To-Shin Do compared to Bujinkan compared to Shadows of Iga
- Thread starter Bob Hubbard
- Start date
MrFunnieman
Yellow Belt
Trying the quote thing fellas, patience is appreciated. Thanks 
"I always wondered what the Toshindoka (would that be the proper term for a practicioner of the style?) were talking about with the "earth level" or "water level" of training."
Terms are always clear when you are the student of a system, and one can overlook the fact that others who don't train with you may not know what you are talking about.
I knew from reading his books, that he was big into using the five elements model to describe nearly everything, but I didn't know how it was involved in forming the curriculum.
Very interesting.
Now for a few clarifying questions:
"So is the Shadows of Iga still in existence, and is it still the way the Quest centers teach Bujinkan material?"
From my understanding they are not quite the same. I was around when the current Shadows of Iga was formed and it was developed because there was an interest in more hitorical models of the ryuha. I can not speak for all the Quest Centers, they are independantly owned, but the Hombu dojo was using those class periods to transmit what I think of as Bujinkan material. Mr. Hayes was developing a sequence that would reflect material from different ryu and from different levels within the scrolls. He was still tweaking it when I left.
"Does this imply that mudansha do not need to bring any equipment to class because they do not learn any weapons skills until shodan? And is groundfighting not covered at lower levels, or is it just more emphasized after black belt?"
Sorry, unclear term. The Black Belt club is a program designed for people that enroll in a contract in which they promise to earn their black belt. There are times set aside for Black Belt Club meetings where there is training in weapons, groundfighting, etc.
We were taught, and I taught, that every technique in the curriculum could be applied with a weapon. Put a knife in my hand and there was an interpretive way to do the technique, same with a cord (chain) or stick, etc. The idea was that all techniques are principle based and when the priniciple is known or discovered it could be used in different applications. I am sure the same has been said in reference to Bujinkan training.
Ground defense is taught at every level. Just as the curriculum builds so does the amount of contact in ground defense. In level 1 students learn how to kick and manuever on the ground, this builds until students are comfortable with scenarios that might resemble a NHB competition (although less intense). Safety is an important aspect at the Quest Center. Critics might imply almost to a fault. Most of the blackbelts were confortable with higher intensity workouts.
"I've seen some Bujinkan dojo that do this as well - use material specifically from one of the nine ryu as the curriculum for yudansha grades. Not all Buj' dojo do this, and those that do, don't necessarily teach them in the same order.
Do you know which order they are covered in TSD &/or SoI?"
Unfortunately I don't know. I don't think all the ryu are covered in TSD. The SoI was still in it's infancy when I stopped training.
"I too am sometimes frustrated by that aspect of Buj' training, but I realize that if it wasn't that way, I probably wouldn't have experienced as much growth. I've actually come to enjoy the fact that I never know what's coming next - it pushes me to be prepared for anything, to expect that I am going to be pushed past my comfort zone on some occasions and bored with old material on others."
Mr. Hayes wants to run a successful school, and transmit his philosphy and system to a diversity of people. I think that people at the Quest Center are pushed to their individual limits. If someone has exceptional skill they may be promoted more quickly. I have also seen others struggle. With TSD or Bujinkan, there is a sophistication to the movements and particularly the principles that are hard for many to grasp. I like to think I fell somewhere in the middle The Quest Center "mottos" are "unleash your potential" and "step out of your comfort zone". The Hayes want a high quality school and have set a standard for their students.
"All that is available at Bujinkan dojo, but consistency as been sacrificed for freedom. Novices are often confronted with advanced material that rockets them past plateaus in their learning curve. Such a wide variety of material is covered that it would be impossible to schedule out what gets taught and when, as many things would have to be left out. Everyone is exposed to the same tactics and techniques regardless of their rank, and in essence, one is either a blackbelt or they are not, so ranking tends to be very under-emphasized. What is left, then, is a focus on developing new ways of thinking, fostering a stronger spirit, having a good heart, moving properly with flow and feeling, and not being limited in any way."
