you should be able to go up a rank sooner than if you didn't bust your *** and work as hard. If you go up a belt rank in a relatively short time it doesn't necessarily mean you were handed the rank, it could mean that you worked harder and thus got there quicker.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yes, and if a student is in a style with a ranking system and doesn't care about ranks that student will probably not progress much since usually in such styles and dojos you don't learn certain stuff until after you get to certain ranks.

Incorrect, in my experience. Those who are focused on rank tend to progress slower than those who focus on technique.

The fact of the matter is that those three men with white belts had achieved the rank of 5th Dan even if they didn't openly show it by wearing the proper colored belts. What's important is obtaining the rank, not obtaining some external physical object that merely symbolizes the rank be it a belt or a badge or whatever. Those men had reached the rank of 5th Dan and knew it, that's whats important.

Completely disagree. What's important is obtaining skill.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yes, and if a student is in a style with a ranking system and doesn't care about ranks that student will probably not progress much since usually in such styles and dojos you don't learn certain stuff until after you get to certain ranks.

Yeah, I've never cared for the teaching business model which goes "you don't get to learn anything new until you get promoted so get ready to fork over those testing fees." Fortunately, almost none of the schools where I have trained follow that philosophy. BJJ has belts, but at my gym blue belts are welcome to train with black belts and learn as much as they can regardless of rank.

 

[MJS]

Those people with high belt ranks that had very terrible stances, katas, punches and kicks, and I've seen people like that too although not at my dojo, would've trained under a sensei who doesn't have high standards for rank and who just hands belts out, I would never train under such a sensei.

Agreed.

And as far as it taking three months or three years or whatever to go up a belt rank, if you do bust your *** and work hard enough, than you should be able to go up a rank sooner than if you didn't bust your *** and work as hard. If you go up a belt rank in a relatively short time it doesn't necessarily mean you were handed the rank, it could mean that you worked harder and thus got there quicker.

I see your point, however, there's more to it than that. I'm always amazed at why people put such a huge focus on the belt, as if getting to black in 9 yrs, or 9 mos is the most important thing in the world. Of course, as you said above, regarding the teacher with high standards...well, if they had high standards, they wouldn't promote a student every month.

Isn't it funny...if we look at an art like BJJ, where it takes upwards of 10yrs to get Black. And then people wonder why someone with a low rank in BJJ, usually mops the floor with a higher ranked person in another art. It's all about quality, not quantity.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Incorrect, in my experience. Those who are focused on rank tend to progress slower than those who focus on technique.

Somebody who is focused on rank would be focused on technique because you need good technique to go up in rank, at least if you've got a good sensei you will need that. It makes sense that a student who wants to go up in rank would be working on what they need to go up in rank.

Completely disagree. What's important is obtaining skill.

And by going up in rank, that shows that you've obtained skill since as I said before, skill is required for rank. When you obtain rank, that means you've obtained skill and all the other necessary requirements and have accomplished something. The same way that obtaining academic knowledge will get you an A. There's nothing wrong with getting As is there?

 

[PhotonGuy]

Agreed.



I see your point, however, there's more to it than that. I'm always amazed at why people put such a huge focus on the belt, as if getting to black in 9 yrs, or 9 mos is the most important thing in the world. Of course, as you said above, regarding the teacher with high standards...well, if they had high standards, they wouldn't promote a student every month.

Isn't it funny...if we look at an art like BJJ, where it takes upwards of 10yrs to get Black. And then people wonder why someone with a low rank in BJJ, usually mops the floor with a higher ranked person in another art. It's all about quality, not quantity.

As for a teacher with high standards not promoting a student every month, lets say the student is really exceptional and is able to meet the sensei's standards every month as high as they might be? Im talking hypothetical as a student that good would have to be superhuman, such as if Clark Kent signed up for lessons, but if such a student does exist and is able to meet the really high standards of a really hard teacher, than why shouldn't the teacher promote?

As for it taking 10yrs to get a black belt in BJJ, well, that would depend on the school as many people might market that they teach BJJ and might have different standards for promotion just like in all arts, but at any school that can call their art Gracie JiuJitsu not BJJ I would expect it to take 10 years or more to get a black belt. Most schools have to call it BJJ and not Gracie JiuJitsu because the Gracies have trademarked the name but the Gracies have given some dojos permission to use their name and a sensei who teaches at such a dojo was no doubt taught by the Gracies themselves or has some connection with them and therefore you can expect it to be really hard. The Gracies are so successful in the martial arts not because of their style but because they work hard. And black belt is not then end of learning in the Gracie system or in any other system, its just the beginning. Getting a black belt means you've reached the base of the mountain and can now start the climb.

 

[geezer]

....Getting a black belt means you've reached the base of the mountain and can now start the climb.

Very Philosophical, but I call BS.

I hear this quoted so often ...and maybe it's true in some systems. But a black belt in BJJ is not a beginner. And in the stuff I train it's not true either. First off, I should say that the systems I train are not Japanese rooted systems so we don't use "belts". But we do have ranks. And when you have achieved "Primary Level" or "First Instructor Grade" -- or what we consider to be "Black Belt" equivalent, no-way are you a beginner. You are a journeyman at the craft with a very solid foundation. Or to put it another way, you have your bachelors degree. Sure there is a great deal more to be learned, just as a student can pursue a masters or doctoral degree, not to mention the wisdom that comes later from many years experience in the field. Still you are way more than a beginner.

Besides, two guys I've trained under in one of these arts never even earned a "black belt" in any art, and both were definitely masters at what they did. The majority of us who trained under them were either black belts in other systems or else successful competitors. But unlike some folks, these guys could walk the walk and didn't obsess over rank.

