To Doc

[bignick]

Ah...

The joy of being a nobody....It's kinda nice nobody cares who I am...

Mr. Chapel has a legitimate right to not disclose his own information, to any extent he chooses. At the same time, Arnisador asked a very simple question. Doc didn't want to answer and not a whole lot can be done. But from an outsider's perspective, merely looking at this thread and nothing else it does appear that Doc is hiding something.

I think this whole thing has been blown out of proportion, honestly, does it seem a little suspicious when someone doesn't reveal information that can prove/disprove a claim they have made? Yes. Is someone obligated to reveal their information, even if it is supposedly public information? No. I think the point has been made in regards to the questions about Doc's degree and he refuses, per his choice, to answer questions about it. Nitpicking the same points over and over again aren't going to really get this thread anywhere else.

Why can't everything go back to the way it was before where everyone would just pick on us Korean stylists.....Hey look at our flashy, impractical kicks!...What's that over there? Yep, it's a 8 year old black belt...

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I can't blame Doc for keeping his stuff to himself. I've seen the UCLA MBA, and know the PhD. Everytime he has taken a stance and put himself on the line, some buncha schmucks have been chomping at the bit to take him down a notch. Why? One of the most outspoken, yet silent, kenpo seniors. Abrasive MoFo who calls crap what he sees as crap, in a community where the others are out for cash, but are unwilling to point such a finger/accusation lest it be turned back on them. He doesn't rely on kenpo for a living, so is more than willing to call BS on those who do. He is one of the few who knows where the kenpo skeletons are buried (while freely admitting to his own), and the only real way for people he has poop on to fight back, is to try to plaster more mud on Doc so they look cleaner than they are.

He mentioned to me months ago, as we looked at the diploma and discussed some of the ramifications of his thesis, that he was jumped on kenponet for this very thing. He reiterated the fact that the "people in the know" who were giving him crap also claimed to know him, but didn't even know his real first name. Yet, they claimed providence over his education. I applaud his choice to keep all y'all guessing and pissing, and hope he continues to do so ad infinitum. I only recently learnt his real first name, and out of respect for his wishes, will take it to my grave. The rub? Just like the PhD, he actually has one...but figures it's nobody's business.

If the sun sets without you guys watching, is it still hanging in the sky above your heads? Or maybe it only sets if one of y'all are there to see it. I've seen it set: My lots with Doc.

Regards,

Dave...also a Doctor (twice over), and also not sharing with you where I got them from, just to irritate you and piss you off.

 

[Michael Billings]

Yes, and that's a great thing. I wish we had more standardization of language in the FMA. We can hardly discuss techniques across, it sometimes seems!

Well, there are frauds and there are frauds. He may well be skilled as a kenpoist--I have no reason to doubt it--but if he is misleading the public, that's bad. As to it not being part of his martial art, have you read through his web pages? He claims to not only be a Ph.D., but that his school is authorized to grant the Ph.D. degree. Please, investigate the site:
http://www.maxpages.com/edparkerskenpo

Note that [font=times roman,times][size=+2]"Integrity Through Excellence." [/size][/font]is boldly proclaimed there. Note the frequent claims to [size=+1]AN EDUCATIONAL APPROACH and an [/size][size=+1]EDUCATIONALLY STRUCTURED PROGRESSIVE SYSTEM. [/size]There are tests and certifications. Note that it's an "ON CAMPUS" study facility. How about this:


(There is no d. in the original.) Note the Dr Ron Chapel link. What does it say there? Well, here are some excerpts:

[size=+1]--the University emphasizes the educational aspect of Kenpo, endeavoring to make the "school" function as a college university
--[/size][size=+1] Functioning as the parent of an educational institution, the Ed Parker's Institute, requires teacher certifications over and above belt rankings of its University instructors.
--[/size][size=+1]Only the University Board of Credentials grants rank and degrees, as any other academic institution.
--[/size][size=+1]the University also requires completion of specific Course work curriculum, and awards degrees accordingly. [/size]
-[size=+1]Ron Chapél has not only earned his Ph.D. in Anatomical Physics, but has lectured and taught credit courses on college campuses, as well.[/size]
--[size=+1]Ron Chapél has continuously shown his teachings and interpretations to be a superior curriculum.[/size]

Under "Credential Instructors" (is this different from cedentialed instructors?) we have:
[size=+2]Ron Chap'el, Ph.D.

