Home Study Courses

[Dirty Dog]

(ADDING FUEL TO THE FIRE) The never to agree-back and forth conversation would end if those that say its impossible would just say that they themselves are not capable of learning from video.

Personally its easier to admit my weakness than point out yours.
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Ah, well, that's simple then. All you need to do is provide us with an example of someone learning a traditional martial art by reading books or watching videos, without real live instruction.

I don't think anybody will accept Ashida Kim or Choson Ninja as valid examples...

 

[James Kovacich]

I dont have to prove anything. Saying it cant be done is not proof," I,ve stated my position early on and if you read the thread you read my position on video training.

Now my position on "someone who does not know me "saying flat out I can't do it, I say B S. That was my point. Everyone is stating "their beleifs"
But no one has proved anything. Anyone can say anything on the net. That does not make it fact or proof.

For the record, I know people with legitimate high rank who have video courses but also use the "hands on" method because they some people will attend anywhere from once to several times a year. In addition they will connect you with instructors and or other students closer to them.

Its the approach that will make it work or fail.
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[Dirty Dog]

I dont have to prove anything. Saying it cant be done is not proof," I,ve stated my position early on and if you read the thread you read my position on video training.

Well duh. It's impossible to prove a negative, after all. The burden of proof is on the person making a positive assertion.

For the record, I know people with legitimate high rank who have video courses

Did they earn this legitimate high rank by reading books and watching videos, without live instruction? If not, then your statement is really irrelevant

but also use the "hands on" method because they some people will attend anywhere from once to several times a year. In addition they will connect you with instructors and or other students closer to them.

Its the approach that will make it work or fail.
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In other words, they use books/videos/Vulcan Mind Melding as a supplement to real training. I don't believe anybody has said they don't serve as useful purpose as supplemental information sources. So what exactly are you disagreeing with?

 

[James Kovacich]

My only point was nobody can claim whether or not someone can accomplish a physical feat without knowing the other persons physical abilities, which in this case, nobody can. I find it far reaching for person A to say person B can't physically do something without physicically knowing person B.

The people I referred have training camps and that's the method that works best. That's what I meant by "hands on" and I wasn't meaning to be confusing anyone.



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[DennisBreene]

No, I think the challenge is somewhat valid. In the medical scenario; the choice is death and almost certain death (via surgery). I would choose almost certain death. Martial arts training under that scenario is unlikely to produce death but I think we'd agree that it is more likely to produce injury than with a qualified instructor. If you have absolutely no other avenue but training via videos and references and you are that passionate, I'd say try it but be aware of the risks. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to have someone like James to exchange e-mails with and at least get some advice as you train.

(Playing devils advocate here)
What if you were in an "outback" wilderness situation and that same "home-trained" surgeon was "all you had" to save your life "or die?" Would you choose death? Please don't say that's differant. We are using your analagy.

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[jasonbrinn]

So when you did your distance learning what did you use to judge, or who told you it was "quality"?

Did someone check you and how did they do that?

Great question (although you always ask great questions Xue). Sorry for the delay but my two daughters, 3 & 2, developed the croupe and it was a not-so-fun week.

There are many different ways that I "check" for quality when reviewing, studying and producing distance learning material. I will give you my set but I bet there are more and even better ones that I have not found as of yet.

How to check the Quality of a Distance Learning Course

1. Does the teacher know what they are teaching? Now this question is different to different people. For some the question is answered by rank, others association, still others by the accomplishments of the students they turn out and lastly there is the "does what they teach work in a fight" consideration. I personally care more about the "does it work in a fight" consideration so I will generally take a few lessons and then try the material out with my friends in some "honest exchanges."

2. Is the Instructor of the material available for followup, preferably face-to-face? This ranks high for me, but not as critical as the "does it work in a fight."

3. How good is the production work in showing the necessary material? It ain't going to help if you can't understand what is going on most of the time. this just comes down to production quality really and unfortunately you normally have to stick a toe in the water to get this one. However, this is another good point - any program worth it's salt would give you a free trial of the material in order to judge this.

4. Does the instructor give up the goods in the course? This is much harder to judge, especially if you are new to the material. I have never taken a course via distance where I did not have some personal exposure to the material first. This is my hurdle I put in place since I teach others but it doesn't have to exist for others. I think this question can be answered by judging the instructors students and viewing other instructors to see if what your teacher is sharing is normal, incredible, or below basics.


