To Doc

[Fastmover]

Question.......

Is our lineage in education important? This question would apply to a academic as well as martial arts education?

In my opinion it shouldnt be a big deal to discuss educational lineage....am I missing something?

Ask anyone who trained with Ed Parker where they received their training and who promoted them to black belt. No problem saying Ed Parker because lineage helps establish credibility. I think an academtic institution provides the same thing.

Maybe I am wrong?????

Thoughts?

 

[Bode]

What would you think of someone who claims to have a medical degree but won't say from what school it was obtained?

This is very different. Asking a doctor where he got his degree because you are seeking medical treatment is akin to me asking Doc how a muscle works. Which is not the knowledge I seek from him. Now, if Doc claimed he had a PhD in American Kenpo I would want to know more.

That may be the case, but why then the need to make repeated references to it (accredited or otherwise) in an attempt to justify your knowledge and background to others?

I didn't know he did. I have never heard him say, "Believe me because I have a PhD." His students started calling him Doc, not the other way around.

Really?? Integrity is integrity, you don't get to pick and choose. Situational ethics?

Does integrity matter to me? Yes, absolutely. Even if Doc had lied about everything, which is an absurd notion used to simply illustrate a point, I would not trust him as much. True. However, given the information to be gained I would put aside my differences and learn from him in hopes that someday I could pass on the information. To me the info is just too valuable to pass up.

From Mr. Chapel's bio on his website: "...Ron Chapel has continuously shown his teachings and interpretations to be a superior curriculum." How would you read that?

I would read that as a flattering bio written by someone else. I know, I know, but "he put it on his page." To me that is very easy to do when someone is writing a kind article about you. I do it all the time when I send out my resume. It's called "references."

 

[Kenpodoc]

This is tepid support...he knows his Kenpo, so who cares whether he has the credentials claimed? (If only the people going after Maung Gyi of Bando felt the same way!)

Personally I wouldn't attack Maung Gyi as he is technically very proficient.

What would you think of someone who claims to have a medical degree but won't say from what school it was obtained?

I wouldn't go to them as a physician but I might choose them as a martial arts instructor. I find that very talented people are frequently eccentric, but that doesn't take away from the value of what they are talented at.

Some degrees are (effectively) a prerequisite to obtaining licensing...try becoming a lawyer without a law degree. (I think it can still be done in Vermont, but it's a much longer process.) No one is questioning whether or not he can perform, or teach...I have no direct knowledge of that. But how much behaviour shall that excuse?

Doc doesn't claim his doctorate as the basis for his Martial arts skill and knowlege. For me the details of his doctorate are unimportant.

To look at this from a medical standpoint the question is - Would you rather go to a doctor who graduated in the top of his class from Harvard or someone who graduated from Guadalahara, Mexico. The answer is that it depends. I'd rather go to the better doctor and the origen of their degree will not tell you the whole story. The Harvard doc might be a sleazy money hungry lazy sob who's papa bought him his degree. The Guad grad might be a poor driven student born in the projects of Detroit who provides the best care in the state. I maintain that once you know a man (or woman) degrees mean nothing in and of themselves (except as a licensing requirement.)

I've not met Doc Chapel but the martial arts information he has shared has helped me. I personally don't care about the source of his degree but respect him for what he has shared with me. I do not understand why so many choose to attack him as personally as this line of response has been taken.

Respectfully,
Jeff :asian:

 

[Sigung86]

Not being a Kenpoist anymore... I feel relatively safe in commenting here, for better or worse.

there are so many things that are wrong in Kenpo that is seems silly to be hitting on a man who has a Doctorate, but chooses not to play by your rules.

You have a man who decided to call himself the Great GrandMaster of Kenpo and then have it validated by a person who isn't even Kenpo, to all intent and purpose. No one says squat.

You have people giving each other organizational/political 10th degree Black Belts and creating organizations on the fly. No one says squat.

Rather than looking into what people are saying or doing, you find it much easier to badmouth the Hell out of each other.

