To Doc

[Sigung86]

I thought i wouldn't come back, but... What the Heck! I have been in this gig we call Kenpo since 1971, longer than many of you have been alive. I don't really care too much what any of you think, but you are starting to get on a nerve with your constant picking, badgering, and whining.

GET OVER IT!

Have any of you thought about the bandwidth you are wasting by ranting? The time that you are taking away from doing something positive?

Doc ain't gonna give you any schrift. He's stated his position and there it stands.

The whole world doesn't revolve based on your paradigm; The sun rises and sets on it's own schedule. The birds still sing when they want, and Doc goes his own way and does his own thing the way he feels it was laid before him by SGM Parker.

Those who are in the know of him, know. The rest of you sound like a bunch of biddy hens chasing corn. Or... perhaps more like coyotes howling at the moon. They can't make it go away and you can't make things different.

You are, frankly, starting to sound more afraid than anything else.

I am not a Doctor, nor do I have an MA or MS, but I have a BA, 56 years of living experience, and 43 years, approximately, in martial arts... 34, approximately, of those in Kenpo in it's various incarnations. All that to say this.

His stuff makes sense when you are exposed to it. His model of a school is the one of his choice and knowing the caliber of his students (both in and out of Kenpo) leads me to believe that they are relatively intelligent and able to decide, by being there, what you can not by not being there.

This kind of picayune crap is one of the main reasons I decided to leave Kenpo after such a lengthy tour. Never realized before what a bunch of babies many of the Kenpo people were, and FMA/JKD doesn't have such a great track record either.

If you spent half the time studying and practicing that you do whining and complaining on an anonymous forum, it might be astounding, the personal and perhaps groupthink wisdom you could come up with.

You have successfully crossed over the border and passed into the inanity zone.

 

[rutherford]

But a Ph.D. university president who won't own up to his academic lineage, in this day and age of diploma mills and falsified credentials appearing in the news all the time, sure has some explaining to do, and merits mockery. It's an absurd position to hold.

Nothing merits mockery.

I am hopeful that moderators will start taking a stronger stance on enforcing polite and respectful discourse until it is the expected norm.

You want to mock, there are martial forums entirely devoted to that sort of thing.

 

[eyebeams]

I thought i wouldn't come back, but... What the Heck! I have been in this gig we call Kenpo since 1971, longer than many of you have been alive. I don't really care too much what any of you think, but you are starting to get on a nerve with your constant picking, badgering, and whining.

GET OVER IT!

If this thread is disturbing you, there are other places on the internet you can go to amuse yourself.

Have any of you thought about the bandwidth you are wasting by ranting? The time that you are taking away from doing something positive?

I live in Canada, where bandwidth is in plentiful supply thanks to public sector information infrastructure development. To answer your other concern, this morning I've tackled a couple of variations on Naihanchi, cleaned up my place a bit and written my MP about changes to the marriage law (for those of you following Canadian politics, I'm for the Civil Marriage Act).

Thanks for your concern, but I've got plenty of time. You?

Doc ain't gonna give you any schrift. He's stated his position and there it stands.

I believe I responded to this tactic from a more polite poster. If I was interested in trying to influence him directly, I'd just email him. Public discussion is for open conversation about a topic -- even your attempt to keep people from talking about it. That's what makes online discourse so charming.

The whole world doesn't revolve based on your paradigm; The sun rises and sets on it's own schedule.

Actually, that'd be because of the laws of physics, as discovered by scientists. Most of these scientists have educations you can easily look up since, you see, that's part and parcel of their credibility.

The birds still sing when they want

. . . according to specific behaviours imparted by evolution and biological drives, yes. Talk to an ornithologist from an accredited college for more details.

, and Doc goes his own way and does his own thing the way he feels it was laid before him by SGM Parker.

I'm not privy to Doc's personal feelings and have little evidence that Ed Parker ever developed anything called SL-4. In fact, going by strict standards of evidence, you and I have about the same amount of it: zilch.

That has no bearing on whether or not it works. After all, Bruce Juchnik is supposed to be an incredibly talented martial artist, but there's as much evidence for his subject matter being a part of the Mitose line of transmission as there is for SL-4 being a part of Parker's. It might be the best thing since sliced bread and handswords upside the back of the neck, but that's a topic best addressed elsewhere.