Shizen Shigoku, I have no doubt that a Bujinkan school offers the same possibilites. I think many people are intimidated by the TSD use of "curriculum" It has been described as a toolbox. There are lots of tools, but no specific instructions on what needs to be built or when to build it. Each tool has a natural application and when the body is trained it will respond based on the owners personality and situation. There are several ways to make the letter "A" but in America we first learn it by printing it, until we mature and reach a certain level of sophitication that is the only "A" we know. Same thing with the curriculum and TSD process. After the "wind" level there is the "void", endless possibility. The kyu ranks are learning the alphabet and the dan ranks are making sentences. We will all develop our own prose someday.
A person discovers personal power through discipline. Discipline, however, limits freedom. We can not be free until we develop personal power. Development of character, esteem and potential are all ideals that the Quest Center was designed to build and expand those qualities. It would be wrong for a person to go to the Quest Center to train for NHB. Go to the Lion's Den and train with Ken Shamrock if that is your goal.
"Yeah, might have to actually engage in real ninjutsu then, i.e. information gathering, perservering through difficulties situations in order to reach a goal, etc.
All the "problems" with the Bujinkan method are actually part of the training.
"Rough Seas Make Good Sailors."
You are right. Everyday, every situation, is a training opportunity. We all have to hope that our eyes are open when the light of enlightenment shines.
Yours in Budo,
MrFunnieman
"I always wondered what the Toshindoka (would that be the proper term for a practicioner of the style?) were talking about with the "earth level" or "water level" of training."
Terms are always clear when you are the student of a system, and one can overlook the fact that others who don't train with you may not know what you are talking about.
I knew from reading his books, that he was big into using the five elements model to describe nearly everything, but I didn't know how it was involved in forming the curriculum.
Very interesting.
Now for a few clarifying questions:
"So is the Shadows of Iga still in existence, and is it still the way the Quest centers teach Bujinkan material?"
From my understanding they are not quite the same. I was around when the current Shadows of Iga was formed and it was developed because there was an interest in more hitorical models of the ryuha. I can not speak for all the Quest Centers, they are independantly owned, but the Hombu dojo was using those class periods to transmit what I think of as Bujinkan material. Mr. Hayes was developing a sequence that would reflect material from different ryu and from different levels within the scrolls. He was still tweaking it when I left.
"Does this imply that mudansha do not need to bring any equipment to class because they do not learn any weapons skills until shodan? And is groundfighting not covered at lower levels, or is it just more emphasized after black belt?"
Sorry, unclear term. The Black Belt club is a program designed for people that enroll in a contract in which they promise to earn their black belt. There are times set aside for Black Belt Club meetings where there is training in weapons, groundfighting, etc.
We were taught, and I taught, that every technique in the curriculum could be applied with a weapon. Put a knife in my hand and there was an interpretive way to do the technique, same with a cord (chain) or stick, etc. The idea was that all techniques are principle based and when the priniciple is known or discovered it could be used in different applications. I am sure the same has been said in reference to Bujinkan training.
Ground defense is taught at every level. Just as the curriculum builds so does the amount of contact in ground defense. In level 1 students learn how to kick and manuever on the ground, this builds until students are comfortable with scenarios that might resemble a NHB competition (although less intense). Safety is an important aspect at the Quest Center. Critics might imply almost to a fault. Most of the blackbelts were confortable with higher intensity workouts.
"I've seen some Bujinkan dojo that do this as well - use material specifically from one of the nine ryu as the curriculum for yudansha grades. Not all Buj' dojo do this, and those that do, don't necessarily teach them in the same order.
Do you know which order they are covered in TSD &/or SoI?"
Unfortunately I don't know. I don't think all the ryu are covered in TSD. The SoI was still in it's infancy when I stopped training.
"I too am sometimes frustrated by that aspect of Buj' training, but I realize that if it wasn't that way, I probably wouldn't have experienced as much growth. I've actually come to enjoy the fact that I never know what's coming next - it pushes me to be prepared for anything, to expect that I am going to be pushed past my comfort zone on some occasions and bored with old material on others."