Ryan Angell, M.A.

Rodrigo Perez, M.A.[/size]

(The list continues). Then:

[size=+2]All instructors have a diploma issued by this Institution AND a signed and NOTARIZED Teaching Credential. [/size]

Some degrees seem to be mischaracterized as emeritus, which usually means retired. In a thread here he described some of the instructors as deans:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16739&page=1&pp=15

That thread is interesting reading for this discussion anyway.

How much more clear can it be that the claimed Ph.D. is relevant to his martial art and its teaching? It seems quite obvious to me. He's granting the Ph.D. to martial arts students...he needs one himself. Mr. Billings, do you really feel there's no connection at all between the claimed Ph.D. and what goes on with SL-4 at MSU?

I have been put in an awkward position here and have to recuse myself as a Moderator to reply.

Geez Arni, there is no need to yell. So he picked a model and has incorporated what he has decided as best for his structure. Trust me, the man ain't makin' a living off of his Kenpo.

I do not feel like I need to defend Doc or SL-4, which I have no experience with save testing is methods as described on this forum. I will not defend he, or his model. He was/is Edmund Parker, Jr.'s teacher (one among many probably, but still the one that saw him through to black), and he is one of the original 7 Seniors, that I consider the true Seniors.

Market as you will, is it any more artificial than any other school, maybe somewhat, but I have seen similar models set up for TKD, Combat Hapkido, and Jui-Jitsu. Not to mention the Chinese systems requiring you to learn to heal as well as hurt. Japanese also follow this to some extent with bone setting, or shiatsu, as part of the curriculum.

I don't know, I just think it is silly. Call him Ron (if invited), call him Doc, call him Mr. Chapel. Get rid of the entire MSU thing, although Kenpo is already structured that way as Mr. Parker advanced degrees became Professors or Masters. You don't like his marketing, fine. I could say the same of many others, much less qualified than Mr. Chapel. He has earned his stripes, and how and in what paradigm he chooses to market it are completely up to him.

Who ever would have thought JKD guys wearing shorts and t-shirts would ever be "guru's". Pick a model - that was not JKD's ... until it was.

-Michael

 

[eyebeams]

Dave...also a Doctor (twice over), and also not sharing with you where I got them from, just to irritate you and piss you off.

Tell me: If you were to be practicing in a field where your PhDs were applicable (a "university" no less), would you also refuse to tell anybody where you got them from? Would you refuse to let the origins of your degrees get printed in the course calendar?

Every single accredited university makes instructors' credentials easy to track by listed type and origin in the faculty listings themselves or presenting them for the asking at a moment's notice.

 

[KenpoDave]

Every martial arts system that hands out black belts has a founder. The founder typically receives his accredidation from peers or seniors in similar disciplines.

The fact that one can go to a University and work towards a Ph.D in Anatomy or Physics is because at some time, somebody was granted the 1st Ph.D in those disciplines from people with Ph.Ds in something else.

Perhaps Ron Chape'l is the first. Perhaps the University Model that he has chosen to follow for his school is a model that will itself be followed.

Ed Parker was not granted a 10th degree in American Kenpo by other 10th degrees in American Kenpo. His degree was recognized and accepted by others of similar disciplines. Bruce Lee's black belt was in what art?

Perhaps Doc won't divulge the information requested because of threads just like this. Perhaps you won't find Doc's program on any curriculum of any accredited University or College...yet. But somebody has to be the first.

Whether I agree or disagree with Doc day to day, I certainly respect his knowledge, the time he has put into acquiring it, and his vision. I'll likely never even meet him. But, I'll call him Doc, and I'll listen to what he says. :asian:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Tell me: If you were to be practicing in a field where your PhDs were applicable (a "university" no less), would you also refuse to tell anybody where you got them from? ...