You have folks who can drop someone out of a family tree and history, without explanation, much as happened to me, without answering for those kiinds of actions... No real biggie, I guess, his family, his tree, his version of the "accurate" truth.

You even have one branch who pays homage to a pimp/murderer, and if they are to be believed, are spending untold numbers of dollars and man hours working hard to validate that he is something that he more than likely really wasn't.

There are some people who believe that Parker was never a legitimate Black Belt to begin with....

The brouhaha goes on and on.

And so, the list goes on and on ...

His name to me is "Doc", has been since the very first time we ever talked. Always will be. I am fortunate to call the man friend. The interesting thing was, and perhaps still is, that I didn't get started by being accusatory, jumping down someone's throat, or using my superior intellect to try and edge someone into a corner who doesn't want to be in that corner. Kind of interesting what one can accomplish when one doesn't jump out making inuendos, dogging, or harassing with intent. Being still and listening has much to offer, on occasion.

I suspect that Arnie, and ... er ... Dark Lord (I know him too), have probably not been all that friendly in their inquiries. Has anyone sent an email that wasn't mean spirited? Or ... Are you simply banging away on a public forum.

No offense intended Clyde, but you have a reputation for better or worse.

There is a general rule in communication that says, "If you are not getting the results you expect, perhaps you ought to change your method of communication".... Just a thought.

having said that, I will now go back to where I came from. It is a cleaner atmosphere where people are working on improving themselves and not trying to belittle everyone else involved in some way shape or form.

For better or worse... Doc, I salute you and respect the way you keep on keeping on in spite of the Bull Da-Da, and will always call you friend to your face, and behind your back. But... That and a buck will get you a cup of coffee at Denny's.

Take care and ...

Non illigitimi carborundum

Dan

 

[Thunderbolt]

Because Doc claims to have a PH.D in "anatomical physics", can I read your thesis in this field of study.?

If you couldn't defend your thesis in front of a panel in your legit *university* as a PHD candidate, I definitely want to know how you received your PHD diploma.

I'm not here to question your kenpo skills; i simply have 1 question about your PHD in "anatomical physics".

As far as i'm concerned, having a degree from an institution is different from having a BB from MA's school UNLESS your PHD in "anatomical physics" is a physical education degree.

Looks folks, founder of AK didn't have any degree in "Physic". If you read his infinite insight volume 1-5 books, you can definitely see a lot of "physic" and "anatomical" words mentioned in his books.

Go figure.!
thank you

 

[Fastmover]

I would like to offer this. Sometimes in print it is difficult to judge an individual. Jason Bugg has a very cool web site that has 5 Videos of Mr. Chapel moving, here is a link and use it to judge for yourself:

http://www.ikenpo.com/at_the_movies.html

Take Care

 

[Thunderbolt]

I would like to offer this. Sometimes in print it is difficult to judge an individual. Jason Bugg has a very cool web site that has 5 Videos of Mr. Chapel moving, here is a link and use it to judge for yourself:

http://www.ikenpo.com/at_the_movies.html

Take Care

have 1 question. What do his kenpo moves have to do with a PHD degree in "anatomical physics".?

will you show your school teachers some kenpo moves and receive As in their class or BS or MS in university.?

 

[Michael Billings]

... and I do not see why you are trying to tie the two together ... HE DOESN'T.

-Michael

 

[arnisador]

People seem to be claiming that someone who emphasizes his anatomical and structural approach to body mechanics in the martial arts, mentions his alleged degree constantly in his PR, sets himself up as head of a scientific university, and claims to have special insight into the nervous system, just "happens" to have a doctoral degree in Anatomical Physics. Like saying "Not only is he a dentist, he also happens to have a DDS degree! Not that that matters." Mr. Chape'l seems to feel the degree is relevant to his Kenpo. He uses it in his advertising and to strengthen his arguments ("proof by authority"). His school grants like degrees, evidently. It isn't the same as if he claimed to be a master violinist and that was false, though making false or unsupported claims isn't a strong recommendation in any scenario.