Mr. Hayes wants to run a successful school, and transmit his philosphy and system to a diversity of people. I think that people at the Quest Center are pushed to their individual limits. If someone has exceptional skill they may be promoted more quickly. I have also seen others struggle. With TSD or Bujinkan, there is a sophistication to the movements and particularly the principles that are hard for many to grasp. I like to think I fell somewhere in the middle
The Quest Center "mottos" are "unleash your potential" and "step out of your comfort zone". The Hayes want a high quality school and have set a standard for their students."All that is available at Bujinkan dojo, but consistency as been sacrificed for freedom. Novices are often confronted with advanced material that rockets them past plateaus in their learning curve. Such a wide variety of material is covered that it would be impossible to schedule out what gets taught and when, as many things would have to be left out. Everyone is exposed to the same tactics and techniques regardless of their rank, and in essence, one is either a blackbelt or they are not, so ranking tends to be very under-emphasized. What is left, then, is a focus on developing new ways of thinking, fostering a stronger spirit, having a good heart, moving properly with flow and feeling, and not being limited in any way."
Shizen Shigoku, I have no doubt that a Bujinkan school offers the same possibilites. I think many people are intimidated by the TSD use of "curriculum" It has been described as a toolbox. There are lots of tools, but no specific instructions on what needs to be built or when to build it. Each tool has a natural application and when the body is trained it will respond based on the owners personality and situation. There are several ways to make the letter "A" but in America we first learn it by printing it, until we mature and reach a certain level of sophitication that is the only "A" we know. Same thing with the curriculum and TSD process. After the "wind" level there is the "void", endless possibility. The kyu ranks are learning the alphabet and the dan ranks are making sentences. We will all develop our own prose someday.
A person discovers personal power through discipline. Discipline, however, limits freedom. We can not be free until we develop personal power. Development of character, esteem and potential are all ideals that the Quest Center was designed to build and expand those qualities. It would be wrong for a person to go to the Quest Center to train for NHB. Go to the Lion's Den and train with Ken Shamrock if that is your goal.
"Yeah, might have to actually engage in real ninjutsu then, i.e. information gathering, perservering through difficulties situations in order to reach a goal, etc.
All the "problems" with the Bujinkan method are actually part of the training.
"Rough Seas Make Good Sailors."
You are right. Everyday, every situation, is a training opportunity. We all have to hope that our eyes are open when the light of enlightenment shines.
Yours in Budo,
MrFunnieman
Mountain Kusa
Orange Belt
Shizen, I was repeating what Charles said himself. That the TCJ was provided to him in the very early days of the Bujinkan coming to america. On another forum, we all had a discussion about the very thing of if there is curricullum which is to be used by Bujinkan practitioners. We all agreed that it was the TCJ. However because there were so many looking to cash in on the early "ninja" craze, the TCJ until recently never rose to the top. whether by misunderstanding of what is was for etc. Ed Martin, Thom Humphries, George Russell, and many others agreed that the TCJ was and is the curriculum for the Bujinkan. We of the collective have agreed on these things. The TCJ is to be used in our teaching. We will communicate with each other on training, go to seminars we are all holding, and welcome each others students. Not charge high prices for training. The Bujinkan Training manual was translated to Japanese and was presented to Hatsumi Sensei and he did approve it.
The bujinkan Training manual is in easy to read and understand format, written with english words, and available to anyone in the bujinkan that wants it. However there are its detractors. Some teachers that do not want that knowledge out there for any student to see because it takes the mistery out of what they are doing. It places the training directly into the students hands so they can always go back to it.
This is what I personally have found. It makes our training time more productive. They always have a way to go back and look at the material if they are home trainiing. When they come to class they actually have good questions to ask. Now there is the new and revised version with theories, katas, vocabulary, physics, henka ideas etc. over 300 pages of material to last through many years of training.
So again i say, there has always been organization in the Bujinkan, it is just that some didnt share it with their students, and didnt do as the Grandmaster of ths art had asked. He has been telling us for years,"train with as many as possible", Think about this.http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif
The bujinkan Training manual is in easy to read and understand format, written with english words, and available to anyone in the bujinkan that wants it. However there are its detractors. Some teachers that do not want that knowledge out there for any student to see because it takes the mistery out of what they are doing. It places the training directly into the students hands so they can always go back to it.
