To Doc

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

I want to get a clear understanding of the use of the word 'science' in the title of the MSU, and the nature of the B.S./M.S./Ph.D. degrees it grants. The question of your qualifications seems an obvious point of departure. You seem to be portraying yourself as the head of a degree-granting body who is willing to state that he has a Ph.D. but not willing to allow verification of that claim. Does anything about that strike you as odd?


You haven't said enough for that to be a possibility.

As to demands, this is a discussion board and I'm discussing. It's a common enough occurrence among academics, incidentally--trading information, testing ideas via friendly argumentation, etc. It's codified in the traditions of publishing one's research, and in the public dissertation defense. I'm not the one who has made unsupported claims, am I?


Agreed. But you're trying to have it both ways, claiming to be a Ph.D. in a nonstandard field but not being willing to back up your claim. You want to eat your cake by being called Dr., then have it too with this "I've got a secret!" game. Why should you not be questioned on that? If I were to announce on this forum that I'm an 8th degree black belt in Kenpo, personally promoted by the Founder himself prior to his death, wouldn't many ask about the certificate?


Hmmm, having received so much exposure on this board, I forgot that my public profile doesn't actually have my name. Are you hinting about that? It's Jeff Leader, as Kaith Rustaz will verify for you. A Yahoo! search will turn up all you might want to know about me, I think, unless you're implying that you have better sources of information available to you because of your occupation.

But trying to distract attention from you by turning it on me is such an obvious tactic. Mr Chap'el, is your Ph.D. an earned degree, and if so, where did you earn it?

Don't expect much Jeff, I've been where you are now, asking the same exact questions many years ago.

DarK LorD

 

[Doc]

I want to get a clear understanding of the use of the word 'science' in the title of the MSU, and the nature of the B.S./M.S./Ph.D. degrees it grants. The question of your qualifications seems an obvious point of departure. You seem to be portraying yourself as the head of a degree-granting body who is willing to state that he has a Ph.D. but not willing to allow verification of that claim. Does anything about that strike you as odd?


You haven't said enough for that to be a possibility.

As to demands, this is a discussion board and I'm discussing. It's a common enough occurrence among academics, incidentally--trading information, testing ideas via friendly argumentation, etc. It's codified in the traditions of publishing one's research, and in the public dissertation defense. I'm not the one who has made unsupported claims, am I?


Agreed. But you're trying to have it both ways, claiming to be a Ph.D. in a nonstandard field but not being willing to back up your claim. You want to eat your cake by being called Dr., then have it too with this "I've got a secret!" game. Why should you not be questioned on that? If I were to announce on this forum that I'm an 8th degree black belt in Kenpo, personally promoted by the Founder himself prior to his death, wouldn't many ask about the certificate?


Hmmm, having received so much exposure on this board, I forgot that my public profile doesn't actually have my name. Are you hinting about that? It's Jeff Leader, as Kaith Rustaz will verify for you. A Yahoo! search will turn up all you might want to know about me, I think, unless you're implying that you have better sources of information available to you because of your occupation.

But trying to distract attention from you by turning it on me is such an obvious tactic. Mr Chap'el, is your Ph.D. an earned degree, and if so, where did you earn it?

You remind me of one of my children. Just because you jump and down and re-word your question doesn't mean my answer will change. As an educated adult I can't believe you're that dense, but apparently you are. You may scream all you want. Asked and answered.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Hey Arnie... what's up dude? Glad to see you posting again.

Since I have known Mr. Chape'l aka (Doc) for decades I can answer (I think LOL) most of what inquiring minds want to know. Here goes.......

I want to get a clear understanding of the use of the word 'science' in the title of the MSU....

The good 'Doc' has [like many Quality Senior students of the Late Ed Parker] developed his own organization based upon his training and education. He has decided to term this organization MSU (Martial Science University). He has input from several differing disciplines, (Silat, Aikido, JiuJitsu, and of course American Kenpo) all of which are held in very high esteem in each of their chosen areas. Thus, he has chosen to term this model "university" instead of the traditional Karate Association (no disrespect, just a different term) approach.

