The Disadvantage of Carrying Weapons

[JR 137]

I'll have to disagree on this one, DD. A simple safety will often confound new gun users. Grip safeties sometimes cause them problems because they don't hold the gun right. The cocking grip on my Ortgies has kept it from being fired by both new users and the guy who stole it from my dad many years ago. A decocking lever can get tripped in the takeaway (like the safety could), and I've seen new users fail to cock a gun.

I thought that way too, however if the attacker has drawn the weapon already, the weapon is most likely cocked and the safety has been deactivated. Usually all that’s left is pointing it and pulling the trigger.

The only guns I’ve fired are an AR-15, SKS, and 7mm magnum. They’re all different in the safety and cocking. If I was pointing one at you and you took it from me, all you’d have to do at that point is aim and fire. Unless of course i skipped a step when I drew it.

But I’ve never fired a hand gun. I’m pretty sure I could aim and pull the trigger, but if I’ve never fired any real gun, it may not go that way, especially under stress.

 

[Steve]

Steve, I'm actually curious what you see as differentiating the two. I can see some important differences, but I'd view them as different aspects of the same topic.

Alright. Couple of quick disclaimers. It was truly intended to be a simple point, to try and avoid the general path these threads go down, which is to confuse home defense and the issues that surround folks packing heat.

Dirty Dog went straight for the most superficial, possibly because it's one of the only things home defense and CCW have in common. The actual tool is the same... but even that's not true. I mean, sure, a handgun is a viable home defense weapon, but the "experts," including on this forum, have suggested that a shotgun is very effective for home use because of its lower penetration and relative ease of use in a crisis for people who aren't using guns all the time. Conversely, a shotgun isn't a practical weapon for CCW. So, I mean, sure. If you're looking to stir the pot, you could trivialize the issue and score a minor point by saying that the weapons are the same, even though they really aren't.

But beyond this, just give some thought to the issues surrounding each. Statistically, most people who use their weapons for self defense are in their homes. The fundamental nature of the types of crimes is different. The weapons are different (unless you're just arguing to argue). The strategies and tactics involved are different. Even the laws are different, both governing the use of force and of ownership. Just not the same things.

I'll answer your question with a question. in what meaningful way are they the same? I can only think of one that is specific to the USA, and that's the argument for the 2nd amendment right to bear arms, and that's more of a political discussion than a self defense related discussion. .

 

[CB Jones]

a shotgun isn't a practical weapon for CCW.

Unless you are Antonio Banderas in Desperado.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I thought that way too, however if the attacker has drawn the weapon already, the weapon is most likely cocked and the safety has been deactivated. Usually all that’s left is pointing it and pulling the trigger.

The only guns I’ve fired are an AR-15, SKS, and 7mm magnum. They’re all different in the safety and cocking. If I was pointing one at you and you took it from me, all you’d have to do at that point is aim and fire. Unless of course i skipped a step when I drew it.

But I’ve never fired a hand gun. I’m pretty sure I could aim and pull the trigger, but if I’ve never fired any real gun, it may not go that way, especially under stress.

That's why I made the comment about what can happen during the take-away. When stripping the gun from their hand, small levers can easily be moved. The de-cocking lever on the 1911 I used to own would be a good example. In taking it, if there was any struggle at all, all it would take is a small amount of force (a hand sliding across it would work - it's designed to be easily operated with a thumb) to de-cock the gun. Then pulling the trigger would do nothing (it was single-action only, meaning the hammer must be cocked to fire it). The de-cocking button on my Ortgies is similarly easy to engage (for the same reason).

I'd guess the vast majority of the time, the gun would be ready to fire after a takeaway. But almost certainly not every time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Alright. Couple of quick disclaimers. It was truly intended to be a simple point, to try and avoid the general path these threads go down, which is to confuse home defense and the issues that surround folks packing heat.

Dirty Dog went straight for the most superficial, possibly because it's one of the only things home defense and CCW have in common. The actual tool is the same... but even that's not true. I mean, sure, a handgun is a viable home defense weapon, but the "experts," including on this forum, have suggested that a shotgun is very effective for home use because of its lower penetration and relative ease of use in a crisis for people who aren't using guns all the time. Conversely, a shotgun isn't a practical weapon for CCW. So, I mean, sure. If you're looking to stir the pot, you could trivialize the issue and score a minor point by saying that the weapons are the same, even though they really aren't.

But beyond this, just give some thought to the issues surrounding each. Statistically, most people who use their weapons for self defense are in their homes. The fundamental nature of the types of crimes is different. The weapons are different (unless you're just arguing to argue). The strategies and tactics involved are different. Even the laws are different, both governing the use of force and of ownership. Just not the same things.

I'll answer your question with a question. in what meaningful way are they the same? I can only think of one that is specific to the USA, and that's the argument for the 2nd amendment right to bear arms, and that's more of a political discussion than a self defense related discussion. .

I can add some thoughts to how they differ (more likely to have people you care about within firing range, less likely the gun is actually on your hip, perhaps easier to make the determination that it's time to shoot). The meaningful ways they are similar would include being in fear of real harm (for yourself or another), probably some confusing circumstances, having to worry about innocents being shot, the problems with bringing a gun to bear quickly, the psychological aftermath, the legal aftermath (perhaps less of an issue in one's own home), etc.