Those who are in the know of him, know.

This is one of the most concise circular statements I've ever read, I'll grant you that.

The rest of you sound like a bunch of biddy hens chasing corn. Or... perhaps more like coyotes howling at the moon. They can't make it go away and you can't make things different.

You are, perhaps, overrating my ambitions. People change their minds by making a choice. When they make an informed choice, they tend to make a good choice. When someone is evasive about information, they inhibit they ability of people to choose wisely.

You are, frankly, starting to sound more afraid than anything else.

Right now, I'm terrified that the server and students' plans at my office will have problems wile I'm on vacation, if you must know. I'm also not terribly fond of hieghts and get absolutely batty if I'm stuck in a canoe for too long.

I am not a Doctor, nor do I have an MA or MS, but I have a BA, 56 years of living experience, and 43 years, approximately, in martial arts... 34, approximately, of those in Kenpo in it's various incarnations. All that to say this.

Good for you. Nevertheless, I don't owe you any more face than I do Doc.

His stuff makes sense when you are exposed to it. His model of a school is the one of his choice and knowing the caliber of his students (both in and out of Kenpo) leads me to believe that they are relatively intelligent and able to decide, by being there, what you can not by not being there.

Again, this is a rather circular statement. There are people who spend years meditating and decide to follow yogic flying, and they earnestly believe that what they're doing makes sense. Nevertheless, until I'm presented with compelling evidence to the contrary, I'm still stubborn enough to think that you ought to believe that yogic flying ain't flying.

If a group of their followers, led by an accredited PhD, produced publically available results demonstrating that they were, in fact, flying, I'd by a bunch of beads and start bouncing in a second.

This kind of picayune crap is one of the main reasons I decided to leave Kenpo after such a lengthy tour. Never realized before what a bunch of babies many of the Kenpo people were, and FMA/JKD doesn't have such a great track record either.

I'm sorry hurt feelings have had such a dramatic effect on your practice. Nevertheless, if you stopped and everyone else kept training, you might want to consider that it was not *their* maturity level that made you stop.

If you spent half the time studying and practicing that you do whining and complaining on an anonymous forum, it might be astounding, the personal and perhaps groupthink wisdom you could come up with.

I've repeated my real name elsewhere. Why is it, by the way, that folks are adamant about how awful anonymity is? Do you have fantasies about beating up somebody who argues with you on the internet, but are frustrated by your inability to find out who they are? Do you want to sue them for injured pride?

You have successfully crossed over the border and passed into the inanity zone.

This has been all very enlightening, but in your next post, I'd like you to cover the part where it's OK for someone to promote themselves based on a PhD and then refuse to reveal where they got it from.

 

[Sigung86]

Very well Sir.

You are in a superior position and I tip my king and forfeit the game, circular logic and all. Meanwhile the sun will still rise and set, the birds will still sing, Doc will go on with his MSU and you will continue to be unmollified and still howling at the moon.
:asian:

 

[eyebeams]

Very well Sir.

You are in a superior position and I tip my king and forfeit the game, circular logic and all. Meanwhile the sun will still rise and set, the birds will still sing, Doc will go on with his MSU and you will continue to be unmollified and still howling at the moon.
:asian:

Is your answer, then, that it's OK for someone to promote themselves based on a PhD they won't provide any credentials for because they really, really want to?

If you just came out and said so, that'd be a coherent position. I'm not sure how defensible it is, but what the hey.

 

[Sigung86]

My absolute last word, Sir #2. I did not say that, and think that it would be foolish to do so. Just as I hallucinate that you are simply saying silly things to bate folks.

It is simply that the credentials you seek have not been provided to you.

And so ...

Please Proceed.

Oh... And have a great Kenpo Day :asian:

 

[Kenpodoc]

One of my most pleasant experiences in college was a course I took in modern art. I woke early every tues and thursday walked to Bryn Mawr and sat down in a class of 20 women plus me. We then proceded to look at pictures of naked women for the next 1 1/2 hours. Sheer relaxed pleasure for a 20 year old male.

Oddly enough the lesson I took from the class was the politics of French art in the 18th and 19th century. Many of the artists I prefered were shunned by the academy and the artists they showered with awards were dull and mundane to my eyes. This said, I tend to look at the product of each university or instructor and generally could care less about the paper. Boards and governing bodies tend to create mediocrity. When I look at martial artists I could care less about red stripes or degrees, I look at what their students do and what they can teach me.

