To those who don't care about belt rank

[oaktree]

I have practice a couple of arts some such as Baguazhang for about 9 years I have no official rank I never asked my teacher never tested me and I don't think either of us
really care either way. One of my teachers has been doing one art for almost 15 years he does not have rank he says what his teacher has given him is more than enough.
I think of rank as a gift from my teachers if they give it to me but I am more interested in just training, listening to their stories and teachings them having a belt around my waist.

 

[skribs]

I think of rank as a gift from my teachers if they give it to me but I am more interested in just training, listening to their stories and teachings them having a belt around my waist.

If someone told me my rank was a gift I'd be a bit insulted. I worked hard to get where I am. I realize that the skills are what really matter, but the fact is the belt is the shiny trinket that says "you have acquired X skills and proved it."

 

[Mark Lynn]

There are some people who don't care about belt ranks in the martial arts.

True the whole belt thing, especially below black belt ranks, isn't that old only around 130 years old. However in other martial cultures like the Philippines there was no belts nor titles given by a governing body.

The way I see it, that's their choice. If somebody doesn't care about rank and achievement fine, its your choice to be a bump on a log and I respect that, but that's not me. I like to do stuff in life.

Not everyone who doesn't care about rank and achievement are bumps on a log. And I'm sure that people who don't care about rank like stuff in life and living life to it's fullest just like you do.

I like to earn stuff through hard work and I like to achieve stuff through hard work.

In the Filipino martial arts adapting the whole belt as rank thing is still relatively new probably in the last 50-60 years as the FMAs have started to adapt to the Japanese belt ranks (and other training methodology) to reach out and grow the arts word wide. However the old training methods of hitting each other with the sticks or blades instead of hitting the rattan sticks together (like we do today) was very painful and hard work. Much like the modern MMA gym today were the fighters are ranked by skill and fights fought, in the old days in the FMAs you rose up in the gym by being ranked as a fighter not by what belt you wore.

 

[Mark Lynn]

If someone told me my rank was a gift I'd be a bit insulted. I worked hard to get where I am. I realize that the skills are what really matter, but the fact is the belt is the shiny trinket that says "you have acquired X skills and proved it."

I think the poster was referring to rank being a gift as something that was bestowed on a person but not expected nor required. In that the giver of rank was acknowledging the person work and training and bestowing or giving them that rank. No that the person was giving out rank as a gift that had no meaning because there was no effort behind it.

For instance I had an aikijutsu teacher who told me that past a certain black belt rank the instructor would one day come up to you and present you with your new rank. In a sense it was a "gift" in that it wasn't something he was paying for, it wasn't something that because he had this amount of time in the school he was obligated to be raised to the next rank etc. etc. It was his instructor's acknowledgement of his skill level and it was time for him to be promoted. At my last promotion my sensei promoted me along with others to our next dan rank, again I consider it a "gift" because he wasn't required to promote me, I hadn't paid for the rank, it was totally up to him to acknowledge my skill or contribution in the martial arts (or lack thereof) and I had no input or say so about it period.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Belts are very important for sparring and competition.

I have to totally disagree with you here.

Belt have nothing to do with sparring; just because a lower belt beats a more senior belt in sparring, under sparring rules, doesn't mean diddley squat. The one person had a better match than the other, big deal.

I agree belt ranks in competition are important but only to set up the divisions, likewise so is gender, age, weight etc. etc.

But what rank is important for is to help set out responsibilities in the dojo. In that lower ranks shouldn't have to take on the teaching responsibilities of the more senior instructors. For instance the younger/newer (in years at the dojo) 3rd or 4th dans shouldn't have to take on the teaching duties of the 30+ year dojo veteran who just never wanted to advance beyond shodan.

The 30+ year shodan probably has a lot to offer the school in experience, but has found an easy way to hang out and hide out in the background.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

I have practice a couple of arts some such as Baguazhang for about 9 years I have no official rank I never asked my teacher never tested me and I don't think either of us
really care either way. One of my teachers has been doing one art for almost 15 years he does not have rank he says what his teacher has given him is more than enough.
I think of rank as a gift from my teachers if they give it to me but I am more interested in just training, listening to their stories and teachings them having a belt around my waist.