 

[drop bear]

Unless you are Antonio Banderas in Desperado.

Or chopper reid

 

[drop bear]

Well seeing as he has pulled a gun on me I'm guessing he's not interested in my witty banter

So you are disengaging backwards. He is engaging forwards? Who can cover more ground more effectively?

Personally I think you missing the weapon retention phase.

 

[Steve]

I can add some thoughts to how they differ (more likely to have people you care about within firing range, less likely the gun is actually on your hip, perhaps easier to make the determination that it's time to shoot). The meaningful ways they are similar would include being in fear of real harm (for yourself or another), probably some confusing circumstances, having to worry about innocents being shot, the problems with bringing a gun to bear quickly, the psychological aftermath, the legal aftermath (perhaps less of an issue in one's own home), etc.

Some good observations. I hope this isn't belaboring the point, but I think it's important to distinguish between "similar" and "the same."

For example, yeah, the fear of real harm would be the same. But that's not unique to firearm situations. This is a great point. don't get me wrong. It's just not a "guns at home" or "guns out and about" observation. It's a "I'm in danger anywhere" observation.

Confusing circumstances is, again, a good "big bucket" observiation. But when you start to get into the circumstances, there is no overlap. Same with identifying innocents. in a home, knowing who the bad guys are is very clear. Not always so clear when you're not at home. And as you note, legality is another big bucket item but only really that there are legal concerns. The actual legal concerns are very different in each situation.

 

[CB Jones]

So you are disengaging backwards. He is engaging forwards? Who can cover more ground more effectively?

Personally I think you missing the weapon retention phase.

I'm disengaging wherever I can create distance.

Every weapon retention drill we have ever done has centered on disengaging and creating distance and putting shots on the target if it keeps attacking.

Why would I stay physically engaged with a gun in my hand only to have to keep fighting for retention. I'd rather some space to allow me to operate the weapon.

 

[drop bear]

I'm disengaging wherever I can create distance.

Every weapon retention drill we have ever done has centered on disengaging and creating distance and putting shots on the target if it keeps attacking.

Why would I stay physically engaged with a gun in my hand only to have to keep fighting for retention. I'd rather some space to allow me to operate the weapon.

Because the best time to attack a guy is straight after you have broken free from the grapple. Especially if they are backpedaling.

 

[CB Jones]

Because the best time to attack a guy is straight after you have broken free from the grapple. Especially if they are backpedaling.

I will agree with that if you are grappling without a gun.

But with a gun in your hand.....why take the chance of him taking it from you and killing you with it.

Instead I'm creating distance and ending the fight immediately with lethal force or his cooperation.

I'm not playing the game of who is the best at weapon retention.

 

[drop bear]

I will agree with that if you are grappling without a gun.

But with a gun in your hand.....why take the chance of him taking it from you and killing you with it.

Instead I'm creating distance and ending the fight immediately with lethal force or his cooperation.

I'm not playing the game of who is the best at weapon retention.

Provided the gun works when you pull the trigger

 

[CB Jones]

Provided the gun works when you pull the trigger

True.....and if I can't get it to fire.....If I can.....I'm tossing it and going hands on.

I don't want to get into a weapon retention struggle that I could possibly lose with a gun I can't operate but he can.

 

[drop bear]

True.....and if I can't get it to fire.....If I can.....I'm tossing it and going hands on.

I don't want to get into a weapon retention struggle that I could possibly lose with a gun I can't operate but he can.

See. I really don't think you can catch a punch. So the safest place from a retention point of view is that gun moving at speed towards the other guys head. Especially if he is trying for the gun because then his hands are not near his head.

Otherwise a gun works best when it is stationary but is at that point easiest to grab.

Now you bring it in to your hip and fence with your other hand but the opportunity is still there.

Worse of course if you get exited and point the gun straight out in front and hold it steady.

It is one of those things that shooting relies on opposing mechanics to fighting. And so when you go from one to the other is important.

 

[CB Jones]

See. I really don't think you can catch a punch. So the safest place from a retention point of view is that gun moving at speed towards the other guys head. Especially if he is trying for the gun because then his hands are not near his head.

While I agree about catching it you can be tackled clinched and then get into a game of wrestling for the gun....which is the most common way someone tries to take your gun.

Otherwise a gun works best when it is stationary but is at that point easiest to grab

Gun isn't stationary.....you are moving while firing, and you can move the gun from extended to close to your chest to your hip.

I also don't think it would be that easy to grab once you start firing it. That gun firing would be pretty nerve wrecking.

Worse of course if you get exited and point the gun straight out in front and hold it steady.

But that goes to proper tactics and retention....in close quarters why would you extend the gun out...at that range there is no reason to use sights or aim. Inside 5 yards, I am keeping the gun close to my chest and firing while moving.


I think alot it is also our backgrounds...you are more comfortable engaging physically due to your grappling background whereas I'm more comfortable running that gun while moving due to background in firearms.