This is what I personally have found. It makes our training time more productive. They always have a way to go back and look at the material if they are home trainiing. When they come to class they actually have good questions to ask. Now there is the new and revised version with theories, katas, vocabulary, physics, henka ideas etc. over 300 pages of material to last through many years of training.
So again i say, there has always been organization in the Bujinkan, it is just that some didnt share it with their students, and didnt do as the Grandmaster of ths art had asked. He has been telling us for years,"train with as many as possible", Think about this.http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif
GBlues
Purple Belt
Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum, so please forgive any errors. I've studied various different arts off and on over the course of my lifetime. I've learned just enough to get myself killed in an altercation . However, I have recently began training at a local Quest Center. I have thus far thouroughly enjoyed training there. Before I went to the Quest Center, I did look into Bujinkan. I am very interested in the art of ninjutsu. I had a few problems with Bujinkan personally. First, the instructor that I went to check was unable to really work with me do to the type of work that I do. I am unable to attend classes on a regular basis. Second of all, it was more of a social gathering. The instructor explained that in ninjutsu there is no set curriculum every student kind of finds his own way to do martial arts. The problem with this I felt was if you are new to the martial arts, don't you really need to learn the basics? And don't you really need to learn them in kind of a set format, so that you can progress? I mean personally when a guy has been training for 4 years and still can't do a simple forward roll, and the instructor just got done telling me that's what you learn first, and you spend 6 months doing it, before you learn even one technique, and this guy is a green belt, isn't there something wrong there. The truth of the matter is, that a set curriculum allows you to learn. You learn the way it is done in the classroom, and later as you progress, you learn to make it work through various changes to fit your style, or way of doing things. But you must have a base foundation, that from what I have seen personally of bujinkan you can't get. Without a good foundation no ninjutsu or karate, or kung-fu is ever going to work for you. You must learn the basics, and you must learn them properly or all of your skills will fail you when you need them the most. That's my take anyways. There are certain things you can change, and some you can't. Like my dad told me when I was young and he was teaching me how to defend myself, " Son these things have worked for thousands of years. What makes you think that your way is better?"
Wise words from a wise man. Just because you want freedom of technique, and freedom to blossom, doesn't there have to be some kind of structure?
That's my peace I sincerely do not wish to upset, or offend anyone, but the bujinkan I saw, did not impress me in the least. Seemed like the guy was intentionally slowing the progression of his students to keep them coming back, paying there 65 bucks every month.
Your Thoughts?
. However, I have recently began training at a local Quest Center. I have thus far thouroughly enjoyed training there. Before I went to the Quest Center, I did look into Bujinkan. I am very interested in the art of ninjutsu. I had a few problems with Bujinkan personally. First, the instructor that I went to check was unable to really work with me do to the type of work that I do. I am unable to attend classes on a regular basis. Second of all, it was more of a social gathering. The instructor explained that in ninjutsu there is no set curriculum every student kind of finds his own way to do martial arts. The problem with this I felt was if you are new to the martial arts, don't you really need to learn the basics? And don't you really need to learn them in kind of a set format, so that you can progress? I mean personally when a guy has been training for 4 years and still can't do a simple forward roll, and the instructor just got done telling me that's what you learn first, and you spend 6 months doing it, before you learn even one technique, and this guy is a green belt, isn't there something wrong there. The truth of the matter is, that a set curriculum allows you to learn. You learn the way it is done in the classroom, and later as you progress, you learn to make it work through various changes to fit your style, or way of doing things. But you must have a base foundation, that from what I have seen personally of bujinkan you can't get. Without a good foundation no ninjutsu or karate, or kung-fu is ever going to work for you. You must learn the basics, and you must learn them properly or all of your skills will fail you when you need them the most. That's my take anyways. There are certain things you can change, and some you can't. Like my dad told me when I was young and he was teaching me how to defend myself, " Son these things have worked for thousands of years. What makes you think that your way is better?" Wise words from a wise man. Just because you want freedom of technique, and freedom to blossom, doesn't there have to be some kind of structure?
That's my peace I sincerely do not wish to upset, or offend anyone, but the bujinkan I saw, did not impress me in the least. Seemed like the guy was intentionally slowing the progression of his students to keep them coming back, paying there 65 bucks every month.