Well said



Strive To Be A Martial Artist & Not A Jock Artist.

 

[Steve]

I have to totally disagree with you here.

Belt have nothing to do with sparring; just because a lower belt beats a more senior belt in sparring, under sparring rules, doesn't mean diddley squat. The one person had a better match than the other, big deal.

I agree belt ranks in competition are important but only to set up the divisions, likewise so is gender, age, weight etc. etc.

But what rank is important for is to help set out responsibilities in the dojo. In that lower ranks shouldn't have to take on the teaching responsibilities of the more senior instructors. For instance the younger/newer (in years at the dojo) 3rd or 4th dans shouldn't have to take on the teaching duties of the 30+ year dojo veteran who just never wanted to advance beyond shodan.

The 30+ year shodan probably has a lot to offer the school in experience, but has found an easy way to hang out and hide out in the background.

Belts exist because Kano needed an easy way to manage randori.


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[skribs]

I think the notion of belts being good for sparring is it gives you an idea of who to match up with who. While it is good to spar with someone higher than you, it's also good to spar against someone of comparable skill to apply what you learned against the higher belt, and a belt system is a good way to show experience. Plus, the higher belts won't get better if they only ever spar the lower belts.

 

[Grenadier]

Using a belt system isn't being materialistic or silly.

The bottom line is that in today's society, we like to see tangible progress as we undergo the training, and having a belt system in place helps answer some of those questions, which can keep people's interest going.

The belt system itself isn't going to change a system. If it's used properly, it simply helps keep things standardized, and provides a bit of incentive to your students.

 

[Buka]

I've been in a lot of Martial Arts schools. Friends own them, associates own them, competitors own them, I've run a few for a lot of years and I have been a student for what seems like ever. I've noticed something consistently in the belt rank system of Gracie ju-jitsu schools as compared to other schools, my own included.

In Gracie schools there is white, blue, purple, brown and black. I find a greater discrepancy in knowledge and abilty with each rank in Gracie compared to anything else I've experienced, or seen, in Martial Arts. In rolling (sparring) blacks beat browns, browns beat purples, purples beat blues and blues beat whites. I know, I know, we can all say that about our schools, but nowhere even close as to how it is in Ju-jitsu. Yes, you will occasionally see a seasoned blue belt tap a new purple belt (and on down the line) but don't bet on a seasoned brown belt losing to a blue belt in a roll. Ain't gonna' happen. Or a really, really good purple belt besting a black belt, even a new one. There are always exceptions, of course, but those exceptions are few and far.
To me, it really is something that stands out noticeably.

In Karate, while the above still applies on certain levels, there will be a lot of occasions where a lower belt, because of off the chart athleticism and, perhaps, a physical and mental toughness from life experience, will best students of higher rank. I've never seen that in jits. Not even a sniff of it.

I also find that the knowledge of their art, their technique and their history is more complete than in other schools I've been in - or taught in. If I meet someone that is a student of the arts and learn they're a brown belt in whatever - I really have no idea of their ability and knowledge, how long they've trained or how well versed they might be in sparring.(not that I care, just making a point) In that same context - if I learn someone is a brown in Gracie I know exactly what's up. Always.

Please keep in mind that I am a proud karate man. It's just an observation.

 

[skribs]

Buka, I think a big part of that is the time per belt. In TKD, for example, it can range anywhere from 1 month to 4 months between belts, depending on your school. Some schools will basically just push belts onto you, others will actually require you meet testing requirements, so it may be longer, but in general 1-2 month average per belt can be expected. In BJJ, you're looking at years per belt even before black belt.

My TKD school, before black belt, goes White-Yellow-Purple-Orange-Green-Green (1 Stripe)-Blue-(Blue 1, Blue 2)-Red (Red 1, Red 2) - Black. We test every 2 months, although some people test every 4, and a lot of people slow down around blue or red. Let's just go with 12 belts and 2 mo/test for comparison, because I think that's common of TKD.

A new BJJ Blue belt has probably been doing this for a year. That means he is the equivalent of a blue belt under the TKD system mentioned above. However, while the blue belt has tested several times, the BJJ student only has earned one belt. Now let's look at purple belt, that's another 2 years in grade. By this time, the TKD practitioner (if they've kept up) is probably a 1st Dan - 2nd Gup. Assuming they've slowed down, they're probably High Blue or Red. After another year and a half, the BJJ student is brown, and the TKD guy is almost definitely a black belt, probably 2nd degree closing in on 3rd if they've kept pace. A BJJ black belt is probably the equivalent of a TKD 3rd degree in terms of experience.