Jeff

 

[Sigung86]

One of my most pleasant experiences in college was a course I took in modern art. I woke early every tues and thursday walked to Bryn Mawr and sat down in a class of 20 women plus me. We then proceded to look at pictures of naked women for the next 1 1/2 hours. Sheer relaxed pleasure for a 20 year old male.

Oddly enough the lesson I took from the class was the politics of French art in the 18th and 19th century. Many of the artists I prefered were shunned by the academy and the artists they showered with awards were dull and mundane to my eyes. This said, I tend to look at the product of each university or instructor and generally could care less about the paper. Boards and governing bodies tend to create mediocrity. When I look at martial artists I could care less about red stripes or degrees, I look at what their students do and what they can teach me.

Jeff

Dang Jeff!

Some people have all the luck and get all the enlightenment! %-}

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Boards and governing bodies tend to create mediocrity. When I look at martial artists I could care less about red stripes or degrees, I look at what their students do and what they can teach me.

As one of the comfortably picky women on the board, I'll restrain myself from commenting on the first part of your post, and instead focus on this part which to me is a terrific piece of wisdom!:asian:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Most of the working scientists I know are women. They tend to be picky. Actual science demands it. For instance, when I was participating in a study to see if laypeople could identify individual turtles by photos of shell patterns, the woman involved didn't just say "seeing is believing." She was very picky about cross-referencing my results with others and separating communication between folks who gave answers to prevent even unconscious cheating. The results of this study are intended to assess the reliability of a new technique for tracking turtle species populations.

Yep -- them picky wimminfolk want to make sure a proposed new technique in their field works. Good.

Or were you under the impression the "women" and "picky" were perjorative?

Reference to a line from the Val Kilmer movie, Thunderheart. Shaman interrupts two characters with his first English words of the movie..."You argue like a couple of old women." This thread reminded me of that line.

Eyebeams: You stated in another thread that nobody at MSU understood the word science (reference a post of yours in the discussion of RCT's as the gold standard for research). Just as an FYI, I've had 8 semesters in research methods, 4 of them at the graduate to post-graduate level. I've also worked as the biostats beyotch on a CONSORT study of the efficacy of treatments for chronic musculotendonous disorders. Do you honestly believe that, somehow, I magically managed to get through this with no understanding of the scientific method?

Most of Doc Chapels students have either Graduate or Post Graduate degrees in fields ranging from criminal and computer sciences, to health related fields and jurisprudence. Without having been there and met either Doc, or any one of several of his students, you might be better off to avoid speaking about things of which you know not. We did not, collectively, abandon or lose our critical thinking capacities just because we started studying SL4. To the contrary, it is Docs professionalism and comprehensive, logically progressive approach on the mat that makes SL4 appealing to the folk who show.

My reference about hunting people, perhaps based on color, for use in practice was a toungue-in-cheek reference to the sort of blindness that extends from broad, sweeping generalizations. Some parts of SL4/MSU don't seem to vibe with your conceptualization of science or how someone with a PhD should represent themselves, so the whole thing must be silly. Some black men steal hubcaps, so they must all be thieves. Get it?

I have never commented on Huk Planas's teaching methods, or the capabilities or mentality of his students. I have never met them.

Doc I know. Bode, Lincoln & Howard I know. I've even been looking forward to meeting Robert & Clyde someday, despite the hsitory of online tensions. Who, again, are you?

Regards,

Dave

 

[Bode]

Bode, you're in too deep. Pull out!

I have been nothing but polite to you despite my inclinations. Arnisador, don't condescend me as your statement does. Comments like this are, as I suspected since the beginning, indications of someone seeking to fan the flames.

I wont attempt to explain my reasoning to you because, once again, you will twist the words out of context to suite your needs of feeling intellectually superior (as evidenced by your incessent demands on this thread). Judging by the total number of posts you have on this forum you have more time than I do for proving your worth as an internet keyboard warrior. Have at it...

 

[kenpo_cory]

You can have all my personal information and look me up if I can come see ya and learn some Kenpo Doc.

