To defend myself, do I need to carry a weapon?

[Cyriacus]

Super Vijal, it's the concept that you should be prepared to win that matters. There's all this talk about how fights happen closer than you think

Fights dont happen closer than You think - Attacks do. And They are closer than You think.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Super Vijal, it's the concept that you should be prepared to win that matters. There's all this talk about how fights happen closer than you think and you are suggesting that perhaps instead of carrying a knife or gun it would be better to find an appropriate improvised weapon to match the attack, pick it up, and only use it as aggressively as your attacker, no more. Sure this sounds great in court, but it'll be your family and a few local police telling the jury exactly what happened while you are in critical condition in the hospital or in the mourge. It's just not practical.
If my attackers are going to come in high number and well armed, perhaps I should do the same to increase my survivability . You may have missed the 'force multiplier' thing, one of the great things about weapons is they can increase the chance of your survivability even in desperate situations.
Your mission is to protect your friends and family and live another day, it's constan and you never know when you might need to execute it. So in the mean time, it might be a good idea to arm yourself with a weapon and learn how to use it.

That one sentence right there means I maintain my belief that you have completely missed the point of defense. Winning has no place in a real world violent encounter. It belongs on the mat, in the octagon or a ring. On the streets, it's a case of: you should be prepared to survive.

There's all this talk about fights (attacks, actually) happening closer than you think because they do. What would you say a typical distance for a knife attack is? What about a sudden shove and hit type attack? I am not suggesting it is better to not carry a weapon, I am saying it is best to know your local laws and rights and to work within those guidelines. I am also saying it is important to realise carrying a gun does not make you invincible but rather raises the stakes considerably. I am definitely saying you should match the attackers aggression rather than purely worrying about overpowering it and beating it because you are no use to your family if you are alive and locked in a prison because you thought you were protecting them. The biggest component of any self defense (which includes protecting friends and family) has to be appropriate force.

If your attackers are going to come in high numbers and you want to do the same, you would need to constantly travel in a posse or with an entourage. Believe me, I didn't miss the force multiplier aspect mentioned, I simply pointed out that a large part of SD is mindset and seeking something purely for the sake of being bigger and stronger doesn't gel with that. A weapon can increase you chance of survival, they can also aggravate your attacker and escalate things from a verbal shoving match to them pulling weapons of their own, not to mention there is a real chance you will lose your weapon to your attacker and suddenly have a whole new threat to deal with. All that aside, as Cyriacus has been pointing out, unless you have very specific training, the time taken to draw the weapon and calm the adrenaline enough to use it effectively has to be factored in.

Personally, my mission is to live a full and happy life, doing what I enjoy with people I want to enjoy those things with. My mission is to go about my day to day, go to training, develop myself as a person and become enriched by my experiences. If we are talking purely SD, my mission is to ensure such a situation doesn't arise and I can keep my friends, family and myself safe without ever needing to test my physical, combative or martial skills; or prove myself. If I fail in my mission, the rest of it comes into play.

 

[stonewall1350]

Wh

In a SD situation, a weapon or an object IMO should be picked up to act as an equalizer at it's base level and if it offers advantages, then great! Level the playing field as you put it Frank. If an attacker has a stick and you pick up a gun and use it, it's no longer appropriate force and therefore no longer within the realm of self defense.

A stick is absolutely a deadly weapon...and the rules of engagement for a firearm are "Death or grevious bodily harm."

A firearm is to be carried with a concealed weapons license...and it may be used to stop the forcible commision of a felony (this is Florida law btw), and it can be used to stop someone committing a violent act against you if you feel "death or grevious bodily harm," may befall you if you do not engage. It applies to others through the "stand in their shoes" clause of the CC Laws.

Quite frankly if someone pulls a stick and intends to beat ME with it...I will be pulling my firearm. Do I WANT to? No. But at the point of that kind of violence...I feel that the choice had been taken away from me (or anyone else in that situation). If in the process of getting my firearm out...and they flee...I CANNOT shoot them.

 

[stonewall1350]

Yeah - And sometimes to deploy it, there needs to be a halt in the movements of the person trying to beat stab or batter You.