Or, are anatomy and physics not relevant to SL-4 Kenpo?

 

[Fastmover]

have 1 question. What do his kenpo moves have to do with a PHD degree in "anatomical physics".?

will you show your school teachers some kenpo moves and receive As in their class or BS or MS in university.?

Depends on if the "University" is accredited or non-accredited. The difference is important. Maybe I need to do some research but I would say before an institution becomes accredited there is much greater standards involved. Likewise receiving a degree from an accredited insitution is much different process.

Take Care

 

[Thunderbolt]

... and I do not see why you are trying to tie the two together ... HE DOESN'T.

-Michael

you missed my points. After reading a few posts here, My points here are

1-Some people here mentioned how unimportance his PHD in "anatomical physics" is and his kenpo skill should *compensate* for it.

My questions for you are

a- if it isn't importance, why did he list his PHD in his profile in the first place.?

b- When he mentioned "anatomical physics", i'm sure you would like to know whether it is a physical education or *big bang* thing, wouldn't you.?


2- He claims to *know* a lot BUT he apparently doesn't *know* how to repond his PHD thing well. When people asked about it, he needs your SSN and DoB. These people didn't apply for job for Chris sake. What these info have to do with what institution he received his PHD.?


3-I know some of you are his *buddies* and it is common to defend your buddy. Because somebody have this many red in his belt, it doesn't mean that I have to accept whatever he said as fact.

I respect for who you are BUT not your BS.

 

[Michael Billings]

People seem to be claiming that someone who emphasizes his anatomical and structural approach to body mechanics in the martial arts, mentions his alleged degree constantly in his PR, sets himself up as head of a scientific university, and claims to have special insight into the nervous system, just "happens" to have a doctoral degree in Anatomical Physics. Like saying "Not only is he a dentist, he also happens to have a DDS degree! Not that that matters." Mr. Chape'l seems to feel the degree is relevant to his Kenpo. He uses it in his advertising and to strengthen his arguments ("proof by authority"). His school grants like degrees, evidently. It isn't the same as if he claimed to be a master violinist and that was false, though making false or unsupported claims isn't a strong recommendation in any scenario.

Or, are anatomy and physics not relevant to SL-4 Kenpo?

Of course anatomy and physics are relevant to any Martial Art. Then the Kenpoists go a step further with the shared language and specialized concepts, theories, principles Mr. Parker left for us. While all of these do not meet a strict or correct definition in terms of physics, nor do the anatomical concepts like rebounding or bracing angle, have definitions in an anatomy or kinesiology text, the thing left was a "language" Kenpoist could communicate in world wide ... without being left with "well, do it like this" and relying solely on "seeing."

I understand your complaint re: his PhD, but so what? It is not part of his Martial Art. He was around, and an original 7th degree under Mr. Parker, long before he claimed an advanced university degree. You can get your panties in a wad if you want to ... but why? You ain't bustin' a fraud from what the other Seniors tell me. SL-4, well, I just don't have enough information, but as far as Kenpo goes, he can walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

-Michael

 

[shesulsa]

I think I'll call myself "Sneezy" - cuz I have allergies. The Phsyician's Assistant at the urgency care clinic said so and gave me allergy medicine - not on prescription, he gave me sample meds cuz I told him I couldn't afford to have the script filled. He also said I have trigger cells in my bronchia which causes a chronic cough (hmm .. perhaps I should call myself "Coughie"). But, then again, I'm not willing to divulge that P.A.'s name, the type of medicine I'm taking, why I went there in the first place, nor the ultimate diagnoses that resulted from that visit. So THERE!

*Stands with arms out and a big grin* Let the mud-slinging begin!!!! :flame:

 

[Bode]

This thread has degraded into mudslinging and even invitations of such:

*Stands with arms out and a big grin* Let the mud-slinging begin!!!!

How mature is that.

Points have been made on all sides. In my eye's semantics are being argued. Statements are being taken out of context. Lack of information and speculation (on both sides) is rampant.