So yes, in TKD, green vs. orange isn't much different. Blue 2 vs. red isn't much different. But, comparing green to white belt, or green 1/blue to red 1/red 2...yeah, there's a difference. Comparing a fresh black belt to someone approaching 3rd degree testing, there's a big difference. I think that's why you see such a difference in BJJ between belts compared with other arts. You get a new belt every few years instead of months.

I'll also agree with your assessment that grappling arts are less about physical ability and more about knowledge of the art and practice with the application.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think the notion of belts being good for sparring is it gives you an idea of who to match up with who. While it is good to spar with someone higher than you, it's also good to spar against someone of comparable skill to apply what you learned against the higher belt, and a belt system is a good way to show experience. Plus, the higher belts won't get better if they only ever spar the lower belts.

On the other hand, when was the last time you were in a school that was so big as to require belts to know who is farther along in their training?


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[Dirty Dog]

Buka, I think a big part of that is the time per belt. In TKD, for example, it can range anywhere from 1 month to 4 months between belts, depending on your school. Some schools will basically just push belts onto you, others will actually require you meet testing requirements, so it may be longer, but in general 1-2 month average per belt can be expected. In BJJ, you're looking at years per belt even before black belt.

My TKD school, before black belt, goes White-Yellow-Purple-Orange-Green-Green (1 Stripe)-Blue-(Blue 1, Blue 2)-Red (Red 1, Red 2) - Black. We test every 2 months, although some people test every 4, and a lot of people slow down around blue or red. Let's just go with 12 belts and 2 mo/test for comparison, because I think that's common of TKD.

A new BJJ Blue belt has probably been doing this for a year. That means he is the equivalent of a blue belt under the TKD system mentioned above. However, while the blue belt has tested several times, the BJJ student only has earned one belt. Now let's look at purple belt, that's another 2 years in grade. By this time, the TKD practitioner (if they've kept up) is probably a 1st Dan - 2nd Gup. Assuming they've slowed down, they're probably High Blue or Red. After another year and a half, the BJJ student is brown, and the TKD guy is almost definitely a black belt, probably 2nd degree closing in on 3rd if they've kept pace. A BJJ black belt is probably the equivalent of a TKD 3rd degree in terms of experience.

So yes, in TKD, green vs. orange isn't much different. Blue 2 vs. red isn't much different. But, comparing green to white belt, or green 1/blue to red 1/red 2...yeah, there's a difference. Comparing a fresh black belt to someone approaching 3rd degree testing, there's a big difference. I think that's why you see such a difference in BJJ between belts compared with other arts. You get a new belt every few years instead of months.

I'll also agree with your assessment that grappling arts are less about physical ability and more about knowledge of the art and practice with the application.

Or longer. Our students might only be white belts or yellow belts for a couple months, but since our average to 1st Dan is 6-8 years, you can figure on longer than 4 months. By 3rd geup, our students are probably looking at about a year between promotions.



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[skribs]

Like I said, it depends on the school and it depends on the person. I think typical times for TKD to get black belt are either 2 years (although a lot of people say these are too fast) or 3-5 years (making a black belt comparable to a bachelor's degree in terms of experience). Your school might be a little slow in terms of belts, but that of course just most likely means your 1st Dan BBs are better than those from other schools on average.

My point is that with only 5 belts, vs. several from TKD, you are going to see a bigger variance from one belt to the next. There are 8 colors in my school, not including stripes, including White and Black. There are 9 colors in other schools that also add brown to the mix. If these 8 or 9 colors take the same amount of time as 4 or 5 colors of BJJ, then obviously there will be a bigger skill gap between belts in BJJ.

 

[MJS]

There are some people who don't care about belt ranks in the martial arts. The way I see it, that's their choice. If somebody doesn't care about rank and achievement fine, its your choice to be a bump on a log and I respect that, but that's not me. I like to do stuff in life. I like to earn stuff through hard work and I like to achieve stuff through hard work.