Now as far as the term "Science" goes...... since we all (in the martial arts) are involved with the motion of the human body the term for this activity would then become Kinesiology {which I'm sure you would agree is Scientific}. :ultracool So I don't see why you question the term. It really is a science. I do it, you do it, Doc does it......... he just uses terms that you and I have to go look up at times........LOL:uhyeah: {Is that what's bugging you .......LOL well, me too at times (wink)}

As an example........ Doc really presses the term "Structural Integrity", well guess what...... so do I, but I call it Proper Body Alignment so really here I think that there is much miscommunication or depth of understanding of just what he is saying...... {he does like to talk funny at times} (wink at Doc) :wink2:

What is the nature of the B.S./M.S./Ph.D. degrees it (MSU) grants.

I really don't know what you are talking about here. I have never known him to grant any of these. He is modeling Mr. Parker in his ranking in which Mr. Parker offered rank titles (as an option to those who so chose to use them) to accent the various degrees of Black Belt to honor the hard work and achievement that he felt one deserved. For example 5th Degree Black Belt is an Associate Professor, 6th is Professor, 7th is Senior Professor, 8th is Associate Master and so on. I know of many today that use (or misuse) these titles in their organizations everyday.

Doc and the MSU are only offering the same. SSDD So, if it's semantics you are after ...... well, you are there.

The question of your qualifications seems an obvious point of departure. You seem to be portraying yourself as the head of a degree-granting body who is willing to state that he has a Ph.D. but not willing to allow verification of that claim. Does anything about that strike you as odd?

His qualifications have never been a point of departure (from my point of view) but then, I have known him for over twenty five years. He is ranked by what you have already read, the PH.D. is not from Stanford, ASU, Berkley, Yale, Harvard etc.... but he does have and academic PH.D. (but ops to not disclose from where for personal reasons) It really is not an issue here since his students were the ones to give him the NICKNAME "DOC" (which he has already stated) and they can call him what they want to. Many call me Mr. C, some say Professor, yet others Mr. Conatser...... so what. Kenpo is what he is discussing on this forum (not what and where his rank came from) so no matter what he is called it is irrelevant. Unless he claims otherwise, it's a moot point. If you don't want to listen to what he has to say.....then don't.

As far as self portrayal goes... yes he is the head of the MSU but one of his unique testing qualifications is that no one in the "University" can promote alone..... there must be a board and many requirements. NEAT me thinks!

There are some on this and other Forums that call themselves 10th Degrees and in my opinion are mid range Blacks at best, yet others are calling themselves Soke's....... well, guess what..... I don't respond to those guys often......... LOL simple...

:ultracool

 

[arnisador]

You remind me of one of my children. Just because you jump and down and re-word your question doesn't mean my answer will change. As an educated adult I can't believe you're that dense, but apparently you are. You may scream all you want. Asked and answered.

Scream? Jump up and down? No reasonable person could draw such a conclusion, but I suppose I can't be surprised to see you switching to ad hominem attacks. I note in passing that you begin with the observation that your own children are ill-mannered before characterizing me. The ability to engage in rational argument is clearly not one of your strengths, Mr. Chap'el.

In that regard, you might consider the benefits of a college education.

 

[Doc]

Scream? Jump up and down? No reasonable person could draw such a conclusion, but I suppose I can't be surprised to see you switching to ad hominem attacks. I note in passing that you begin with the observation that your own children are ill-mannered before characterizing me. The ability to engage in rational argument is clearly not one of your strengths, Mr. Chap'el.

In that regard, you might consider the benefits of a college education.

And you sir clearly have your head squarely somewhere where it does not receive any sunshine, and that's affecting your hearing. Perhaps you should have it checked, because I did answer your questions, just not the way you wanted. Perhaps we will meet one day and I can help you extricate it.

 

[arnisador]

Hey Arnie... what's up dude? Glad to see you posting again.

Good to hear from you! I'll be in the Southwest all next academic year (Albuquerque). I appreciate your input and I certainly respect your opinion. But, from where I'm sitting it all looks pretty odd.

