Cross training in various Kans?

[Doc_Jude]

I can't believe this conversation has made it to a second page.

What on earth do you think you will gain by training in two orgs?

Do you really expect to be a serious student of someone and take another "ninja" class with a different org -- and not have it show up somewhere down the road (at which point you will probably be expelled from the school - and blacklisted at all other local dojos)????

Find an instructor you like. Period. Full stop.

If you suppliment him with another instructor... both will probably know. And you will probably burn both bridges...

-Daniel

PS. Sorry this is a bit harsh... but GEEZ.... why are we even debating this?

You don't have to stay. I'm having a good time, why don't you try to have one too?

 

[stephen]

Also, I noticed that the Bujinkan Shingitai-Ichi Dojo here in Chicago focuses on the basics quite extensively. From the website:

If you stick with that dojo I guarantee you'll be okay. Lemme say that again: I GUARANTEE you'll be okay.

Also, I'll be in the area in two weeks, maybe I'll see you at training?

 

[Mr. E]

Some organizations have written rules, some have understood rules, and some have no rules.

There are very few traditional arts that have no rules as you would think. They might not have posted rules, but they deal with things in their own way.

If you were in Japan, before you trained with any other art you would be expected to provide a letter of reference from your teacher before you could train with a new one. Under such circumstances there is no real need to post anything. If someone wanted to train with an art the teacher did not want you to train with, they just would find some excuse to not produce the letter. In my experience, they would not refuse directly, but you would not get any encouragement from them.

So rather than asking if there is something public that says you can't do something, you should be asking if there is a public statement letting you know it is ok to train as you would like.

And I know that several years ago Mr Hatsumi said that he did not want his students training with ex-students of his. So since the Jinenkan is headed by someone who is an ex-student of Mr Hatsumi, you would be wise to err on the side of caution before training with Mr Manaka. Unless you know for certain, then to do otherwise is just too much of a risk for those that really care about what their Soke thinks.

There are many arts in Japan that do not let their students train with other arts. Only a few post these in public. Shorinji Kenpo is one that does. If you train with them, you can't train with any other martial art. They may be in the minority in terms of going public, but their attitude is far from uncommon. The accepted course of action in a Japanese art is to ask the head of the system or his representatives before you do something. The western way of thinking seems to be to do whatever you want unless someone calls you up to personally tell you otherwise.

 

[Shicomm]

Find an instructor you like. Period. Full stop.

If you suppliment him with another instructor... both will probably know. And you will probably burn both bridges...

I was lucky to find a teacher that i like very much.
But you know what ? He tell everybody to broad up their horizon and do train elsewhere and to share experiences with others in the group so everybody can learn from it...

There are more shihan around that dont have any problem with training elsewhere to enritch the overall image.
Maybe it's a thing just going on in Europe and not in the US but even so....

 

[DWeidman]

There are more shihan around that dont have any problem with training elsewhere to enritch the overall image.
Maybe it's a thing just going on in Europe and not in the US but even so....

Sorry - I should have been more specific:

Find a single X-kan instructor and stick with them.

How would your instructor feel if you didn't tell him you were training in Muay Thai - and used that as your base art to just put the BJK on top of it?

The original post was about training in the BJK and learning "better" basics in Mr. Manaka's Genbukan. It then morphed into being a ninja spy and not telling either side that you were training with the other guy...

-Daniel

 

[Seattletcj]

How would your instructor feel if you didn't tell him you were training in Muay Thai - and used that as your base art to just put the BJK on top of it?
-Daniel

Why should he care ?

 

[DWeidman]

Why should he care ?

Easy answer:

You are in BJK class. It is considered rude to bring in things like that (especially when training with another student who is paying to learn the BJK).

-Daniel

 

[Shicomm]

Sorry - I should have been more specific:
Find a single X-kan instructor and stick with them.

So if i understand this in the right way you should just stick to your own teacher... and not go training with another teacher even if he/she would be in the same art ?

 

[Doc_Jude]

This is the kind of drivle that makes folks see the Bujinkan as a LARPing cult. I sometimes wish that some people would keep their opinions to themselves (in spite of my love of the First Amendment... I like the Second more, tho)

 

[Seattletcj]

Easy answer:

You are in BJK class. It is considered rude to bring in things like that (especially when training with another student who is paying to learn the BJK).