If it would irritate the group of picky women who cause flack on this forum, absolutely.

D.

 

[arnisador]

Geez Arni, there is no need to yell.

Heh, sorry about that. I haven't investigated how to turn off this "smart copying" that came along in my absence. (I keep meaning to ask Kaith about it.) It was easier to accept the original mark-ups than to try to reformat it, as I found out after reformatting a few things. Yeah, it looks ugly to me too. But, I ask again: Do you still feel the Ph.D. is irrelevant to his Kenpo?

Get rid of the entire MSU thing

Well, not a bad idea.

We're in the right forum for this issue, if I'm not mistaken, so I see no reason why we can't discuss it. Calling the ranks at MSU B.S./M.S./Ph.D. degrees is inappropriate. Is it worth getting worked up about? Hey, I'm a FMA guy and so it's all Kenpo to me. But is it wrong? Yes.

Does Mr. Chape'l have a legitimate Ph.D.? I don't know. Should he back up his claim that he does, or drop the claim? Yes, obviously.

 

[arnisador]

I only recently learnt his real first name, and out of respect for his wishes, will take it to my grave.

Is he concerned that if people knew it, they could use it to steal his soul?

Really, it just sounds silly. So, he likes to be secretive...except about being a Ph.D., so he can be called doctor? Why not keep that secret too?

The rub? Just like the PhD, he actually has one...but figures it's nobody's business.

That's weird, but whatever. But can it really be nobody's business when he heads an apparent degree-granting university?

Doctorates just aren't given in secret ceremonies. There are no Double Secret Probation Ninja Doctorates handed down on scrolls by monks and co-signed by Dr. Ashida Kim and Dr. Haha Lung. That isn't how it works.

Dave...also a Doctor (twice over), and also not sharing with you where I got them from, just to irritate you and piss you off.

But you don't head a university, do you?

 

[Bode]

(Emphasis added.) Categorically, most effective, tested, unquestionable, correct mechanisms...these are not weak claims. Most effective is indeed a categorical claim.

Do you, as promised, concede my point?

I am only entertaining this because I said I would conced, if you found proof.

Arnisador, you brought this up in regards to MSU claims of superiority. Well, sorry, I don't concede. What was posted is very different than saying, "SL4 is far superior to other arts."
No, the statements above are not weak, but very different than saying "SL4" is superior. That claim makes us sound more like people hellbent on claiming every other art sucks compared to ours. That is not the case.

Saying, "Categorically, most effective, tested, unquestionable, correct mechanisms..." is more akin to saying, "There are certain fundamentals of human anatomy that can be used to unquestionably strengthen a block or punch." It hardly means that others are innefective, which is how you choose to portray MSU by saying we claim "superiority."

Rehashing the same points, as stated by others, will get you nowhere and does nothing to further any knowledge on this forum. You've stated your beliefs, so be it...

 

[eyebeams]

If it would irritate the group of picky women who cause flack on this forum, absolutely.

D.

Most of the working scientists I know are women. They tend to be picky. Actual science demands it. For instance, when I was participating in a study to see if laypeople could identify individual turtles by photos of shell patterns, the woman involved didn't just say "seeing is believing." She was very picky about cross-referencing my results with others and separating communication between folks who gave answers to prevent even unconscious cheating. The results of this study are intended to assess the reliability of a new technique for tracking turtle species populations.

Yep -- them picky wimminfolk want to make sure a proposed new technique in their field works. Good.

Or were you under the impression the "women" and "picky" were perjorative?

 

[Steamboat]

Tell me: If you were to be practicing in a field where your PhDs were applicable (a "university" no less), would you also refuse to tell anybody where you got them from? Would you refuse to let the origins of your degrees get printed in the course calendar?

Every single accredited university makes instructors' credentials easy to track by listed type and origin in the faculty listings themselves or presenting them for the asking at a moment's notice.