Take the Gracie University courses for example;

IMO they get the check marks YES right down the line.

YES - Knowledge of Instructors
YES - Ranked
YES - Accomplishments of Students
YES - Work in a Fight
YES - Followup with Instructors via distance
YES - Followup with Instructors face-to-face
YES - Production Value
YES - Top level concepts/techniques in materials taught

 

[MJS]

Great question (although you always ask great questions Xue). Sorry for the delay but my two daughters, 3 & 2, developed the croupe and it was a not-so-fun week.

Well that sucks. Hopefully they're feeling better.

There are many different ways that I "check" for quality when reviewing, studying and producing distance learning material. I will give you my set but I bet there are more and even better ones that I have not found as of yet.

How to check the Quality of a Distance Learning Course

1. Does the teacher know what they are teaching? Now this question is different to different people. For some the question is answered by rank, others association, still others by the accomplishments of the students they turn out and lastly there is the "does what they teach work in a fight" consideration. I personally care more about the "does it work in a fight" consideration so I will generally take a few lessons and then try the material out with my friends in some "honest exchanges."

2. Is the Instructor of the material available for followup, preferably face-to-face? This ranks high for me, but not as critical as the "does it work in a fight."

3. How good is the production work in showing the necessary material? It ain't going to help if you can't understand what is going on most of the time. this just comes down to production quality really and unfortunately you normally have to stick a toe in the water to get this one. However, this is another good point - any program worth it's salt would give you a free trial of the material in order to judge this.

4. Does the instructor give up the goods in the course? This is much harder to judge, especially if you are new to the material. I have never taken a course via distance where I did not have some personal exposure to the material first. This is my hurdle I put in place since I teach others but it doesn't have to exist for others. I think this question can be answered by judging the instructors students and viewing other instructors to see if what your teacher is sharing is normal, incredible, or below basics.


Take the Gracie University courses for example;

IMO they get the check marks YES right down the line.

YES - Knowledge of Instructors
YES - Ranked
YES - Accomplishments of Students
YES - Work in a Fight
YES - Followup with Instructors via distance
YES - Followup with Instructors face-to-face
YES - Production Value
YES - Top level concepts/techniques in materials taught

1) The dvds that I've seen have had teachers who knew what they were doing. Folks such as Larry Tatum, Renzo Gracie, Royce and Rorion. I suppose a follow up to this would be: Is the student going to know what they're doing?

2) I'd like to think that if they're going to be getting paid, yes, most likely many would be available. If not them directly, then I'd imagine one of their top students would be. A follow up to this would be: Is the student willing to shell out the cash to fly to the teachers location? Will there be an additional cost for the student to actually have access to the teacher?

3) I agree with this. However, if the material is foreign to the student, the dvd could be the best production around, but if the student is lost, its not going to matter. Ex: A seasoned MAist should be able to pick up a dvd and grasp at least 50%, if not more, even if its an art they don't study. However, despite prior exp., it still doesnt mean the viewer will be any good.

4) Can you define "give up the goods" please?

 

[jasonbrinn]

4) Can you define "give up the goods" please?

Yes and thank you.

What I mean by "give up the goods" is just that there are a lot, A LOT, of DVDs and courses that rehash, recirculate materials found ANYWHERE including youtube, etc. Also, MANY courses and DVDs teach the absolute minimum that they would teach anywhere to anyone.

I have around 500+ instructional DVDs. I started young with Panther and every instance for gifts this is what I asked for. I then became friends with Mr. Moody of www.goldstarvideo.com and traded with him and got a lot more videos. I can tell you after having watched ALL of the DVDs that I have 98% of them show the same things and the absolute basics. Now, maybe those instructors did that for a couple of reasons; maybe that was all they knew, or maybe they thought that was all that should be taught via DVD. However, it seems some of them taught things that kept the buyers of their products "paced."

For instance; One of my favorite BJJ DVD series is by Demian Maia's Science of Jiu-Jitsu, http://www.groundfighter.com/Demian-Maia-Science-of-Jiu-Jitsu-Instructional-DVDs/. This is incredible material that just isn't taught most places even inside BJJ schools.