Now I have nothing against ranking systems, They are a great way to insure a basic standard of quality and also help to motivate students. But rank really isn't that important. Don't you think that this thread has gone on long enough?

 

[MJS]

As for a teacher with high standards not promoting a student every month, lets say the student is really exceptional and is able to meet the sensei's standards every month as high as they might be? Im talking hypothetical as a student that good would have to be superhuman, such as if Clark Kent signed up for lessons, but if such a student does exist and is able to meet the really high standards of a really hard teacher, than why shouldn't the teacher promote?

Because there are such things as time in grade. My current teacher is traditional, old school and has high standards. The idea of someone being able to meet those standards, test every month and get a BB in a years time, is a ****ing joke! If you want to train under a teacher like that, go ahead, but I never would, nor would I promote a student monthly.

As for it taking 10yrs to get a black belt in BJJ, well, that would depend on the school as many people might market that they teach BJJ and might have different standards for promotion just like in all arts, but at any school that can call their art Gracie JiuJitsu not BJJ I would expect it to take 10 years or more to get a black belt. Most schools have to call it BJJ and not Gracie JiuJitsu because the Gracies have trademarked the name but the Gracies have given some dojos permission to use their name and a sensei who teaches at such a dojo was no doubt taught by the Gracies themselves or has some connection with them and therefore you can expect it to be really hard. The Gracies are so successful in the martial arts not because of their style but because they work hard. And black belt is not then end of learning in the Gracie system or in any other system, its just the beginning. Getting a black belt means you've reached the base of the mountain and can now start the climb.

The Gracie family trademarked the name because it's a family name. They're not the only ones who do BJJ. I think you also missed my point. I'm saying that on average, it's a good 10yrs for a BB in BJJ. So, let me ask you...why do you say that you'd expect it to take 10yrs there, but not in another art? You don't see the belt hungry whores in a BJJ school. I've been at a few different places that taught BJJ. Everyone that I've seen, is more concerned with training and learning the art and getting better. When the time comes to promote, then it happens.

As for the last part...getting a BB means you've reached the base.... Well, I too, will call BS on that, along with geezer. People, IMHO, are WAY too fixated with the belt. The belt isn't going to fight for you. I've been training for 20+yrs. I've seen under belts with more skill than some BB's that I've seen over the years.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Don't you think that this thread has gone on long enough?

No. A thread should go on as long as it goes on. As long as people respond. If you think a thread has gone on too long than you can drop out of it, you've got the freedom to do so.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Because there are such things as time in grade. My current teacher is traditional, old school and has high standards. The idea of someone being able to meet those standards, test every month and get a BB in a years time, is a ****ing joke! If you want to train under a teacher like that, go ahead, but I never would, nor would I promote a student monthly.

Obviously it is a joke as I was speaking hypothetically which I said so in my earlier post. What I meant was if there was a superhuman student who could meet such high standards every month why not promote them every month? I said it before and I will say it again, such a student would never exist but Im talking about a hypothetical situation. You mention time in grade. Lets forget about the concept of once a month promotion for now and just talk getting to the next grade and the time it takes to get there. To go up a belt requires a certain degree of physical and mental development, skill, knowledge, and ability. To acquire the necessary knowledge and abilities to go up a rank takes time, you're not going to acquire them instantaneously. The time it takes to acquire the knowledge and abilities perhaps should be the, "time in grade," no matter how short or long it takes the student to acquire those necessary attributes. Just something to consider. It takes time to become of the proper material for a belt promotion, and that's where time and patience comes into play with rank promotion.

The Gracie family trademarked the name because it's a family name. They're not the only ones who do BJJ. I think you also missed my point. I'm saying that on average, it's a good 10yrs for a BB in BJJ. So, let me ask you...why do you say that you'd expect it to take 10yrs there, but not in another art? You don't see the belt hungry whores in a BJJ school. I've been at a few different places that taught BJJ. Everyone that I've seen, is more concerned with training and learning the art and getting better. When the time comes to promote, then it happens.

As for the last part...getting a BB means you've reached the base.... Well, I too, will call BS on that, along with geezer. People, IMHO, are WAY too fixated with the belt. The belt isn't going to fight for you. I've been training for 20+yrs. I've seen under belts with more skill than some BB's that I've seen over the years.

The Gracies obviously aren't the only ones who to BJJ but they're the only ones who do, "Gracie JiuJitsu," them and others who've trained under them or who've trained under those who the Gracies have given permission to use their name. But as you said, that's beside the point. As for it taking 10 yrs to get a black belt in BJJ but not in other arts, that would depend on whose teaching it, not on the art. You have senseis who just hand out belts and then you have senseis who make their students work hard to earn the belts. I did once take classes at a BJJ school but at that particular school they used the name Gracie, they called it Gracie JiuJitsu because they had been given permission by the Gracies to do so. Anybody who the Gracies let use their name I would expect very high standards for promotion and I wouldn't be surprised for it to take a good 10 years for somebody to get a black belt there. I do not have any experience with places that taught BJJ and didn't use the Gracie name in their art so I can't say anything about how their promotions work to any degree of accuracy.

Now, you call it BS about how getting a black belt means you've reached the base. The fact of the matter is its all relative and I will state the obvious that when getting a black belt, if that means you're an expert or a serious beginner or even, for that matter, a raw beginner who was handed a black belt and is an embarrassment to ones self it depends who you got it from. As you said, you've seen lower belts with more skill than some black belts. That just goes to show how standards vary from place to place as to what a black belt is. Some places have low standards for black belt and I would not want to get a black belt at such a place.

As people have said on this thread, its not about rank its about skill and ability. I would have to say its not about rank, its about who you get the rank from and if you get a high rank from a good sensei than you will have good skill and ability, otherwise you wouldn't get it.