Exactly. Same with pulling ANY other weapon. Just because it requires a little extra skill to deploy doesn't mean I am going to take it out of my tool bag. All that is part of proper training.

I mean if I END the fight whilst in the process of creating space...then obviously I will not deploy the firearm. That would depend upon how my attacker (attackers?) react to my blows...if I can press the attack and neutralize the threat...sure enough I will. But I am NOT going to take get into a rolling on the ground fight, or extended stand up battle. They would more than likely run because they know I will not be a victim without them suffering, or I am moving to my firearm and the fight is going to end. Remember "death OR grevious bodily harm."

 

[Supra Vijai]

A stick is absolutely a deadly weapon...and the rules of engagement for a firearm are "Death or grevious bodily harm."

A firearm is to be carried with a concealed weapons license...and it may be used to stop the forcible commision of a felony (this is Florida law btw), and it can be used to stop someone committing a violent act against you if you feel "death or grevious bodily harm," may befall you if you do not engage. It applies to others through the "stand in their shoes" clause of the CC Laws.

Quite frankly if someone pulls a stick and intends to beat ME with it...I will be pulling my firearm. Do I WANT to? No. But at the point of that kind of violence...I feel that the choice had been taken away from me (or anyone else in that situation). If in the process of getting my firearm out...and they flee...I CANNOT shoot them.

I'm fairly sure we are saying the same thing. I mentioned appropriate force multiple times in that post and my posts since on the topic. If you feel in fear for your life and are able to, certainly deploy your firearm if you are legally allowed to do so. I also have no qualms with a stick being a deadly weapon in an attacker's hands. My point to Christian Soldier was mainly knowing when it is appropriate to use said firearm and when not to - such as when the attack ends, you have subdued the opponent either verbally or physically or when they are running away. If your attacker however is standing there, yelling threats at you from a dozen feet away and you pull out your firearm and shoot, there is no way you can justify your use of the weapon was my point.

 

[stonewall1350]

I'm fairly sure we are saying the same thing. I mentioned appropriate force multiple times in that post and my posts since on the topic. If you feel in fear for your life and are able to, certainly deploy your firearm if you are legally allowed to do so. I also have no qualms with a stick being a deadly weapon in an attacker's hands. My point to Christian Soldier was mainly knowing when it is appropriate to use said firearm and when not to - such as when the attack ends, you have subdued the opponent either verbally or physically or when they are running away. If your attacker however is standing there, yelling threats at you from a dozen feet away and you pull out your firearm and shoot, there is no way you can justify your use of the weapon was my point.

Alrighty I kind of read more on it. You CAN keep someone at gun point IF they surrender (not always advised...and if they try to run...let them and call the police IMMEDIATELY), but I certainly have little interest in holding someone down or searching that. That is a job for the clean up crew (police). If someone IS yelling threats and you CAN prepare yourself for defense. I would most likely get myself into a defensive posture (one hand in a foward position the other hand behind my back where I carry my weapon), and start telling him get back. I mean the situation certainly depends on the how the person is acting of course, but I refuse to lose at a confrontation on the street because losing is death.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Alrighty I kind of read more on it. You CAN keep someone at gun point IF they surrender (not always advised...and if they try to run...let them and call the police IMMEDIATELY), but I certainly have little interest in holding someone down or searching that. That is a job for the clean up crew (police). If someone IS yelling threats and you CAN prepare yourself for defense. I would most likely get myself into a defensive posture (one hand in a foward position the other hand behind my back where I carry my weapon), and start telling him get back. I mean the situation certainly depends on the how the person is acting of course, but I refuse to lose at a confrontation on the street because losing is death.

Yeah look I agree with throwing up a hand as a defensive barrier if you have that room and reaching behind your back with the other. For one, it sends all sorts of visual cues and if done properly, is not going to be taken as a sign of overt aggression from your part. Any assault that happens against you after that point is certainly something you deal with as you have to. The telling the person to get back is another thing because it works for any witnesses around the place as well.