Eyebeams I have read most of your posts, many of them are either direct or indirect challenges to Doc, his methodology, and his credentials. Tring to bait him into some sort of exchange. Every position you have voiced was very well spoken and thought out but you haven't grasped one important thing.

He doesn't care if you or anybody else believe in his abilitys, methods, teaching style, school structure ect... It just doesn't matter to him. And he is not about to prove himself to you or any of us. I believe the only person he cared about proving himself to died years ago.

He does care about his students, and passing along what HE was taught by SGM Parker. The man doesn't need to care about your opinion and certainly not Arnis Guro Leader's opinion. He also doesn't need your approval in any shape or form. He has been practicing Kenpo for over 40 years. I wonder have you been alive that long? I have not so I will go back to watching silently and hoping that he will still post here after the relentless barage of attacks..


(edit for spelling at Guro Leader's request)

 

[eyebeams]

Who ever would have thought JKD guys wearing shorts and t-shirts would ever be "guru's". Pick a model - that was not JKD's ... until it was.

-Michael

I was under the impression that guru/o ranking was strictly an FMA thing, but a common title among JKD practitioners because so many of them also study FMAs to an advanced level.

 

[Bode]

It occured to me that when asked about scientific proof or to at least give scientific reasoning why something works I directed some people to Dr. Crouch. (Kembudo-Kai Kempoka)
Dr. Crouch has been kind enough to give his analysis, from his unique perspective, time and time again. Half of this discussion, which is on another thread, could have ended had a few people PM'd Dr. Crouch. That never happend, which continually leads me to believe this is more of a personal attack than knowledge seeking.
Had someone asked Dr. Crouch where he obtained his degrees and where he practices before this all went down, I am sure he would have offered it up. As Dr. Chapel may have if someone would have contacted him in private.
Oh well...

 

[shesulsa]

If it would irritate the group of picky women who cause flack on this forum, absolutely.

D.

Could you specify your intent to this post, please?

 

[arnisador]

To eyebeams, that sounds like sound protocol! Communication between study particpants is definitely one of the very relevant concerns if one were to test SL-4 vs. classical Kenpo (for want of a better term) using SL-4 adherents.

And, I see the rebuke that the unflattering comparison to women is inappropriate, and agree.

Arnis Guru Leader

Guro, if you please, but Jeff is fine.

As to JKD instructor titles, they seem to run the gamut.

Bode, you're in too deep. Pull out!

Had someone asked Dr. Crouch where he obtained his degrees and where he practices before this all went down, I am sure he would have offered it up.

Does anyone doubt that he's a chiropractor? He mentioned having another doctorate--I don't know what that is in. I don't think it's relevant. He's not claiming to head a university and award degrees. This is a bit of a red herring, no?

As Dr. Chapel may have if someone would have contacted him in private.

My understanding is that others have tried and failed. That's OK. By the way, he's most welcome to contact me if he feels that would help. I would respect a request for confidentiality.

But a Ph.D. university president who won't own up to his academic lineage, in this day and age of diploma mills and falsified credentials appearing in the news all the time, sure has some explaining to do, and merits mockery. It's an absurd position to hold.

 

[eyebeams]

Eyebeams I have read most of your posts, many of them are either direct or indirect challenges to Doc, his methodology, and his credentials. Tring to bait him into some sort of exchange. Every position you have voiced was very well spoken and thought out but you haven't grasped one important thing.

He doesn't care if you or anybody else believe in his abilitys, methods, teaching style, school structure ect... It just doesn't matter to him. And he is not about to prove himself to you or any of us. I believe the only person he cared about proving himself to died years ago.

Aside from that fact that this doesn't make my concerns any less relevant, there is an obvious group he ought to "prove" himself to: The folks shelling out for his appearances, seminars and "university." Leaving aside the lineage and the material, Doc is somebody selling something.

The point of a forum discusion is rarely to engage one specific individual. It's to shed light on relevant issues and points for discussion. The point? In my case, it's twofold:

1) Caveat emptor. Is there compelling evidence that his claims are compatible with what a student wants? If they want a degree in the martial arts, can he actually offer it? If they want instruction from an accredited PHD in a relevant field, can he actually provide it? If they want to learn an approach to kenpo that Ed Parker Sr. formulated toward the end of his life, is he giving it to them?