Your Thoughts?
Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum, so please forgive any errors. I've studied various different arts off and on over the course of my lifetime. I've learned just enough to get myself killed in an altercation
Wise words from a wise man. Just because you want freedom of technique, and freedom to blossom, doesn't there have to be some kind of structure?
That's my peace I sincerely do not wish to upset, or offend anyone, but the bujinkan I saw, did not impress me in the least. Seemed like the guy was intentionally slowing the progression of his students to keep them coming back, paying there 65 bucks every month.
Your Thoughts?
There are good teachers and bad teachers in every system To Shin Do included. There are also good practitioners and bad practitioner in every system. I am glad you found a good place to train so train well and enjoy it. However, no that there are also great teachers, practitioners in other systems doing the same thing.
Welcome aboard, GBlue! As Brian said, there will be good and bad in every system so don't judge an entire system from one instructor. I did that with an art myself and found out after being on MT for awhile that that particular instructor was not representative of the art as a whole but was rather the exception.
As you're new to the board you might want to place an introductory thread in our Meet and Greet section to give the board at large the chance to get to know you. We have a great bunch of folks on this board from every discipline you have probably ever heard of and all of them are eager to share their knowledge with you.
As you're new to the board you might want to place an introductory thread in our Meet and Greet section to give the board at large the chance to get to know you. We have a great bunch of folks on this board from every discipline you have probably ever heard of and all of them are eager to share their knowledge with you.
GBlues
Purple Belt
Yeah I know that to be true guys. IT just seems like there are more people out there trying to squeeze every last plugged nickel out of someone, and really making a bad name for the arts in general. I don't mind a guy making a living, but sheash, some of these guys go to far. I was just stating my observation of the school that I went to observe. I mean don't get me wrong, I think that freedom to experiment with your techniques most definitely should be in any martial art. I just think that there should be some structure. A good base, that you can work from. I've studied chinese kenpo off and on probably most of my life. Whether through my dad, or through different schools, and I never really got that base foundation, until probably just here recently. My father taught me on an as you need to know type of basis, and our religion at the time really frowned upon any martial arts training of any kind. So it wasn't easy. What I have learned though is that, that stuff is what is going to make you either learn really fast, once you've got it down pat, or make your progress very slow, if you don't. Everything hinges on the basics right? I mean maybe the reality is that Ninjutsu is like Jeet Kune Do in a sense. That you must first have a good foundation before you should consider training in the art. Then you don't have to waste so much time teaching basic techniques and could really get into the more general uses and adaptations to a technique. I don't know if my line of thinking is correct on this or not, but seems to make sense at the moment. That's what would really allow you the more freedom to explore because you would already have a firm foundation in something else that you could relate to your current training, and begin to create your own style of ninjutsu, or karate, whatever martial art. Yeah?
I get where you're coming from and agree with you. I study Nihon Goshin Aikido. Aikido is one of those arts that folks say is not a good "first art" either. Having a good basis in striking, kicking, blocking, falling and rolling is essential to being able to progress in any art. My statement regarding your earlier post was simply a caution against judging the art as a whole but it seems you have a good understanding of that already. You bring up a good point that I think most folks in the martial arts would agree with. Even at the I-kyu and shodan levels you can still get a lot from working the basics and fine tuning your movement or perhaps just refreshing what you already have. Cool thing about the basics is that they are exactly that... basic. They don't take a huge amount of skill to acquire and can be worked whether you're inside the dojo or in your living room.
GBlues
Purple Belt
Oh,yeah. The other thing about the basics, is that when all else fails, that is what usually works, you've practiced it for 5 or 6 years, maybe even longer. Because they are basic and simple they work. Yeah by the way I tried the meet and greet, got a whole bunch of stuff writetten down and then I hit a button on my laptop and lost it, but I will definitely post something soon. Just I don't want to go through the whole process again. You know. But yeah, my father has always told me that it doesn't matter what you practice as long as you believe in it, it will always be there for you when you need. That doesn't mean that you'll walk away from every encounter that comes to blows, but it will work. I find that alot of the guys on here that I used to read posts from before I joined the forum are about what works and what doesn't. I don't think that it matters. These things have been around along time ( some of them) and they wouldn't still be if they didn't work. I'm sure that the way Bujinkan is taught is an effective way for alot of people, and has worked for thousands of years. The same can be said of any art. So I feel you guys. I don't look down on any martial art, or anyone wishing to train in them. I think they all have there merits, and all are very applicable depending on the person practicing that art.