I understood that they were indeed giving degrees or degree-like titles--that is, acting like a college or university--from here:
http://maxpages.com/edparkerskenpo/Ed_Parker_Institute
This lists B.S., M.S., and Ph.D. degrees/diplomas, if I understand correctly. But, it's hard to tell much from the web page. I also inferred that 'science' was meant more strongly than you indicate--in the sense you give, I suppose we are all doing it! But, the pseudo-scientific language used by the MSU folks makes it sound like actual science is intended.

I don't know if Mr. Chape'l is a fraud who has set himself up as head of his own university and awarded himself a Ph.D., or if he has a legitimate Ph.D. but chooses to play this game for some reason. His actions are very, very odd for a holder of a legitimate Ph.D., but I suppose one could plan on having it eventually 'discovered' that the Ph.D. was legit, then use it as a defense against other queries ("You were wrong about the doctorate so you're wrong about this next issue."). Still, I can't see a way to put a positive spin on a.) claiming the Ph.D., yet b.) refusing to allow for its verification. It just doesn't add up! Someone really interested in keeping it private would just not tell people he had a Ph.D. in the first place, wouldn't he? Instead it's listed often on the web.

It just doesn't add up.

I should be clear, I'm not commenting on his martial arts skills...I have no way to form an opinion on that without seeing him in person.

 

[arnisador]

And you sir clearly have your head squarely somewhere where it does not receive any sunshine, and that's affecting your hearing. Perhaps you should have it checked, because I did answer your questions, just not the way you wanted. Perhaps we will meet one day and I can help you extricate it.

??? Is this a threat?

 

[MJS]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-MJS
-MT Moderator-

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

And you sir clearly have your head squarely somewhere where it does not receive any sunshine, and that's affecting your hearing. Perhaps you should have it checked, because I did answer your questions, just not the way you wanted. Perhaps we will meet one day and I can help you extricate it.

Hmm, I can be in San Diego and you can duplicate your offer with me.

DarK LorD

 

[MHeeler]

You know that's kind of humorous asking how MY academic background is MY personal information. Sort of like me asking you if your IQ is your business, (which of course, it is). The idea of, being in a forum on the internet, having a conversation with someone who has chosen to not even put a name in their profile, questioning me about my occupation qualifications, also strikes ma as a tad funny and Alpha Centaury ballsy.

The accredited academic colleges and universities where I teach and have taught seem to be satisfied with my background examination and credentials, and students aware of my credentials have had no complaints with my performance. The same can be said of my Kenpo students, who are somewhat less demanding academically, but much more focused on physical teaching ability. Nevertheless they would seem to be satisfied, and I have never ever lost a student to another Kenpo teacher in 42 years of teaching Kenpo. My other occupation has chosen to annoint me with a "top secret" clearance, in fact a large segment of my students also have these clearances, so we "check each other out" pretty well. Should you decide to become a student in one of my Kenpo classes you would be oblidged to fill out a background form and confidentiality waiver, with a little more information than your profile lists. This, obliging you to give up information in exchange for information, as opposed to high horse anonymous demands from behind a keyboard. I must say I've been somewhat suspicious as of late because there has been a rash of "light" profiles from single digit newbie posters who seem focused on me personally. If this seem paranoid, I'm reminded by one of my DEA students, "It's not paranoia if they are really out to get you." But in all seriousness, I've had some real significant experiences that justify my cautiousness, and that will continue into retirement.

Yes degrees are easily purchased, (even accredited and unaccredited) if you have the money. With the right amount of money donated you can buy a "real" degree from any institution. Some with acquired legitimate degrees are awful teachers, (we've all had some of them in college). So I guess ultimately the only thing you can go by is performance once you are immersed in a teaching/learning environment.

At any rate, to answer your question, anyone who finds themselves in one of my classes is fully aware of my credentials relevant to the class being taught as they should be. Now would you please give me your name, social security number, and date of birth. Nothing personal, I just want to make sure you're a "real" person and verify your identity to post here.