2) I think that secretive attitudes and neologisms are stifling real developments in the martial arts. One of my personal issues is the way pressure point techniques have degenerated because of the kind of culture evident in stuff from Chapel and George Dillman. This is actually a step back from tradition. For instance, the McCarthy Bubishi includes open skepticism about the nature of certain techniques. Some of these ae later interjections, but some (such as techniques predicated on the time of day) are greeted with caution in the native text itself.

Now, both Dillman and Doc have advocated things like sounds, light touch KOs and imaginary energetic systems as actual, rather than metaphorical concepts. Is it really in the best interests of the martial arts community to let extraordinary claims like these go untested outside of a suggestible, closed group?

I'm not even saying this as a dyed in the wool skeptic. I've seen one of my own instructors throw someone without apparent body contact in the middle of free sparring and have seen someone physically react (stopped and dropped) in response to a kiai. I've used a bandanna to disarm somebody with a nunchaku.

Despite this, in no case would I trust my own anecdotal experience and extend this to a teachable technique. I would not even recommend that you believe me. The above scenarios could be explained with expert/lucky positioning and psychology applied at just the right time.

It's a *good* thing for martial arts to leave a "4th" corner of possibilities that you might not normally accept as reliable, plausible techniques, so you can seize exceptional opportunities. But in all cases, this must be separated from tested, reliable applications that have a sound sceintific basis.

I would be hapy to find out that reliable antigrappling and light-touch knockouts existed. I would be happy to find out that the metaphors of Chinese medicine could have an effect on human anatomy. But that would be proven to me through the application of real science.

What I'm seeing instead are debatable claims that have actually served to lower and restrict the level of inquiry and knowledge, because their proponents will not apply basic scientific method or in some cases, even come clean with their claimed qualifications.

He does care about his students, and passing along what HE was taught by SGM Parker.

Allegedly, yes.

The man doesn't need to care about your opinion and certainly not Arnis Guru Leader's opinion. He also doesn't need your approval in any shape or form. He has been practicing Kenpo for over 40 years. I wonder have you been alive that long? I have not so I will go back to watching silently and hoping that he will still post here after the relentless barage of attacks..

A community where people are categorically (rather than provisionally) told not to question elders, and where even asking a question is characterized as an "attack," is not a community that will improve upon the techniques they have learned.

The question is: Would you tolerate that state of affairs from anything but a martial art?

 

[Goldendragon7]

Actually, I'd rather like to know what specifically is in the Pacific Ocean that when boats left Korea in the 70's with many 1st and 2nd degrees aboard...... they magically became "masters, trained all the "Rocks", became champions of tournaments that no one ever heard of and many numerous other claims.... " when they hit the west coast! I want to take that trip!!! ;=)

(always has been buggin' me) LOL :btg::erg:

 

[eyebeams]

Actually, I'd rather like to know what specifically is in the Pacific Ocean that when boats left Korea in the 70's with many 1st and 2nd degrees aboard...... they magically became "masters, trained all the "Rocks", became champions of tournaments that no one ever heard of and many numerous other claims.... " when they hit the west coast! I want to take that trip!!! ;=)

(always has been buggin' me) LOL :btg::erg:

That kind of stuff has never been a big deal for me. It looks like martial arts have gone through a "pioneering" phase in many places, where ranking was shaky and schools came and went based on the instructors' abilities. Sometimes the solidifying of these schools into lineages is good; sometimes it isn't.

In Canada, I can think of the case of Olaf Simon, who started out teaching karate, added some kenpo and, by accounts from that period, was actually pretty good. Then he started talking about a secret kung fu lineage and adding formalized grading to his school, and it want downhill from there.

With Bruce Lee and JKD, I think that the mess surrounding his legacy has actually helped it progress.

Me, I started in an art with a known lineage of two people, and I've moved on to one with set lineages in several Chinese martial arts. Each has its benefits.