This war will not be won. It's easy to be on the offensive on the internet. There is a wealth of information about every topic, especially public personas such as Doc. I could begin to pick apart almost anyone based on what I read. Being on the defensive is much harder because with each level lower into the minutia we go there will always be another level to pick at. I have given sound reasoning for a number of questions only to be ignored in many responses. There is no great conspiracy here. As someone said, you will not uncover a phony or do Martial Talk some great justice.

Will Doc continue to post information regarding SL4? I'm sure. Will you go about disliking his credentials... most definetly. We will just have to part ways and agree to disagree.

 

[shesulsa]

This thread has degraded into mudslinging and even invitations of such:

*Stands with arms out and a big grin* Let the mud-slinging begin!!!!

How mature is that.

Probably about as mature as some of what's already been going on - which was the point, see. Perhaps if you read the rest of my post you might understand the context.

And I agree with you in that this horse has been beaten beyond death and just needs to end.

 

[arnisador]

the thing left was a "language" Kenpoist could communicate in world wide ... without being left with "well, do it like this" and relying solely on "seeing."

Yes, and that's a great thing. I wish we had more standardization of language in the FMA. We can hardly discuss techniques across, it sometimes seems!

I understand your complaint re: his PhD, but so what? It is not part of his Martial Art. He was around, and an original 7th degree under Mr. Parker, long before he claimed an advanced university degree. You can get your panties in a wad if you want to ... but why? You ain't bustin' a fraud from what the other Seniors tell me.

Well, there are frauds and there are frauds. He may well be skilled as a kenpoist--I have no reason to doubt it--but if he is misleading the public, that's bad. As to it not being part of his martial art, have you read through his web pages? He claims to not only be a Ph.D., but that his school is authorized to grant the Ph.D. degree. Please, investigate the site:
http://www.maxpages.com/edparkerskenpo

Note that [font=times roman,times][size=+2]"Integrity Through Excellence." [/size][/font]is boldly proclaimed there. Note the frequent claims to [size=+1]AN EDUCATIONAL APPROACH and an [/size][size=+1]EDUCATIONALLY STRUCTURED PROGRESSIVE SYSTEM. [/size]There are tests and certifications. Note that it's an "ON CAMPUS" study facility. How about this:

[size=+1] a. Wear the Advanced Concepts insignia and crest;
b. Wear a University designated black belt corresponding to their rank and/or academic degree;
c. Use of the University initials and/or title that corresponds to their degree;
e. Receive a certification or Diploma Degree signed by the University Board of Credentials, Chaired by Ron Chapél
The corresponding titles for each degree of Black Belt have been changed to the following:

1. B.S. Degree - (Assistant Instructor) for first degree.
2. B.S. Degree - (Associate Instructor) for second degree.
3. B.S. Degree - (Senior Instructor) for third degree.
4. M.S. Degree - (Senior Head Instructor) for fourth degree.
5. M.S. Degree - (Master Instructor) for fifth degree.
6. M.S. Degree - (Senior Master Instructor/Associate Professor) for sixth.
7. Ph.D. Degree - (Professor) for seventh degree.
8. Ph.D. Degree - (Senior Professor) for eighth degree.
9. Ph.D. Degree - (Master Professor) for a ninth degree.
10. Ph.D. Degree - (Senior Master Professor) for tenth degree
[/size]

(There is no d. in the original.) Note the Dr Ron Chapel link. What does it say there? Well, here are some excerpts:

[size=+1]--the University emphasizes the educational aspect of Kenpo, endeavoring to make the "school" function as a college university
--[/size][size=+1] Functioning as the parent of an educational institution, the Ed Parker's Institute, requires teacher certifications over and above belt rankings of its University instructors.
--[/size][size=+1]Only the University Board of Credentials grants rank and degrees, as any other academic institution.
--[/size][size=+1]the University also requires completion of specific Course work curriculum, and awards degrees accordingly. [/size]
-[size=+1]Ron Chapél has not only earned his Ph.D. in Anatomical Physics, but has lectured and taught credit courses on college campuses, as well.[/size]
--[size=+1]Ron Chapél has continuously shown his teachings and interpretations to be a superior curriculum.[/size]

Under "Credential Instructors" (is this different from cedentialed instructors?) we have:
[size=+2]Ron Chap'el, Ph.D.