-Daniel

If you mean practicing Muay Thai in BJK class then, yes that could be a problem.
But, having Muay Thai as your base, and not telling your instructor. I dont see the problem. As long as you are practicing BJK in BJK class.

What about having BJK as your base and training XYZ "on top of it" ?
Should instructor in XYZ care?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

This is the kind of drivle that makes folks see the Bujinkan as a LARPing cult. I sometimes wish that some people would keep their opinions to themselves (in spite of my love of the First Amendment... I like the Second more, tho)

"I'm out to win, ain't no pretending, **** the first amendment, my speech was free the day that my soul descended..."

My experience tells me that very few people in the Bujinkan are less sympathetic and more difficult to get along with than those who view Budo Taijutsu as a complement to their regular training.

 

[DWeidman]

So if i understand this in the right way you should just stick to your own teacher... and not go training with another teacher even if he/she would be in the same art ?

*deep breath*

Did anyone read the original post?

The question is about Cross Training from the BJK to the Genbukan (maybe the Jinenkan) - honestly can't tell because the original poster doesn't know who is running which org.

The conversation then moved to hiding the fact that you are training in another org as well.

If your instructor is ok with you training with other arts (even the JNK and the GBK) - then have at it. The instructor will probably tell you not to advertise it... but whatever.

If you are hiding it... then good luck. If you are caught - you will probably be blacklisted from both orgs.

Your life - your choice.

Anyway.

-Daniel

 

[Doc_Jude]

*deep breath*

Did anyone read the original post?

The question is about Cross Training from the BJK to the Genbukan (maybe the Jinenkan) - honestly can't tell because the original poster doesn't know who is running which org.

He corrected himself shortly after.

As for crosstraining among the three Takamatsuden arts, I say go for it if you want to try! Hatsumi-sensei himself said that to truly get his art we're going to have to steal it. Be a real ninja & get away with it!!!

 

[Highland Ninja]

Stephen wrote:

Also, I'll be in the area in two weeks, maybe I'll see you at training?

Cool! I plan on getting in there for the Friday class on the 21st, but I'm not sure I can squeeze that particular day in (prior committments). If not, then for sure on the 28th (the following Friday). I just got a very encouraging email from James Morganelli, so that's great!

Doc Jude wrote:

Hatsumi-sensei himself said that to truly get his art we're going to have to steal it. Be a real ninja & get away with it!!!

Exactly! :EG:


Hmmm...but if I get caught...
%think%

Seriously though. Just to get back on track, the only reason I asked was because:

1. I thought that if the basics were not being drilled in Bujinkan, I could simply get them from Jinenkan (after I got it straight who was running which organization, ie Manaka at JNK and Tanemura at GBK).

2. It would be a cool training exercise to work in both systems, much like certain exercises some of us undertook during the early Hayes days in the 80's (most of which is better left unsaid!)

:angel:

It's been rendered a moot point though, since I've found an instructor that drills the basics, and I also get to go to Japan. So really there's no need for me to cross train, outside of the idea of an interesting "undercover exercise". But that's rendered moot by the fact that I wouldn't want to offend Soke by going against his wishes.

And bottom line, I'm really the person responsible for drilling the basics into perfection. It's up to me to practice, to ask my teacher for advice and info, and to also get to Japan to see not only Soke, but also the Japanese Shihan so that I make sure I'm getting to where I want to be movement-wise. I'd almost forgotten to think that way. Sure, there are probably people in Bujinkan who are not working on the basics and merely trying to mimic Soke. These are the people that I hear about who won't spend time with the Shihan in Japan for whatever reason. But those who want to really learn to perfect the basics while studying in Bujinkan will look for and find the teachers they need to do so, and I'm the kind of person who'll make sure I get that sort of teacher. Looks like I already have.

I do wish that there were stricter standards in Bujinkan though, because if someone moves to another state or city, it might become very difficult to find a teacher with similar skills and dedication, who will drill the basics.

 

[Devil_Hanzo]

Just busting balls here Daniel but:

The question is about Cross Training from the BJK to the Genbukan (maybe the Jinenkan) - honestly can't tell because the original poster doesn't know who is running which org.