Respectfully,
Nicholas
Respectfully,
Nicholas
GBlues
Purple Belt
Exactly and normally when you have reached blackbelt, hopefully you continued to train your basics, and so you have done that for a long time. So when all else fails it is the basics that most people tend to fall back on. Simple easy to use, easy to put into practice. I've noticed actually that alot of schools are kind of getting away from really fancy pretty techniques, and going more for the military style basic hand to hand combat. Cause it's easy to use, and doesn't take alot of thought.
On another thought though, I want to say this cause I have found in alot places where I read or look up martial arts, there is almost always art bashing. My father told me once when I was young. It doesn't matter what you practice, or what you learn, as long as you believe that it works it will. Now, alot of other factors go into that, but I think that is basically true. Some of these arts have been around along time, and would not be if they didn't work. So yeah I have respect for all of the arts. By the way I tried the meet and greet, wrote down a whole bunch of stuff about me, and then hit the wrong button on the computer and lost it all. I will though. I like this forum.
Respectfully,
Nicholas
P.S. Nice to meet you guys.
On another thought though, I want to say this cause I have found in alot places where I read or look up martial arts, there is almost always art bashing. My father told me once when I was young. It doesn't matter what you practice, or what you learn, as long as you believe that it works it will. Now, alot of other factors go into that, but I think that is basically true. Some of these arts have been around along time, and would not be if they didn't work. So yeah I have respect for all of the arts. By the way I tried the meet and greet, wrote down a whole bunch of stuff about me, and then hit the wrong button on the computer and lost it all. I will though. I like this forum.
Respectfully,
Nicholas
P.S. Nice to meet you guys.
Nicholas, one of the things the staff here at MT try really hard to do is monitor the posts to ensure that style bashing doesn't happen. Bob Hubbard (the guy that owns the site) bills it as a "Friendly" place to discuss the martial arts. We (the staff) are his way of making sure that discussions can take place and stay within that friendly frame work. If a post ever offends you please click the little triangle with an (!) in the middle of it to report that post to the moderation staff.
As for many styles going to the militaristic type of defenses:
There are arts that are geared for self defense and there are arts that self defense is a secondary interest. The ones that focus solely on self defense are the ones you'll see with the simpler techniques. There are just as many reasons for the study of the martial arts as there are martial artists training in them. Yes, I agree that if you believe in it it will work for you. However, what works and what doesn't is very important. No matter how much you may believe in a technique if it just doesn't work then it just doesn't work. The trick, I think, is to find an art that offers what you are looking for and do it. I've always been very careful of putting down other arts just because they aren't what I study because I'm enough of a realist to know that my art has some holes in it that other arts could potentially cover for me. So long as you're enjoying what you're doing and it works for you then I see no problem.
As for many styles going to the militaristic type of defenses:
There are arts that are geared for self defense and there are arts that self defense is a secondary interest. The ones that focus solely on self defense are the ones you'll see with the simpler techniques. There are just as many reasons for the study of the martial arts as there are martial artists training in them. Yes, I agree that if you believe in it it will work for you. However, what works and what doesn't is very important. No matter how much you may believe in a technique if it just doesn't work then it just doesn't work. The trick, I think, is to find an art that offers what you are looking for and do it. I've always been very careful of putting down other arts just because they aren't what I study because I'm enough of a realist to know that my art has some holes in it that other arts could potentially cover for me. So long as you're enjoying what you're doing and it works for you then I see no problem.
GBlues
Purple Belt
I agree with 100%. Just so you know nothing really offends me, only narrow mindedness. We all need to be open minded because like you say all of our arts have gaps that the others can fill. Like in my toshindo class there is no one right answer. There are maybe more effective ways, but there are many answers to one problem.
I have thouroughly enjoyed this. Thank you.
I have thouroughly enjoyed this. Thank you.
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