Ryan Angell, M.A.

Rodrigo Perez, M.A.[/size]

(The list continues). Then:

[size=+2]All instructors have a diploma issued by this Institution AND a signed and NOTARIZED Teaching Credential. [/size]

Some degrees seem to be mischaracterized as emeritus, which usually means retired. In a thread here he described some of the instructors as deans:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16739&page=1&pp=15

That thread is interesting reading for this discussion anyway.

How much more clear can it be that the claimed Ph.D. is relevant to his martial art and its teaching? It seems quite obvious to me. He's granting the Ph.D. to martial arts students...he needs one himself. Mr. Billings, do you really feel there's no connection at all between the claimed Ph.D. and what goes on with SL-4 at MSU?

 

[arnisador]

In my eye's semantics are being argued. Statements are being taken out of context. Lack of information and speculation (on both sides) is rampant.

But one side could settle it quite easily, by providing the facts.

This isn't an issue of semantics. It's a factual matter: What institution awarded the degree? It's isn't a semantic issue at all. If the answer is "UCLA" then that's all that's needed.

Will you go about disliking his credentials

What credentials?

No one is questioning his Kenpo lineage, if that's what you mean. But he has yet to produce even the sparest evidence that he is entitled to be addressed as "doctor" or that he has earned a Ph.D. Do you usually take unsupported claims at face value? Want to buy the Brooklyn Bridge from me?

Agree to disagree--are you not conceding the point as you had promised to do, then? Well, I'd still like to know...why claim the degree in the first place if it's a secret?

 

[Rick Wade]

Counting the seconds until this thread is locked.

First of all do what I did. I have called Doc in the past and asked him questions and some pretty pointed questions. Heck I have done it with Mr. Trejo, Mr. Mills, Mr. Tatum, Mr. Pick and even Mr. Parker and his mom. Give Doc the same common courtesy call him his number is posted on his site. He will talk; Heck He will even return your call if he isn't there on his own dime that’s what he did for me. Let me tell you I have heard some bad things about all of the seniors well most of them and I just take it with a grain of salt and form my own opinions and then keep then to myself. If he doesn't wasn’t to divulge that information in a public forum that’s his business, I don't understand it but it isn't for me to understand. The only person Doc has to answer to is Doc.

Remember Integrity is what you do when no one is watching, and it isn't something that can you can get back once you give it away.


V/R

Rick

P.S.
I don't think he would tell you over the phone either.


V/R

Rick

 

[Mark Weiser]

I have been reading this Thread for a few days. Here are some facts about Higher Educational Insitutions.

Accredation is subject to the "University" Board of Directors and whom or with what agency they wish to associate with in granting Degrees. The "University" can grant Degrees based on its own programs and educational tracks. The University sets its own policies on what is needed for gaining a Degree with its University. The key question are these Degrees recongized by other Universities. Honestly when it comes to Kenpo. It is not important ( This is a University that teaches and trains in Kenpo that is I belive its sole purpose)

I should know I was in the process of starting a Bible College here in Kansas. You can make a corporation that is educational in nature and gain accredation with any accredating agency or go it alone depending on the Charter and By Laws.

This University that "Doc" is associated with may have granted him his PhD and does have the LEGAL right to give degrees out to those students that adhere to its educational track and guidelines and the State and Federal Laws if needed.

This University grants Degrees in Kenpo and you study on Campus and gain a Degree per its policies.

What is the Problem Nothing as long as you do not try and use the degree to gain entrance to another University but then again its that Universities Policy if you can use this Degree to gain admittance to its Educational Programs.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Thread moved from Kenpo Forum to The Great Debate Forum

Rich Parsons
Martial Talk
Super Moderator