Also, agreed that losing *can be* death on the streets. I also notice that, at no point have you said anything about "winning the fight" The aim as I feel we are both saying is survival, not winning.

 

[Supra Vijai]

The topic of appropriate force is being covered extensively in this thread so this link seems appropriate. I've also just posted it in another thread I had started a while back re: recommended readings.

Scaling Force: Dynamic Decision Making Under Threat of Violence (Paperback)

The following is brief outline:

Conflict and violence cover a broad range of behaviors, from intimidation to murder, and require an equally broad range of responses. A kind word will not resolve all situations, nor will wristlocks, punches, or even a gun.Scaling Force introduces the full range of options, from skillfully doing nothing to employing deadly force. You will understand the limits of each type of force, when specific levels may be appropriate, the circumstances under which you may have to apply them, and the potential costs, legally and personally, of your decision.

As of now, this book is going for $13.92 (with free shipping) and is due to come out in 94 days so pre-order only at this stage. IMO it will be a worthwhile read for all martial artists

http://www.bookdepository.com/Scaling-Force-Rory-Miller/9781594392504

 

[Christian Soldier]

I had a really well worded and explanotory post but my computer froze and deleted it and it's getting late now and I didn't want to write it again.

My basic concise point is this: Preparedness is better than unpreparedness.

 

[Cyriacus]

I had a really well worded and explanotory post but my computer froze and deleted it and it's getting late now and I didn't want to write it again.

My basic concise point is this: Preparedness is better than unpreparedness.

Obviously.

But theres more than one way You can be prepared.

 

[Hanshi]

I've studied the traditional weapons as most of you have; but let's face it. You can't really go around carrying a sword, chuks or bo so what are the alternatives? I was trained to use weapons first in any dangerous encounter. I do carry knives most of the time but what about air travel? I was also taught "environmental" weapons. I use a cane due to a disability, a plain oak staff cut to my size. I get seated first on planes and look about as non-dangerous as one can get. Plain plastic combs, credit (plastic) cards, 5" wood dowels, etc, can be effective and even lethal with just a bit of training. Most importantly, it is WILL, not SKILL that won't let you down.

 

[Supra Vijai]

I've studied the traditional weapons as most of you have; but let's face it. You can't really go around carrying a sword, chuks or bo so what are the alternatives? I was trained to use weapons first in any dangerous encounter. I do carry knives most of the time but what about air travel? I was also taught "environmental" weapons. I use a cane due to a disability, a plain oak staff cut to my size. I get seated first on planes and look about as non-dangerous as one can get. Plain plastic combs, credit (plastic) cards, 5" wood dowels, etc, can be effective and even lethal with just a bit of training. Most importantly, it is WILL, not SKILL that won't let you down.

Within our organization we recently went through a workshop on improvised weapons using everyday items. I can't (with our local laws), justify carrying a 5" wood dowel around with me any more than I could a knife; certainly not a gun.

With that in mind, we looked at things like water bottles, torches, magazines etc but the primary lesson of the day was that anything you carry is just a tool. YOU are the weapon. The moment you start putting all your faith in what you are carrying, you've lost half the battle because you are subconsciously training yourself that is where your power stems from.

 

[ilhe4e12345]

I have worked as a bouncer for many years and trained in a few different styles of self defense and I will tell you this....a weapon always escalates any situation (good or bad). I have never carried a knife on myself unless I am camping or hiking. I feel in a situation where you might need it, it has too much of a risk to be used against you (even if you are good).

Ill give you an example: The strip club I worked at, one of the new guys use to carry a small knife on his person (he was young, 20 and thought he was a real BA and that nobody could take him down) and one night a group of guys tried to follow one of the girls out to her car and he followed. Needless to say words were exchanged and a fight broke out. The knife was taken from him and cut his arm up pretty bad. Since then I will never carry a weapon on me due to the risk of it being used against me is too great. Now am i saying that everyone that has a knife is going end up getting cut by their own blade like this guy did? No, not at all. Im just saying from what i have seen the risk is too great no matter how good you are...and honestly if a situation like that you have to be ready to kill someone. Once a knife or weapon is pulled the whole situation changes...I have gotten into many fights because of idiots who think they can do whatever they want or had to much to drink...I have seen a guy try to use a small bar table as a weapon to fend off 4 bouncers at once only to end up being laughed at...but once a blade weapon or a gun is brought out, thats when people will get scared....and that leads to extreme violent actions more so then just a fist being thrown into someones face.....I have gotten hit in the face before and while it has made me angry I never got to "the edge", but the second I see a weapon......

