To Shindo Quest Home Study
- Thread starter Shogun
- Start date
Dale Seago
Black Belt
Shogun said:
I wouldn't be too concerned about that at this point.
I suspect that Soke feels that SKH has "gone his own way" (hell, he was saying exactly that to me as far back as mid-1989). . .but I seriously doubt that expelling either Hayes or people who train with him are very high on Soke's personal list of priorities.
On the other hand, if Hatsumi soke feels Hayes is on a different and not entirely compatible path, it may be a good idea to examine your own priorities. . .
BTW, I think you'll like Bill Atkins. He and I started at about the same time, literally just a few weeks apart, at the Stockton, California dojo twenty years ago. He's a superb practitioner, a gifted teacher, and a wonderful person. To give you a sense of his incredible compassion, he was Ralph Severe's teacher for a while.
T
Turtle
Guest
Actually, the DVD's are really good. They are very practical! I was just teasing gmumoz. I apologize. SKH does an excellent job demonstrating style, form, and technique, as well as explanation.
Anyways, what is the whole stink about which art/style is the purest, and who is watered down or not. If you really take a look at the whole picture, you'll find that unless you are actually studying under Dr. Hatsumi, you can't say you are Bunjinkan. Even then, he has changed his style as well. Any other sensei, anshu, master is a branch of their sensei. You can't actually say that it is the original art since everyone is different and teaches different. I say stop bickering about who's style is purest like children and encourage everyone to perfect their own art/style so that it will benefit style, life and community.
Anyways, what is the whole stink about which art/style is the purest, and who is watered down or not. If you really take a look at the whole picture, you'll find that unless you are actually studying under Dr. Hatsumi, you can't say you are Bunjinkan. Even then, he has changed his style as well. Any other sensei, anshu, master is a branch of their sensei. You can't actually say that it is the original art since everyone is different and teaches different. I say stop bickering about who's style is purest like children and encourage everyone to perfect their own art/style so that it will benefit style, life and community.
Thanx turtle for that clarification. I especially agree with you regarding the need to stop bickering about who is and who isn't original. Every time something gets appropriated by someone else, i.e. teaching and learning, then it gets altered at some level. This includes everything in our society. All we can do is do all we can do to minimize the drastic negative change and in turn utilize it to better our world - making it a better and safer place.
I agree with that to an extent turtle...
But if someone teaches you to make stew and you turn around and make pizza...
Well... Or Like the Hapkido practitioners calling their art "Ninjutsu"... I can call my Pizza a stew... but in the end, its still a pizza.
They may be good guys, their art may be solid... its just... different.
I think, too... and this is just my opinion, so take this for what it's worth...
As an art, Ninjutsu (and specifically I am speaking of the X-Kans) really went thru a lot of (and still does) cr@p to try and legitimize itself... Denounching a lot of the "Ninja Image" changing the name to take Ninjutsu out... etc etc...
Practitoners of this art have been... well... subjugated by bad publicity, negative stereotyping, etc etc... and people coming along and "jumping on the ninja bandwagon" and spreading more of that "false" image like Ashida Kim, Frank Dux... etc... hurt the legitamacy the art had strived for. Can you really fault the practitioners of the art for being a bit defensive about people who come along and, well... for lack of a better term... slam them?
Sorry to take this off topic.
But if someone teaches you to make stew and you turn around and make pizza...
Well... Or Like the Hapkido practitioners calling their art "Ninjutsu"... I can call my Pizza a stew... but in the end, its still a pizza.
They may be good guys, their art may be solid... its just... different.
I think, too... and this is just my opinion, so take this for what it's worth...
As an art, Ninjutsu (and specifically I am speaking of the X-Kans) really went thru a lot of (and still does) cr@p to try and legitimize itself... Denounching a lot of the "Ninja Image" changing the name to take Ninjutsu out... etc etc...
Practitoners of this art have been... well... subjugated by bad publicity, negative stereotyping, etc etc... and people coming along and "jumping on the ninja bandwagon" and spreading more of that "false" image like Ashida Kim, Frank Dux... etc... hurt the legitamacy the art had strived for. Can you really fault the practitioners of the art for being a bit defensive about people who come along and, well... for lack of a better term... slam them?
Sorry to take this off topic.
S
shiro
Guest
If You look at What Mr. Hayes is teaching in His Kihon course and What Mr. Hatsumi or any Bujinkan System say Mr. Van Donks Homestudy it is as close as any two insturctors can teach what they have been taught by the same Instructor.
I do nto see why Mr. Hatsumi would be upset with Mr. Hayes I think He has returned closer to Mr. Hatsumi than He has for years with His Shadows of Iga class offered at the Quest centers Giving Rank through Mr. Hatsumi, and His kihon course in the classical systems, Seems Like Mr. Hatsumi would Be happy Mr. Hayes Has come back to the classical Systems in public.