Hmmm. I've just seen where this thread has been heading, and I'm puzzled. I thought this started as a legitimate request for clarification/further information. Judging by your reply, I'm getting the idea that I insulted you in some way. By no means was that my intent.

I AM a newbie, to this and other forums. I've read some of these forums for some time now, but never had much to say or, more importantly, the time to say it. However, I have read posts by you and about you in the past. You always seemed to have interesting things to say, especially about your area of expertise. I think it's only natural that my curiosity is piqued.

As far as the "personal information" thing is concerned, I guess we just define it differently. I was drawing a line between personal and professional/business. You seem to be saying that ANY information about yourself and your past is off-limits. If that's the case, then I suppose we'll just have to leave it at that. My curiosity has not been satisfied, but we all know what happened to the cat. I'll agree to respect your wishes on this one. However, I must say that I don't understand why you yourself post quite a bit of "personal information" on your own website (http://www.maxpages.com/edparkerskenpo/Dr_Ron_Chapel) if you are concerned about privacy/safety.

Incidentally, this is why I didn't post any of MY personal information. I've heard enough horror stories of the internet to make me a little wary. But again, I'm not asking for YOUR social security number or birth date. Just the name of a school. I honestly don't see how that would jeopardize your security in any way. However, like you said, you're the one with law enforcement experience, and apparently you've had some similar problems in the past. If so, I won't cause you any further trouble.

By the way, I never meant to imply anything about your skill as a teacher. I think we've all heard enough from your students to tell us that, in that regard, you're no slouch. And, along those lines, I also wasn't aware that you teach at institutions other than your own. Is this only in your area, or do you travel? Once again, I'm not asking for anything that would put yourself in danger. I consider myself a student and would enjoy the opportunity to learn.

Respectfully yours,
Marshall Heeler

PS: I agree that it's a great idea to perform background checks on prospective students. It's a shame that this isn't more commonplace.

 

[Brother John]

Wow, I've not seen this particular argument for some time.
Mr. Leader, I was once doing pretty much the same thing you are doing now. I sympathize with you. Thing is though, Mr. Chapel just plain doesn't divulge this info....period. Frustrating? Sure. I'm like you, if a person is going to use a title...I think they shouldn't worry about validating it. BUT: What you think and what I think, put them together and add ten more like them....and Mr. Chapel STILL won't tell.
It's his perogative. :idunno:

BUT: I will tell you this. This is how I decided to settle it for myself.
#1: I became resigned to the fact that he just wasn't going to tell.
#2: I decided that I wouldn't use the term doctor, doc, Dr. ....etc. in communicating with him or about him. ((though sometimes it's like, what the heck....and I do anyway............who cares))
#3: I can't help but acknowledge that he has a great deal of martial arts history knowledge as well as quite a bit of info on Kenpo...as he's been there for quite some time and he studied under one of my Hero's. SO...I do communicate with him.
#4: Since I DO communicate with him here on MT, but don't acknowledge the Doc, Doctor, Dr., PHd...etc.... I just simply use a respectful term. Mr. Chapel. Seems to work just fine, still appropriate and respectful w/out getting into the whole "Title" deal.

Nobody needs to have anything "lodged" anywhere dark and stinky, and nobody needs this talk of extrication. I'd think both kinds of talk were beneath both of you.

Just something to think about.
Your Brother (my favorite title)
John

 

[Seabrook]

There are some on this and other Forums that call themselves 10th Degrees and in my opinion are mid range Blacks at best, yet others are calling themselves Soke's....... well, guess what..... I don't respond to those guys often......... LOL simple...

:ultracool

Ooooh la la....we all love gossip Dennis......any hints?


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Seabrook]

The only thing about the PhD title is this:

What if someone wanted to study Anatomical Physics at the graduate level as a way to improve his/her Kenpo like Ron Chapel did? There should be some university offering an MSc or PhD in this area. If one cannot be found, naturally it makes people wonder.



Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[arnisador]

I'm not aware of any school offering this degree. Rarely, one is allowed to design one's own Ph.D. program, but it's much more common to see something like that at the bachelor's level.

I'm all for studying this type of thing. Think about depts. of Anatomy, Physiology, Kineseology, Physical Education, Sports Science or Sports Medicine, Physics (e.g., Biophysics), Mechanical or Biomedical Engineering (e.g., Biomechanics), Biology, Psychology (less natural fit, but think of all the reaction time studies and such), Neural or Cognitive Sciences, etc. There are lots of appropriate options already. One could also study Medicine (e.g., at an Osteopathic school) or Chiropractic, though the latter are still fighting for academic respect (note the recent debacle at FSU). I think in some countries, such as Korea, you can study in a martial arts focused kineseology program, at least at the undergraduate level. Of course, there's also TCM or here in the U.S. a N.D. degree, or a D.P.T. or the like.

There are a lot of legitimate options for advanced study. One just needs to find the right advisor, or get a professional degree and do one's own research.

I think Brother John has found a sensible path. But, I think someone who makes part of his living giving seminars should be prepared to back up his bio.--it's a simple matter of truth in advertising.

 

[Blindside]

I have a M.S. in forest ecosystem analysis, as a little experiment I googled; "forest ecosystem analysis" and "masters," voila, my college was the first google hit.

I did something similar with "anatomical physics" and "doctorate" and got precisely diddly. A search of "anatomy," "physics," and "doctorate" got this program as its number one hit. Given Doc's apparent interests, this looked promising. I have no idea if this is the correct program, I'm sure there are other similar ones out there.

I will say that I've never met a professional scientist who hid their curriculum vitae. Actually in modern science it is impossible, academic credentials are usually on the first page of an article in any professional journal.

Lamont

 

[Kenpodoc]

People worry too much about degrees.

Doc hits hard and plays well. I've never met anyone who didn't say he had the chops to back up his lip. He's cocky and arrogant but also generous with his reponses and time. All in all who cares about degrees. When it comes to Kenpo he knows more than I'll ever know.

Respectfully,

Jeff, M.D.

 

[Bode]

People worry too much about degrees.

Doc hits hard and plays well. I've never met anyone who didn't say he had the chops to back up his lip. He's cocky and arrogant but also generous with his reponses and time. All in all who cares about degrees. When it comes to Kenpo he knows more than I'll ever know.

Well said.

There were way's to go about inquiring to his credentials. This thread, towards the end, was not the best way. Rather than keep questioning him, perhaps trying to understand why he is protective would help. History plays a great role in Doc's decisions I imagine. He's been down this road before with little to have gained from it. For a person who's knowledge requires a physical application in order to be of any use this line of credential questioning smacks as absurb. His insistents on "feeling" the effects is simply based on expediency. It would take 2 minutes to explain something face to face where it might take two months to write the paper to explain why it works the way it does. Doc could write papers all day long and never teach us a damn thing. (He has a hard enough time keeping up with writing the coursebooks) Or he could teach us in hopes that one day someone will perform the studies need to convince the internet skeptics. But, as we all know, having knowledge without application is useless.

I will say this. Not any of the SL4 students questions Doc's knowledge. One class would erase any doubts as to whether or not Doc is deserving of the title of PhD. Accredited or otherwise. If it's knowledge of the Martial arts you seek then Doc can and does provide, beyond anyone I have ever encountered. Doesn't mean I don't look elswhere and as said before, Doc encourages us to.
Claims that MSU have stated that SL4 is superior are grossly misinterpreted and taken out of context. Arnisador, even after I described our position (in the other thread), and stated that we never claimed superiority, you continued saying we did. I don't know why. If you can find one quote saying such, then I would concede your point.

As KenpoDoc said, titles mean little. The person and their teaching mean more. I personally wouldn't care if Doc had lied about ever aspect of this life. His teaching is undeniably top notch. My skill and knowledge will undoubtedly prove the efficacy of his teaching, of that I am confident. (not cocky, just confident). Has everyone I encountered agreed with the approach, no, but they always walked away with respect. Doc's teachings will live on, which is my main concern. Much respect Doc. As you stood on the shoulder of a giant, I too, stand on the shoulders of a giant. Others can agree or disagree. Feel free, more space for my education.