Compliments your prior post of:

The original post was about training in the BJK and learning "better" basics in Mr. Manaka's Genbukan.

:angel:

Just to add to the discussion, yes it is expressly forbidden by Hatsumi to train in the BJK while training in another kan. However, as I understand it Manaka encourages cross-training of all kinds, wherever it is, even amongst the kans, and he openly welcomes any other kan members to train with him.

It's the student's life on the line when it comes down to 'the street', and if the students feel like they want to x-train in BJJ because they don't get the groundwork BJK gives them [hypothetically], they should be able to do so. Agreed that doing it during BJK class [with the exception of freestyle randori] should be prohibited so as to not interfere with other students' training.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Just busting balls here Daniel but:

Compliments your prior post of:

:angel:

Just to add to the discussion, yes it is expressly forbidden by Hatsumi to train in the BJK while training in another kan. However, as I understand it Manaka encourages cross-training of all kinds, wherever it is, even amongst the kans, and he openly welcomes any other kan members to train with him.

It's the student's life on the line when it comes down to 'the street', and if the students feel like they want to x-train in BJJ because they don't get the groundwork BJK gives them [hypothetically], they should be able to do so. Agreed that doing it during BJK class [with the exception of freestyle randori] should be prohibited so as to not interfere with other students' training.

You could do worse than Manaka-sensei... most folks would have a hard time counting up more experienced & preferable instructors on one hand, Hatsumi-sensei included.

Manaka-sensei is one of the original old-school Bujinkan students. He lived the days of the hard-style Bujinkan. From what I understand, he's the most technical of the three fruits of Takamatsu-sensei's labors. And the fact that he, apparently, encourages crosstraining, well, good for his students.

 

[Highland Ninja]

All this brings to mind another question. Has Soke ever explained the reason he doesn't want people to cross train? (Not that he has any obligation to do so). Does that apply to all other martial arts, or just Genbukan and Jinenkan?

I'd be curious to hear why it's so frowned upon.

 

[DWeidman]

From what I understand, he's the most technical of the three fruits of Takamatsu-sensei's labors.

Takamatsu Sensei had one fruit. That fruit had two other fruit. Please don't try to lump them all together.

And the fact that he, apparently, encourages crosstraining, well, good for his students.

He knows that Hatsumi Sensei and Mr. Tanemura both forbid it... so what is there to lose in saying that?

All this brings to mind another question. Has Soke ever explained the reason he doesn't want people to cross train? (Not that he has any obligation to do so). Does that apply to all other martial arts, or just Genbukan and Jinenkan?

I'd be curious to hear why it's so frowned upon.

This is me - speculating. Take it for what it is worth (practically nothing):

I assume it is difficult to deal with more than a single source of truth. If you are training in the JNK - and Manaka Sensei wants you to do it one way - and tells you that is the "right" way to do it... how do you deal with different information when you get to Hatsumi Sensei's class?

Easier to not deal with it at all. Wish the students good luck with their org and let them walk their own path.

Anyway... just me guessing. Again, not worth much.

-Daniel

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

This is me - speculating. Take it for what it is worth (practically nothing):

I assume it is difficult to deal with more than a single source of truth. If you are training in the JNK - and Manaka Sensei wants you to do it one way - and tells you that is the "right" way to do it... how do you deal with different information when you get to Hatsumi Sensei's class?

Easier to not deal with it at all. Wish the students good luck with their org and let them walk their own path.

Anyway... just me guessing. Again, not worth much.

-Daniel

Yet that is probably a pretty safe guess.

 

[newtothe dark]

I remember when i was a child I tried the mommy said daddy said and that was its own confusion. All the years of my training teachers have screamed loyality as one of the main virtues of the arts. Today is our mass marketed world where we can get anything on video or at the corner mall it becomes much harder to not try different things. In my town there are 4 Burger Kings and I can tell you that the burger is not the same at them all. This all means yes we can try different schools but those teaching it dont want you to have the different tastes. This is the way they have tried to maintain purity and control over techniques. This is just my opinion and not worth much and by no means is it meant as an offense to anyone. Disclaimer inserted here