I have trained for over 14 years in BJJ and my last instructor taught a "beginner" move that I had never been taught before. When I asked him why he taught this and why I had never seen it before he just told me that it was "the good jiujitsu" and "a secret most people don't teach." Now the move is basic, maybe so basic it gets forgotten, but for whatever reason it is missing from all other DVDs and Books that I have on the subject. This one move has propelled his BJJ school to top results in all of the competitions (IMO).

Simply, some instructors use their DVDs and Courses via Distance as more of a Marketing Tool and save the "good stuff" for private seminars and students face-to-face.

 

[Chris Parker]

Great question (although you always ask great questions Xue). Sorry for the delay but my two daughters, 3 & 2, developed the croupe and it was a not-so-fun week.

There are many different ways that I "check" for quality when reviewing, studying and producing distance learning material. I will give you my set but I bet there are more and even better ones that I have not found as of yet.

How to check the Quality of a Distance Learning Course

1. Does the teacher know what they are teaching? Now this question is different to different people. For some the question is answered by rank, others association, still others by the accomplishments of the students they turn out and lastly there is the "does what they teach work in a fight" consideration. I personally care more about the "does it work in a fight" consideration so I will generally take a few lessons and then try the material out with my friends in some "honest exchanges."

2. Is the Instructor of the material available for followup, preferably face-to-face? This ranks high for me, but not as critical as the "does it work in a fight."

3. How good is the production work in showing the necessary material? It ain't going to help if you can't understand what is going on most of the time. this just comes down to production quality really and unfortunately you normally have to stick a toe in the water to get this one. However, this is another good point - any program worth it's salt would give you a free trial of the material in order to judge this.

4. Does the instructor give up the goods in the course? This is much harder to judge, especially if you are new to the material. I have never taken a course via distance where I did not have some personal exposure to the material first. This is my hurdle I put in place since I teach others but it doesn't have to exist for others. I think this question can be answered by judging the instructors students and viewing other instructors to see if what your teacher is sharing is normal, incredible, or below basics.


Take the Gracie University courses for example;

IMO they get the check marks YES right down the line.

YES - Knowledge of Instructors
YES - Ranked
YES - Accomplishments of Students
YES - Work in a Fight
YES - Followup with Instructors via distance
YES - Followup with Instructors face-to-face
YES - Production Value
YES - Top level concepts/techniques in materials taught

Hmm. I might be wrong, but the way I read Xue's question was that he was asking not how you could tell the course was quality, but how you could tell your results were quality. I'm not going to address the methods you used here (although I will say that they again show an ideal of learning "techniques", not a martial art here again), but I would be interested in hearing how you knew that the results you were getting were quality.

 

[ballen0351]

Hmm. I might be wrong, but the way I read Xue's question was that he was asking not how you could tell the course was quality, but how you could tell your results were quality. I'm not going to address the methods you used here (although I will say that they again show an ideal of learning "techniques", not a martial art here again), but I would be interested in hearing how you knew that the results you were getting were quality.

I would think if someone's looking to a DVD course then all they are concerned about are the techniques anyway. You say that like its a bad thing or its wrong. People want different things out of martial arts. Many could care less about traditions or the reasons behind certain techniques they just want to learn what they see.

People say oh DVDs are crap and your not learning anything so why not as martial artist see the need for a better way for people to learn from home instead of always just putting it down. For some there may be few if any other choices. I was working permanent 4 pm to midnight Tuesday thru sat. I only had sun and Mon off. Nobody around here offered classes during the day and my wife and kids would freak out if I left on Mondays to go to a class. I considered DVD training but I was able to find someone to train me in the early afternoon but I also drive and hour and half each way to get to him. For some that's not an option. In today's world of kids who have lived there whole lives with internet we need to come up with something other then "DVDs are crap". I've done entire police training scenarios with shoot don't shoot and driving on computers so its possible. There are game systems now that watch your body movement's to control the game play. The technology is out there.

 

[Cyriacus]

I would think if someone's looking to a DVD course then all they are concerned about are the techniques anyway. You say that like its a bad thing or its wrong. People want different things out of martial arts. Many could care less about traditions or the reasons behind certain techniques they just want to learn what they see.