 

[arnisador]

All in all who cares about degrees. When it comes to Kenpo he knows more than I'll ever know.

This is tepid support...he knows his Kenpo, so who cares whether he has the credentials claimed? (If only the people going after Maung Gyi of Bando felt the same way!) Some degrees are (effectively) a prerequisite to obtaining licensing...try becoming a lawyer without a law degree. (I think it can still be done in Vermont, but it's a much longer process.) No one is questioning whether or not he can perform, or teach...I have no direct knowledge of that. But how much behaviour shall that excuse?

What would you think of someone who claims to have a medical degree but won't say from what school it was obtained?

 

[bdparsons]

All in all who cares about degrees.

Apparently Mr. Chapel does. From inclusion on his own website to the numerous references to his advanced degree on this forum.

One class would erase any doubts as to whether or not Doc is deserving of the title of PhD. Accredited or otherwise.

That may be the case, but why then the need to make repeated references to it (accredited or otherwise) in an attempt to justify your knowledge and background to others?

Claims that MSU have stated that SL4 is superior are grossly misinterpreted and taken out of context.

If you can find one quote saying such, then I would concede your point.

From Mr. Chapel's bio on his website: "...Ron Chapel has continuously shown his teachings and interpretations to be a superior curriculum." How would you read that?

I personally wouldn't care if Doc had lied about ever aspect of this life.

Really?? Integrity is integrity, you don't get to pick and choose. Situational ethics?

Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[arnisador]

For a person who's knowledge requires a physical application in order to be of any use this line of credential questioning smacks as absurb.

The same is true of a surgeon--the truth is in the cutting. Wouldn't you inquire about your surgeon's credentials? Isn't there a reason why credentialing is one of many steps involved?

In any event, you're off-base. I'm not saying he needs the credentials--no one is saying that. It is he who claims to have them--he is the one trumpeting the fact, all the way down to his choice of user name here. Direct your questions about the importance of the credentials to him. The question here is, are his claims correct? You're guilty of a straw man argument.

Doc could write papers all day long and never teach us a damn thing.

I believe you. Yet, publication is a system that has worked well for scientists for many centuries. In science, we say that "Anyone who can't explain what he's doing to an 11 year old is a fraud." If you understand it, it's clear to you.

One class would erase any doubts as to whether or not Doc is deserving of the title of PhD.

No. A Ph.D. means research ability, not teaching ability. You don't understand what you don't understand here. It's not a knowledge thing, it's not a teaching thing...it's a contribution of original knowledge by accepted methods of scholarly endeavour thing.

Arnisador, even after I described our position (in the other thread), and stated that we never claimed superiority, you continued saying we did. I don't know why. If you can find one quote saying such, then I would concede your point.

Go here and find post # 63, posted on 05-12-2005 at 07:14 AM by JenniM:

Having just started my journey into SL4 I can categorically state that the route/method taken in getting to the strike, whatever that strike may be IS paramount to delivering the most effective structurally sound and devastating strike - we have tested this in class over and over again and the results are unquestionable - even in the short time I have been studying SL4, I am now beginning to be able to "feel" when my body is correct in its alignment and structural integrity for the execution/delivery of a strike (although I still get it wrong sometimes!) - in effect I am re-learning correct mechanisms which over the years my body has forgotten and this is why when you are performing these moves you have to "feel" what you are doing – you may not get it right the first time but when you do you’ll know it!!

(Emphasis added.) Categorically, most effective, tested, unquestionable, correct mechanisms...these are not weak claims. Most effective is indeed a categorical claim.

Do you, as promised, concede my point?

I personally wouldn't care if Doc had lied about ever aspect of this life.

I'm glad you're on his side of this argument and not mine. Can we agree that your hero-worship has blinded you? We have entered the realm of Martial Scientology, where veracity is no longer needed.