Someone took rep points from me for this post. Well just to let ya know, I dont care about my rep points and you can take some more for this post, whoever you are. :2xBird2:

 

[Akashiro Tamaya]

For the record: I am not a kenpoist. But if Ed Parker wants me to call him " The God of Kenpo" I will ! Mr. Ron Chapel is a legitimite Kenpo practioner with verifiable record. He can call himself however he wants I am sure he earned it.

Ah, the I irony of it all is , I go after a 10th Soke grandmaster with unverifiable and rediculous claims and lineage, what do I get ....hmmmm Thread Violation, and I get a lockdown.

Oh well, such as life, Just got to live with it !

 

[arnisador]

You are, frankly, starting to sound more afraid than anything else.

Afraid of...?

His stuff makes sense when you are exposed to it.

That just isn't what's at issue here, though the Dillmanesque theories and the danger of groupthink implied by your statement are certainly warning signs. The question has to do with something other than whether he is a good teacher, or whether he's teaching good stuff.

The Church of the Immaculate Misconception

Well said.

By the way, I'm not anonymous.

 

[eyebeams]

Reference to a line from the Val Kilmer movie, Thunderheart. Shaman interrupts two characters with his first English words of the movie..."You argue like a couple of old women." This thread reminded me of that line.

We aren't in a movie.

Eyebeams: You stated in another thread that nobody at MSU understood the word science (reference a post of yours in the discussion of RCT's as the gold standard for research).

That would be an incorrect interpretation of what I said.

Just as an FYI, I've had 8 semesters in research methods, 4 of them at the graduate to post-graduate level. I've also worked as the biostats beyotch on a CONSORT study of the efficacy of treatments for chronic musculotendonous disorders. Do you honestly believe that, somehow, I magically managed to get through this with no understanding of the scientific method?

No. If we must get personal, I think that you're demonstrating a whopping case of observer bias. Whatever you're getting out of Doc, you like enough to excuse things that you well know would be unacceptable in your academic work.

Most of Doc Chapels students have either Graduate or Post Graduate degrees in fields ranging from criminal and computer sciences, to health related fields and jurisprudence. Without having been there and met either Doc, or any one of several of his students, you might be better off to avoid speaking about things of which you know not. We did not, collectively, abandon or lose our critical thinking capacities just because we started studying SL4. To the contrary, it is Docs professionalism and comprehensive, logically progressive approach on the mat that makes SL4 appealing to the folk who show.

Lots of people have made this argument to support patently ridiculous things. I've provided many examples. There are academics who believe in chi materialization, empty force and yogic flying.

My reference about hunting people, perhaps based on color, for use in practice was a toungue-in-cheek reference to the sort of blindness that extends from broad, sweeping generalizations. Some parts of SL4/MSU don't seem to vibe with your conceptualization of science or how someone with a PhD should represent themselves, so the whole thing must be silly. Some black men steal hubcaps, so they must all be thieves. Get it?

Given the standards by which you interpreted that what I was saying to you was an accusation of ignorance, I wonder if, conversely, you're making an incredibly distasteful personal attack now?

Yes, it represents my conceptualization of how someone with a PhD sould represent themselves. The handy thing is that this conceptualization happens to be shared with every single legitimate academic institution.

I have never commented on Huk Planas's teaching methods, or the capabilities or mentality of his students. I have never met them.

Does he hand out degrees at Huk Planas University and claim a doctorate which he won't discuss?

As I've said several times, Doc's material is not realy an issue in of itself how can it be? Neither he nor any of his students will say much of sunstance about it aside from it being terribly advanced and not amenable to talking about). MSU has taken upon itself an academic veneer which is must justify t be taken seriously by anyone outside of folks in the EPAK ranks structure, and should be viewed with skepticism by folks inside of it.

Doc I know. Bode, Lincoln & Howard I know. I've even been looking forward to meeting Robert & Clyde someday, despite the hsitory of online tensions. Who, again, are you?

Just some dude you don't like for asking pertinent questions. I've repeated my name elsewhere.

 

[dubljay]

That would be an incorrect interpretation of what I said.


MSU has taken upon itself an academic veneer which is must justify t be taken seriously by anyone outside of folks in the EPAK ranks structure, and should be viewed with skepticism by folks inside of it.