People say oh DVDs are crap and your not learning anything so why not as martial artist see the need for a better way for people to learn from home instead of always just putting it down. For some there may be few if any other choices. I was working permanent 4 pm to midnight Tuesday thru sat. I only had sun and Mon off. Nobody around here offered classes during the day and my wife and kids would freak out if I left on Mondays to go to a class. I considered DVD training but I was able to find someone to train me in the early afternoon but I also drive and hour and half each way to get to him. For some that's not an option. In today's world of kids who have lived there whole lives with internet we need to come up with something other then "DVDs are crap". I've done entire police training scenarios with shoot don't shoot and driving on computers so its possible. There are game systems now that watch your body movement's to control the game play. The technology is out there.

Id say the main flaw is the lack of someone there to show You when Youre doing something wrong, even when it appears right to You.
Im personally of the opinion that DVDs/Videos can be... Interesting, if Youre already a Martial Artist, or just a Trained Fighter (Competitive). But for someone with no experience to pick one up, it wont amount to near as much. Thats not so much an insult to DVD learning, but just a bit of reasoning.
A Martial Artist could find some other way of applying what They already have, and a Competitive Fighter might get a new tactic. But an inexperienced individual will get movements which They will try to reproduce.

...Is that better than DVDs are crap?

 

[WC_lun]

Whether you have a choice or not in training from DVD's does not effect how well training is from a DvD. I know some people that is thier only choice and I feel for them, I really do. That doesn't make the option of training from DVD's a good one.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Hmm. I might be wrong, but the way I read Xue's question was that he was asking not how you could tell the course was quality, but how you could tell your results were quality. I'm not going to address the methods you used here (although I will say that they again show an ideal of learning "techniques", not a martial art here again), but I would be interested in hearing how you knew that the results you were getting were quality.

Great question Chris, maybe I did miss that.

I always test my training (face-to-face or distance learning) results with combat. The combat is not generic either, I take the whole process very scientifically and stick to what the data shows. After I have compiled something I believe to be "functional & efficient" I implement it into training appropriately. This has been my process for 20+ years. I go out and train, spar and fight with people from every school that will have me and have done this for 20+ years.

Now, the people I have taught the methods have done VERY well in the different arenas they have applied the training to from the military, police, MMA, sport, etc. I have had other acclaimed instructors review the material and give their stamp of approval, some even asking to have parts implemented into their own curriculum.

These and more have lead me to the belief that are results were quality results.



Thanks for asking,


Jason Brinn

 

[ballen0351]

Whether you have a choice or not in training from DVD's does not effect how well training is from a DvD. I know some people that is thier only choice and I feel for them, I really do. That doesn't make the option of training from DVD's a good one.

I'm not saying its as good or better then a real teacher but in my opinion the technology is here where someone could create a half way decent online/DVD training system that's better then nothing.

 

[jasonbrinn]

I'm not saying its as good or better then a real teacher but in my opinion the technology is here where someone could create a half way decent online/DVD training system that's better then nothing.

I totally agree with this and will even go a step further. I think with good realistic training a distance learning course can truly boost one's training and cut the learning curve down considerably.

Example: I have mentioned training BJJ. Well in BJJ some instructors favor some things. Most instructors in BJJ don't have a written curriculum either. I have personal experience with high ranking BJJ instructors not teaching a critical point. This was done for many good reasons. When one is learning something to start you give them the general points and then spend time as they "grow into the technique" teaching the finer points. The problem here is that without a curriculum sometimes coming back around to teach the finer points does not happen or at least doesn't happen in step with the student's progression. I have also known high ranking BJJ instructors to see a DVD and say, "Oh yeah, I remember that move now we did that a long time ago."

We are all people and we all forget, even Grand Masters forget. DVDs are great for cataloging concepts, training and techniques. A great reference tool at the very least.

"When you are not the lead dog, the view never changes." A favorite quote of mine. DVDs also give good perspective. You might have the greatest teacher in the world but not know it until you see some incredible Master on a DVD showing your basics the wrong way (and vice-versa). Training with others and viewing others training is a great tool to keep us all honest and the community improving.

Since I am old I can say that "back in the day" you had to trust your instructors word solely because Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet and getting VCR tapes took forever! Now, you can get more perspective and information to make better more informed decisions and a community set on this kind of path can only improve IMO.