 

[Steamboat]

I don't believe that I categorically said anything other than that he doesn't have to answer you, continue to ask all the questions you like. You are quite well spoken and there are many statements you make that I agree with.

What I did say (at least I tried to) was that he will not give you what you are looking for (I hope this isn't offensive to anyone) because he doesn't OWE anything to this internet forum.

His students seem to be educated adults who are free to learn from him or not. I think they are in a better position to judge the merits of SL4 than anyone else. They seem quite content.

I to am not a fan of secrets but I am very much a fan of privacy. Judgeing from the posts of Dr. Chapel's friends and students he isn't keeping a lot of secrets from them though he's not posting them on this forum.

Which is why someday I will make it a point to travel to the MSU and ask very nicely if I may train with them. Then I will see and feel for myself what SL4 is really all about. Maybe you could join me instead of continueing this fruitless effort? Then you could post whatever you wished because you would have "been there done that", or do you not trust your own judgement?


Which leads me back to what I said earlier...all that is occouring at this point is alot of what appear to me to be attacks. (if that stills seems harsh or unmerited then I appologize) What I also tried to say is that personaly I respect him very much. I also hoped that at some point this would end. Which apparently it will not.


sorry about the grammer and spelling neither are my strongpoints

 

[eyebeams]

I don't believe that I categorically said anything other than that he doesn't have to answer you, continue to ask all the questions you like. You are quite well spoken and there are many statements you make that I agree with.

I never said anything otherwise, and thank you, with one exception:

When someone promotes themselves based on their education it is ethically incumbent on them to provide a background for that education. If Doc didn't draw any connection between his PhD and his martial arts teaching, he could print in from his PC and it wouldn't be ethically bound to tell anybody. But he does.

What I did say (at least I tried to) was that he will not give you what you are looking for (I hope this isn't offensive to anyone) because he doesn't OWE anything to this internet forum.

He has an ethical obligation to provide information on his qualifications. Nothing can *make* him do this, but that doesn't make it at all ethically ambiguous.

His students seem to be educated adults who are free to learn from him or not. I think they are in a better position to judge the merits of SL4 than anyone else. They seem quite content.

Unfortunately, this isn't necessarily the case. Are Yellow Bamboo's students the ones best suited to judge whether their claims that they can repluse people with Qi from dozens of feet away accurate? Are Sai Baba's followers the best ones to judge claims that he can materialize objects out of thin air?

I to am not a fan of secrets but I am very much a fan of privacy. Judgeing from the posts of Dr. Chapel's friends and students he isn't keeping a lot of secrets from them though he's not posting them on this forum.

Secrets in of themselves are not such a big deal. Public assertions that are met with secrecy when questioned . . . that's another thing entirely.

Which is why someday I will make it a point to travel to the MSU and ask very nicely if I may train with them. Then I will see and feel for myself what SL4 is really all about. Maybe you could join me instead of continueing this fruitless effort? Then you could post whatever you wished because you would have "been there done that", or do you not trust your own judgement?

It would depend entirely on the "university's" screening process, wouldn't it? And even then, feeling is *not* believing.

Which leads me back to what I said earlier...all that is occouring at this point is alot of what appear to me to be attacks. (if that stills seems harsh or unmerited then I appologize) What I also tried to say is that personaly I respect him very much. I also hoped that at some point this would end. Which apparently it will not.

sorry about the grammer and spelling neither are my strongpoints

I'm not an EPAK guy, so I'm not really required to give face to Doc (and that is a subtext throughout these threads, really; I think some people are annoyed that he is not being given the treatment to which he has become accustimed from within his own lineage). I have no idea whether his stuff works the way it's been described, but I'm as skeptical as my normal critical faculties urge me to -- which isn't as much as you might think, but doesn't mean second hand anecdotes do it, either. I have a general respect for EPAK and have said so in the past.

The only thing you might call an "attack" is the idea that someone who promotes themselves as a PhD ought to own up to where it comes from. I've observed that if people don't discuss their qualifications openly, someone discusses it for them later -- and it's much less flattering.