Thank You
I do nto see why Mr. Hatsumi would be upset with Mr. Hayes I think He has returned closer to Mr. Hatsumi than He has for years with His Shadows of Iga class offered at the Quest centers Giving Rank through Mr. Hatsumi, and His kihon course in the classical systems, Seems Like Mr. Hatsumi would Be happy Mr. Hayes Has come back to the classical Systems in public.
Thank You
my question for shiro is... if you went to the taikai last year in your quest gi... why is it that no one here that claim to be so close to hatsumi and bujinkan have said they saw you. it seems like they are avoiding the statement you made. i was under the impression like shogun that anyone cross training would be banned.
shiro did you really go in your quest gi? if so is there anyone here that can validate this comment? if not... why?
shiro did you really go in your quest gi? if so is there anyone here that can validate this comment? if not... why?
S
shiro
Guest
I did go with my Quest Gi on I did train all three days I got my picture with Mr. Hoban Mr. Mastrom, Mr. Van Donk all were very nice. No one said anything bad to me, I did recieve a few looks from some but oh well. When I filled out my card I put Mr. Hayes down as my instructor. At the 2002 TaiKai One of Mr. Hayes Toshindo asst. Instuctors took her godan test given by Mr. Hatsumi You can see her demo with the other new godans.
I hope this helps. I will not hide who my Instrutor is I consider myself lucky to be accepted in His Dojo.
Have a Great Day
I hope this helps. I will not hide who my Instrutor is I consider myself lucky to be accepted in His Dojo.
Have a Great Day
Some "biscuit" posted a reputation to me listing my posts on this thread as spam. They obviously can't read. This thread is "To-Shin Do Quest Home Study". I asked a question recently to someone if they had been able to test or if anyone else was involved in the home courses.
Perhaps my question should have been posted on the TKD forum!
Perhaps my question should have been posted on the TKD forum!
S
shiro
Guest
I do not study ToShinDo at this time. I plan on it further down the road.
What I can say is that I was one of those people who read about Mr. Hayes ToShinDo In black belt Mag. And was thinking He sold out But in the few Years I have trained with Him In the Classical training I can say to everyone that I was 100 percent wrong.
I am sure if You study everyday You will do fine. I would urge You to try to get some training with Mr. Hayes Hombu,Seminar,Festival e.t.c. Good Luck In You training Gmunoz. If I can help in anyway let me know.
Latter
What I can say is that I was one of those people who read about Mr. Hayes ToShinDo In black belt Mag. And was thinking He sold out But in the few Years I have trained with Him In the Classical training I can say to everyone that I was 100 percent wrong.
I am sure if You study everyday You will do fine. I would urge You to try to get some training with Mr. Hayes Hombu,Seminar,Festival e.t.c. Good Luck In You training Gmunoz. If I can help in anyway let me know.
Latter
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Turtle
Guest
I'm with you on that one Techno, but we are talking about Hayes here. I understand the Hapkido or any other style/art trying to jump on the ninjutsu bandwagon. Hayes has studied with Hatsumi and still teaches ninjutsu as well as his practical version.
T
Turtle
Guest
Keep studying Toshindo gmunoz. Hold on to what you believe. After all, when everything else ends or goes away, or everyone abandons us, all we have left is what we believe. If everyone put more effort in what they believed, then there wouldn't be so much strife amongst martial artists. Whether they are generic or not, they believe in their style/art and that, to me, is what counts.
Turtle said:
Well, yeah... but...
And guys, I know there has been discussion about this before, sorry...
I know (personally) a BB Instructor from one of Mr. Hayes Shadows Of Iga schools. He explained to me the reason he left the organization was that at the start of ToShinDo Mr Hayes was teaching very short Seminars to TaeKwonDo schools and Certifying them to be ToShinDo schools... he disagreed with the practice...
IF that is true, and at this point I have no reason to doubt it... I dont see Toshindo as much different than say Tew-ryu, or Warrior International, Where they combined some Taijutsu basics with Hapkido to make their art...
The only credit for positive differences I will give Toshindo, is that THEY have a "master" with a strong Taijutsu background they can continue to learn from...
why would he choose tkd schools? why not tang soo do? at least that would have been the same initials. (tsd) or why would he not pull from the genbukan or the jenikan or the bujinkan students? (i wonder why there are not genbukan or jenikan students on here?) i don't know how true that is... i guess we can all say, "i know this one guy..." "and one time, at band camp". now we will have to know the name of this bb so that gmunoz or shiro can verify that.Technopunk said:
Enson said:
Ok, I will give you his name if he ok's it. Additionally, if you look at some other posts on here, some other people have stated simialr stories, so Its not just one guy.
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