Just my opinion,

Jason Brinn

 

[James Kovacich]

No, I think the challenge is somewhat valid. In the medical scenario; the choice is death and almost certain death (via surgery). I would choose almost certain death. Martial arts training under that scenario is unlikely to produce death but I think we'd agree that it is more likely to produce injury than with a qualified instructor. If you have absolutely no other avenue but training via videos and references and you are that passionate, I'd say try it but be aware of the risks. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to have someone like James to exchange e-mails with and at least get some advice as you train.

I mentioned early on the thread that I tried a similar manner of teaching and was not happy with the results. The emails may work with an experienced student though. I did also mention that the original poster (claimed to be a Kenpo purple belt) should look into Jeff Speakmans dvds. He has pretty good quality control over his program. Can video test to purple belt. From blue belt up, testing is in person. And I know for a fact that he produces top notch students.

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[MJS]

I agree with that but your saying I can't learn to defend myself without a live teacher? Because I've seen people with no trading at all fight off attackers to defend themselves. I talked to a woman just 2 weeks ago at work someone tried to rape her. She remembered something she saw on dateline was able to fight him off and get a DNA sample I won't tell you from where but he's prob not walking real well.

You're right....people are most likely capable of throwing a punch and kick, without any formal training. However, IMHO, if someone wants to improve and fine tune those skills, a live teacher is a must. People can mimic stuff on youtube, TUF and UFC reruns, and other dvd's, but like I've said, the training will most likely be sub-par and limited to their understanding of what they're watching. If people are Ok with that, then fine.

 

[MJS]

I would think if someone's looking to a DVD course then all they are concerned about are the techniques anyway. You say that like its a bad thing or its wrong. People want different things out of martial arts. Many could care less about traditions or the reasons behind certain techniques they just want to learn what they see.

Sure, nothing wrong with that, if they want to be technique collectors. Of course, like I told Zenjael, who seems to also be a technique collector, its not the techs that matter. People can know a million techs. but if they dont understand them, if they can't make them work, then whats the use?

People say oh DVDs are crap and your not learning anything so why not as martial artist see the need for a better way for people to learn from home instead of always just putting it down. For some there may be few if any other choices. I was working permanent 4 pm to midnight Tuesday thru sat. I only had sun and Mon off. Nobody around here offered classes during the day and my wife and kids would freak out if I left on Mondays to go to a class. I considered DVD training but I was able to find someone to train me in the early afternoon but I also drive and hour and half each way to get to him. For some that's not an option. In today's world of kids who have lived there whole lives with internet we need to come up with something other then "DVDs are crap". I've done entire police training scenarios with shoot don't shoot and driving on computers so its possible. There are game systems now that watch your body movement's to control the game play. The technology is out there.

Out of curiosity, you seem to be a big defender of at home training. You don't use this method do you? As for your last paragraph....I too, worked a 4p-12a shift, and yes, it sucked. Really cut into my training time. To further mess things up, my days off changed every 3 weeks, so I always had to work around that. Fortunately, my teachers were accomodating to me and of course, I was greatful. I was training long before I met my wife, and of course, shared with her, what I do, and she always has been supportive of that. Of course, likewise, I arranged my training, so that we were able to spend time. No, I'm sure she wouldn't like me being gone all the time either..lol.

But still, despite my crazy schedule, I never resorted to dvds. I'd rather do a 1 on 1 private lesson and pay extra for that, in the event I couldn't make it to class. I'm fortunate....1 of my teachers, who I train privately with, is very close by, so I do try to train with him a few times a month. The dojo that I attend on a regular basis is close by as well. I'm there 3-4 times a week, for a 1hr class. This hasn't hindered my home life at all.

In the end, I suppose it all comes down to what people want. Some are more serious about training than others. If people want to use a dvd, then fine, it is what it is. Their training will be limited to the content of the dvd only. If people are lucky to train at a dojo, then thats great too. I do think alot of times though, people are looking for the easy way. Instead of making a sacrifice, they take a shortcut. But again, it is what it is.

 

[MJS]

Yes and thank you.

What I mean by "give up the goods" is just that there are a lot, A LOT, of DVDs and courses that rehash, recirculate materials found ANYWHERE including youtube, etc. Also, MANY courses and DVDs teach the absolute minimum that they would teach anywhere to anyone.