As for a gun, I have a permit to carry and I do keep it on me but while im on the floor I keep it in my car unless I am told Its needed (the owner doesnt want us to have guns in the building even if we have a permit to carry) and I have had it on my person while working at my other job (work in a city late hours on days im not bouncing and its a ruff walk to where my car is parked) but thats a last ditch effort and I fully know that if i have to draw that, then i will have to kill someone.

Just becareful....even the best in the world at security and armed combat can make a mistake or be put into a situation where their own weapon can and will be used against them...

 

[celestial_dragon]

Self defense is described as the maximum amount of force necessary to defeat an opponent. I.E. if they are not armed and attack you, and you pull out your gun, shoot and kill them, then you are going to prison, because the amount of force you used was unnecessary.

 

[Cyriacus]

Self defense is described as the maximum amount of force necessary to defeat an opponent. I.E. if they are not armed and attack you, and you pull out your gun, shoot and kill them, then you are going to prison, because the amount of force you used was unnecessary.

I always thought Self Defence was described as Defending Yourself, without the term also defining within what bounds You do it. I must have been wrong.

 

[Mz1]

DETERRENT. Knives are great. Guns are greater.

No amount of fake training can prepare anyone for real life situations with weapons or vs. real weapons in a civilized society. That's why cops, with all of their training, also gets shot when they hesitate or miscalculate or get into big trouble with the public for shooting unarmed perps holding a black wallet in the dark. Most training involving weapons are play/fake training. You're only pretending to stab someone or pretending to shoot them. Even with live ammo, you're only shooting paper.

All situations can totally be different. Not all are life or death. Law abiding citizens are more likely to deter crime by just showing their gun w/o ever having to shoot anyone. Not many toughguys would challenge someone with a gun in real life. When you carry weapons, you have options. If you want to go Rambo (drawing your gun) over every altercation, ie. a parking space dispute, then you're not normal. But the average citizen is normal and would & should worry about criminal prosecution, civil suits, etc. which is why there aren't an epidemic proportion of citizens with concealed carry permits going around shooting up their cities after at least 10+ years of liberal CCW permit policies throughout many, many States now.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Self defense is described as the maximum amount of force necessary to defeat an opponent. I.E. if they are not armed and attack you, and you pull out your gun, shoot and kill them, then you are going to prison, because the amount of force you used was unnecessary.

This is how you describe it, but not most laws. If someone is unarmed and they attack you and you are in reasonable fear for your life and shoot him, it will depend on local laws whether or not you face inprisonment. In Illinois you will likely face jail time; in Florida, probably not.
That's why you have to know what the law (and the jury) will consider reasonable force for self-defense.

 

[Mz1]

This is how you describe it, but not most laws. If someone is unarmed and they attack you and you are in reasonable fear for your life and shoot him, it will depend on local laws whether or not you face inprisonment. In Illinois you will likely face jail time; in Florida, probably not.
That's why you have to know what the law (and the jury) will consider reasonable force for self-defense.

Also, don't forget public outcry can affect current, existing laws. Like the case of Zimmerman shooting and killing Trevon in Florida, claiming that he was fearing for his life. The Police didn't arrest Zimmerman based on Florida's "Stand Your Ground" doctrine, but public outcries from Civil Rights leaders turned the tide against Zimmerman.

 

[zilverkakashi]

uhmmm i have a small knife as well but i rarely bring it. i only choose to do so if i feel like it... our area is always very dangerous though... but most of the time i choose to bring a ballpen (common object) for self defense or a small tactical flashlight... a nail cutter would be useful as well but sometimes metal detectors in malls can detect it lol but i prefer a pen or a flashlight