Not caring is being a bump on a log? LOL, ok...consider me a bump then! As I've said a thousand times, and probably a thousand more: I do care about rank. It's not a bad thing. However, I don't place it as high on the pedestal as others do. Some people are all about the rank, as if that alone, is the determining factor of skill in the arts. I don't know about you, but in all of the years that I've been training, I've seen some people who certainly didn't deserve the rank they had tied around their waist!! People that are Green, Brown and even Black belts, and their stances suck, their kata sucks, their punches and kicks suck! When I see that, to me, that doesn't indicate hard work. And if it does indicate hard work, then clearly that teacher views hard work very differently.

Sorry, but there are much more important things to worry about, than that new belt or stripe. Now, don't mistake that for me not liking when I get a new belt after a test. Difference is, I'm not in any rush. If it takes me 3 months or 3 years to advance to my next belt, then so be it. I don't want anything handed to me. I want to bust my ***, and put in the hard work. Especially when you're going for a higher rank.

 

[MJS]

Yeah. In my experience, when someone in a style with a belt system says, "I don't care about getting belts", usually what they really mean is either that they don't value their school's curriciulum and just want to practice whatever stuff they want, or that they're scared to test and are saying that to save face. Sometimes, they do mean, "I care about progressing, just not about the belt color", but that's not usually said in the same kind of whining way.

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but for me, I'll disagree with you. I do value my school's curriculum. I practice the material that's required for my rank. I'm certainly not scared to test. I've had more than my share of tests in 20+yrs of training. However, since the student is a reflection of the teacher, and in many cases, the tests are open to public viewing, I want to look my very best!

The belt, the color...really doesn't mean anything. What matters most is: How you perform the material, how well you can apply it, how well you understand it, how well you can adapt to changes, etc. Those are just a few things.

 

[donnaTKD]

i agree with what you're saying - the belt colour in itself is neither here nor there but the representation that you make at testing reflects the skill of the instructor in teaching you and also acts as an advert for the school that your representing.

 

[WaterGal]

On the other hand, when was the last time you were in a school that was so big as to require belts to know who is farther along in their training?

I think you're going to hit that as soon as you get more than maybe 50 or 60 students, especially if you have more than a few belts and not everyone is progressing at the same pace. It can get hard to remember, oh, is Student X still a belt ahead of Student Y, or did Y catch up or even pass X?

 

[WaterGal]

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but for me, I'll disagree with you. I do value my school's curriculum. I practice the material that's required for my rank. I'm certainly not scared to test. I've had more than my share of tests in 20+yrs of training. However, since the student is a reflection of the teacher, and in many cases, the tests are open to public viewing, I want to look my very best!

The belt, the color...really doesn't mean anything. What matters most is: How you perform the material, how well you can apply it, how well you understand it, how well you can adapt to changes, etc. Those are just a few things.

So you're the person I mentioned that cares about progressing in your schools system, just not about wearing a certain color on your waist. That's fine.

But in my experience, someone like you does not go around talking all the time about how they don't care about the belt system and getting belts. About how a black belt is just a piece of cloth and doesn't mean anything. In my experience, that person is usually saying that either because they're not committed to actually learning the style, or as an excuse to explain why they've stopped training/testing/whatever.

We've got a red belt guy that's doing that right now, talking a lot about how he doesn't care about getting a black belt and is fine with just being a color belt forever. I know he feels self-conscious because he's older and not as flexible or athletic as a lot of the other students, and I'm pretty sure the source of this "I don't care about belts" is that he's scared that he'll look bad at his black belt test.

 

[skribs]

I think you're going to hit that as soon as you get more than maybe 50 or 60 students, especially if you have more than a few belts and not everyone is progressing at the same pace. It can get hard to remember, oh, is Student X still a belt ahead of Student Y, or did Y catch up or even pass X?

Or if you have various classes that people sometimes mix and match. At my school, you're mostly separated into kid or adult classes by belt rank (adult beginner+intermediate or advanced, vs. kids beginner, intermediate, and then one class per belt...he's got about 8x the kids as adults), but then there's family classes and all kid or all adult classes for makeup, plus a few others. When you get into a family class or all kid/adult class and you don't know the other people...yeah, it helps.