I have around 500+ instructional DVDs. I started young with Panther and every instance for gifts this is what I asked for. I then became friends with Mr. Moody of www.goldstarvideo.com and traded with him and got a lot more videos. I can tell you after having watched ALL of the DVDs that I have 98% of them show the same things and the absolute basics. Now, maybe those instructors did that for a couple of reasons; maybe that was all they knew, or maybe they thought that was all that should be taught via DVD. However, it seems some of them taught things that kept the buyers of their products "paced."

For instance; One of my favorite BJJ DVD series is by Demian Maia's Science of Jiu-Jitsu, http://www.groundfighter.com/Demian-Maia-Science-of-Jiu-Jitsu-Instructional-DVDs/. This is incredible material that just isn't taught most places even inside BJJ schools.

I have trained for over 14 years in BJJ and my last instructor taught a "beginner" move that I had never been taught before. When I asked him why he taught this and why I had never seen it before he just told me that it was "the good jiujitsu" and "a secret most people don't teach." Now the move is basic, maybe so basic it gets forgotten, but for whatever reason it is missing from all other DVDs and Books that I have on the subject. This one move has propelled his BJJ school to top results in all of the competitions (IMO).

Simply, some instructors use their DVDs and Courses via Distance as more of a Marketing Tool and save the "good stuff" for private seminars and students face-to-face.

I think Jason, that you're spot on with what you said! And see, this is probably one of the top reasons why I'm not a dvd fan, other than just for a reference tool. Now, there's nothing to say that I'd get all the secrets, if I went to the Gracie Academy. I'm pretty sure, though I may be wrong, that the family has their 'secrets' that they share with just the family. OTOH, I'm sure there're teachers out there that give it all to their students. I'd say its a matter of getting lucky to find that teacher.

In any case, thank you again, for the clarification. On an off topic note, hope the kids are better.

 

[ballen0351]

Sure, nothing wrong with that, if they want to be technique collectors. Of course, like I told Zenjael, who seems to also be a technique collector, its not the techs that matter. People can know a million techs. but if they dont understand them, if they can't make them work, then whats the use?



Out of curiosity, you seem to be a big defender of at home training. You don't use this method do you? As for your last paragraph....I too, worked a 4p-12a shift, and yes, it sucked. Really cut into my training time. To further mess things up, my days off changed every 3 weeks, so I always had to work around that. Fortunately, my teachers were accomodating to me and of course, I was greatful. I was training long before I met my wife, and of course, shared with her, what I do, and she always has been supportive of that. Of course, likewise, I arranged my training, so that we were able to spend time. No, I'm sure she wouldn't like me being gone all the time either..lol.

But still, despite my crazy schedule, I never resorted to dvds. I'd rather do a 1 on 1 private lesson and pay extra for that, in the event I couldn't make it to class. I'm fortunate....1 of my teachers, who I train privately with, is very close by, so I do try to train with him a few times a month. The dojo that I attend on a regular basis is close by as well. I'm there 3-4 times a week, for a 1hr class. This hasn't hindered my home life at all.

In the end, I suppose it all comes down to what people want. Some are more serious about training than others. If people want to use a dvd, then fine, it is what it is. Their training will be limited to the content of the dvd only. If people are lucky to train at a dojo, then thats great too. I do think alot of times though, people are looking for the easy way. Instead of making a sacrifice, they take a shortcut. But again, it is what it is.

No I've never trained with an at home system. I don't even own a single martial arts DVD. I will from time to time use your tube if I forget a certain part of a Kata I was working on in class. I like going to a class but that's just my personal preference. I just get sick of this attitude some have that if you don't train the way I did your not a "real" martial artist. People want to learn for different reasons. If you want to learn from a DVD or online system I say go do it have fun train hard. Who am I or any of us to judge. People come on here and tell someone well your not learning anything and you will never be able to defend yourself. Well truth is this isn't the wild west anymore I bet most people on this forum have never even been in a real fight. Its not a knock or put down its just fact most people other then.grade school have never been in a fight as an adult. Its just they way things are now and that's a good thing. Don't get me wring I think traditional training in a dojo is better then a DVD I just think people go a little over board with the you will never learn anything your better off just doing nothing then training with a DVD. Now I also think people that come on here looking for some kind of approval from forum memebers on their master trading plans are just as silly why do you care what we think if you want to go buy DVD and train go do it who cares what we think and save yourself the grief and use the search function there are only 100 other threads like this one