1) Interpretation is not what you intend to say it is what others think you say/mean. It doesn't matter if you intend one thing... if people think you mean something else then it is up to you to clarify. Most of the posts I have read by you contain an accusational, condecending, or plain agressive tone when there is no call for one. Just my presective though.

2) How is anything justified in martial arts? Though application and its effectiveness. Argue that what Mr. Chape'l teaches is not effective? Don't give me some BS answer about how it doesn's sound effective. If you haven't tried it DON'T KNOCK IT. There is no standard for accredidation for a Martial arts cericulum... there have been many threads on this topic. I'll find some when I get some time to do a thurough search. If you wish, try seaching the forum for something like "government regulation of martial arts" see what pops up.
The model Mr. Chape'l has chosen to teach his martial art is the way he wishes to do it. How is giving a title any different than giving a belt? As for a Ph.D he has in academia... how in any way is that related to martial arts? If his Ph.D in what ever field is in has no standing in his business as a MA instructor then it is personal business. Unles you are with some professional/government organization that pretains to the field which Mr. Chape'l has his Ph.D in then it is of no concern to you.

Just my opinion and I could be wrong.

-Josh

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Interesting. Using class inclusion/exclusion & altercasting to create a straw man one can ride straight down a slippery slope. I'll have to give it a shot sometime soon.

Regards,

D.

 

[eyebeams]

Interesting. Using class inclusion/exclusion & altercasting to create a straw man one can ride straight down a slippery slope. I'll have to give it a shot sometime soon.

Regards,

D.

I find it helps to actually respond by point instead of general snipping. It gives it more of the hallmarks of a legitimate argument.

 

[Michael Billings]

Just to get us back on topic the original question was:

:asian: To Doc
Doc,

It is always a pleasure to correspond with and learn from a noted master. I was wondering, from what institution did you recieve your Ph.D in Anatomical Physics?

Salute:asian:,
Camilyon

No more, no less. How it has expanded into the gaseous state on it's own say a lot for some of the controversy in Kenpo overall, as well as Doc's interpretation and teaching paradigm.

He is unwilling to answer the question ... ok, not much we can do about that. The rest of the posts are inflammatory, insulting, argumentative, and somewhat arrogant at times.

If I can distill the arguement down, some venture that if you are not willing to provide your credentials (academic or martial, but primarily academic), don't use them to represent or market your art.

OK, so that is one opinion, there are always others.

-Michael

 

[eyebeams]

1) Interpretation is not what you intend to say it is what others think you say/mean. It doesn't matter if you intend one thing... if people think you mean something else then it is up to you to clarify. Most of the posts I have read by you contain an accusational, condecending, or plain agressive tone when there is no call for one. Just my presective though.

People keep saying this without actually quoting text that would indicate what they found aggressive or condescending. Do my multiple menytions that Chapel's stuff might work count as a nasty, nasty thing to say?

2) How is anything justified in martial arts? Though application and its effectiveness.

Actually, this discussion is about academic standards vis a vis a person and institution that freely chose to apply them.

Argue that what Mr. Chape'l teaches is not effective? Don't give me some BS answer about how it doesn's sound effective. If you haven't tried it DON'T KNOCK IT. There is no standard for accredidation for a Martial arts cericulum... there have been many threads on this topic.

Special sounds and imaginary circuits in the human body still don't sound like legitimate theories, but that's not the point. The point is that there are internationally recognized standards and customs around academic institutions and degrees. Non-accredited examples of such are associated with fraud and are worthless in a mainstream academic context. MSU doesn't take pains to clarify that this is a special way of teaching martial arts. If Doc's degree is unaccredited, he doesn't say so.

I'll find some when I get some time to do a thurough search. If you wish, try seaching the forum for something like "government regulation of martial arts" see what pops up.

This really has to do with the regulations of accredited colleges and universities, not martial arts teaching methods.

The model Mr. Chape'l has chosen to teach his martial art is the way he wishes to do it. How is giving a title any different than giving a belt? As for a Ph.D he has in academia... how in any way is that related to martial arts? If his Ph.D in what ever field is in has no standing in his business as a MA instructor then it is personal business. Unles you are with some professional/government organization that pretains to the field which Mr. Chape'l has his Ph.D in then it is of no concern to you.

Actually, Doc specifically mentions his degree in MSU's webpage as part of his promotional bio. If it had nothing to do with his martial arts, it wouldn't be relevant.